Best Of
Re: Hissing Air Vents
My vents hiss also. I have new mains vents less than a year old, new vari-valve radiator vents (less than 2 years old). My system is set to cut in a .5 with a differential of 1.5. Every radiator hisses in sync. Why? I took off the main vents and blew into them and they appear to be doing their job. Ideas? Is there a way to install extra main vents without any modifications to the piping? (Such as using a t, angle, and nipple?)
Re: Can I run a spacepak heat pump system concurrently with my two-pipe steam boiler?
I have to confess, @ethicalpaul , that I have never quite managed to understand why one would deliberately underdesign something. Whether it is a heating system, or a bridge, or an airplane. Gross overdesign, yes, I do think that is silly (and sometimes counterproductive), but deliberate underdesign? There may be a small capital cost advantage to underdesign, but not an installation difference (unless the underdesign is large, in which case, at least as an engineer, you should lose your license) and the running costs will be very similar.
So why the hair shirt?
Re: Pushed off till 2028, but still here
As a Massachusetts homeowner, engineer, and concerned inhabitant of a warming planet, I'll venture to make a few comments.
As an engineer, I've read the science, and it's clear that human-generated greenhouse gases are warming the planet (in general, though some local effects vary). It's also clear that there may be other mechanisms like methane release from warming permafrost that can amplify/accelerate the warming trend. But while the rate and ultimate severity of warming is difficult to predict, the fact that it's happening now, and what the root causes are, aren't seriously debatable.
What is debatable is what should we do about it, who pays for it, and what are reasonable costs for governments to levy on citizens. We will all have different answers to those questions depending on our points of view, financial situation, etc.
In my case here in MA, our 100-year-old 4-unit condo building burns oil for heat. A few years ago I looked into converting our boilers to gas, but some of the price quotes I got were ridiculous. I finally gave up. In retrospect that was fortunate, because last winter natural gas prices in eastern MA rose sharply as utilities tried to recoup the costs of upgrading aging delivery infrastructure. So we still burn oil, about 1200 gallons per year.
I also looked into converting to hydronic heat pumps. Our original cast iron radiators would be ideal for heating the building with low-temperature (120 degree) water heated by air-to-water heat pump. I contacted a local heat pump expert and was told that such a conversion would probably cost somewhere in the $50k-$100k range as a rough ballpark. As we are a condo association with 4 owners, most of whom do not have a clear idea how long they will be here, a potential $25k hit for an energy conversion of dubious payback is a non-starter. So until the cost of air-to-water heat pumps comes down drastically, this is not an economically feasible option.
@DCContrarian generously offered to run some numbers on potential heat pump energy savings for us, and I can find that post now, but as I recall, his numbers showed only a few hundred dollars per year potential cost savings. So not only would the conversion cost be astronomical, the payback in cost savings would be minimal.
So I understand people's frustration with "mandates" geared towards shifting to heat pumps. In some areas it does seem to make sense. Maine is adopting residential heat pumps at record rates, and they have incentives that both lower the cost of conversion and lower the cost of the electricity to run them. So Maybe Maine has figured out a reasonable system that other states could learn from.
Here in Massachusetts, as I understand it, the Clean Heat standard would not force homeowners like us to convert to heat pumps. Rather, it would require energy providers (like our oil company) to "earn" clean heat credits by weatherizing/insulating homes, installing heat pumps for homeowners who want them, etc. And yes, energy companies who don't earn enough credits would likely be taxed, with the additional cost passed on to consumers who continue to burn oil and gas.
So we would probably end up paying more for our heating oil, as we have no economical way to convert to heat pumps. Then the question is, what is a reasonable tax amount, and who should pay it? I recognize that our oil consumption, and my gas-burning car, are heating the atmosphere in a way that's likely to severly impact future generations. Unfortunately I can't convert to less impactful heating and driving systems right now, so I'm willing to pay a reasonable tax that would incentivize/help others to make that conversion. What is a reasonable tax, and who should be required to pay it, are reasonable questions that different people will answer differently.
Re: Shutting off a two-pipe steam radiator
Yours is not a true two pipe system. It's what is called a two pipe air vvent system, and came earlier. They usually work pretty well…
In direct answer to the valves, if you want to shut off a radiator, yes — you have to close BOTH valves. But… you need to be quite sure that both valves are, in fact, steam tight. Otherwise, some steam will enter and condensate will build up — but not be able to escape, which can cause problems. It's a little safer to close the vent and accept a little heat anyway — just like a one pipe system.
