Best Of
Re: any risk associated with a properly executed TSP cleaning?
The boiler water chemistry presented in the thread is entirely valid with one major caveat:
Many sectional boilers of the type used for residential heating have, for the last 20-to-30 years, employed elastomer or other types of polymer compounds for sealing the sections together rather than the older "push nipple" approach where a tight metal-to-metal seal is established. The merits and detriments of this approach are discussed in other threads, but anyone considering an alkaline boiler water treatment program should first determine the type of seal present in the target boiler.
Hydroxide alkalinity will damage and eventually destroy any type of polymer seal and is only appropriate for push-nipple sealed boilers. The Weil McLain E-9 discussed above is a 50-year-old push-nipple boiler and can tolerate and benefit from a TSP and sodium hydroxide treatment, where perhaps a majority of newer boilers are gasket-seal boilers that would potentially be destroyed by such a water program.
With that in mind, it is likely that Steamaster Tablets as discussed are probably safe for use in gasket-seal boilers as the active ingredient is primarily of Sodium Nitrite. The formulation of Steamaster does not promote the high pH that results in a hydroxide alkalinity equilibrium. Observed Steamaster pH is in the vicinity of 9.0, below the aforementioned threshold. Sodium nitrite promotes the formation of a magnetite (black) iron oxide layer on the waterside surface which protects the metal from detrimental hematite (red) iron oxidation.
This posting is not meant to attract further comment but is intended as a warning to anyone who might come across this