On the radiator which doesn't heat. That vent has to be working. If the vent is not open, or is very slow, the radiator won't heat much — as you are observing. Again, this is much more like a one pipe system than a two pipe system.
Re: Radiant under-floor system
Sharing a few standard and code facts:
ASHRAE Std. 55 "Thermal Environmental Conditions for Human Occupancy" mandates a maximum floor temp of 29C (85F) in occupied areas; perimeter areas are not covered by this and could be warmer if needed.
IAPMO UMC and USHGC codes includes this limit plus higher floor temp limits for other areas. CSA B214 matches the IAPMO codes. These are maximums, if you need that much heat. It's better to spread the heat through more floor or wall area than to overheat the main occupied area.
Extract from 2024 USHGC shown for reference:
Re: Indirect water tank
A hybrid heat pump water heater is the worst water heaters. I can't even tell you how many have failed and are running in full electric mode. I can't overstate the amount of compressor failures that are out there. every manufacturers are having compressor failures. i just had to switch over one to full electric mode due to compressor failure and the landlords would rather wait for a complete tank failure than replace the water heater under warranty. Don't take my word for it. just look it up. A O smith has an error code that is turning into an internet joke.
Re: Sizing new boiler: discrepancies among my calculations and bids
A little more info that might be of help to you.You might want to take a look at this link on insulation:
http://www.heatinghelp.com/article/325/Piping/300/Why-you-should-insulate-steam-pipes
My mains were well insulated and I just had my near boiler piping bare and was presently surprised at the noticeable difference it made insulating the bare piping. Insulation is a large "bang for the buck". Read back a few weeks - "Crash" did a great post with a lot of info on insulation.
From what I can see there seems to be a big tendency to keep adding multiple
"fudge" factors to the boiler size. You have to be cautious about doing this as it results in a oversized boiler with the corresponding higher fuel use. If you haven't read it yet the following link is to a great article by Dave Bunnell, "Boilerpro" on boiler sizing.
http://www.heatinghelp.com/article/323/Boilers/1551/Taking-Another-Look-at-Steam-Boiler-Sizing-Methods-by-Dave-Boilerpro-Bunnell
- Rod
Re: Cracked bonnet nut
usually overtightening, they split somewhat easily if you just crank on them instead of fixing why they aren't sealing.
Re: Short cycling+ unbalanced heat
I might add that a 3/4" copper pipe can move about 40,000 BTU of heat. Your boiler can deliver 100,000 BTUs of heat, The WM WGO-3 has a Net output of 100,000 BTU. That is about 250% more capacity than the output of a 3/4" copper pipe can handle. You are correct about choking the piping down before it splits into the two different loops. Even if you had a smaller firing rate, the lowest recommended NET output would be 85,000 BTU. and that is still more than 200% oversized for the 3/4" pipe.
The first step is to get the near boiler piping correct. With two 3/4" loops from the boiler to the tee where they spit should be a minimum of 1" copper pipe. A 1" copper shared pipe can handle about 80,000 BTU and as @hot_rod indicated you have about 80,000 of heat emitters, so that would balance out just fine.
The next problem is the first floor being too cold. Well that is a matter of your thermostat setting. Set the thermostat where you are comfortable on the first floor. When the second floor gets too hot, you can close the air damper on each radiator unit to minimize the output of that particular radiator section. Some rooms on the second floor may get too hot and shutting off the air flow thru the radiator will cut as much as 70% of the radiator's heating output. There will always be radiant heat from that hot surface but the convection air flow is most of the output. Stop the air flow and you stop the heat flow.
EDIT:
Looking at the cycle timing of the burner seems to prove that the piping is too small. During a call for heat after the boiler is up to the high limit temperature, the run time to off time ratio is almost 2 to 1 Off to On. that bears out the fact the the pipe is too small by a ratio of 2 to 1. Get a bigger pipe and you will move more heat.
There is one other thing to look at. If your home actually needs 80,000 BTUh of heat on the coldest day or the winter (which it most likely does not), you may find that your radiators can not make the home reach the thermostat set-point on the very cold days. You may need 50,000 when it gets near zero outside but the thermostat will never go above 65° since you are only moving 40,000 BTUh of heat. That might be enough for a 65° temperature difference (∆T) when you actually need 70° ∆T. If it goes below zero to -5° then the home will only get to 60° inside … and so on. You need a bigger pipe
Re: Symmons Diverter Still Leaking
"My symptoms were when water was diverted to the shower head there was some still flowing to the tub spout."
That's the way they're supposed to work. According to Symmons, they say a "pencil width" stream is considered normal. I describe it as something more than a dribble.
MaxMercy



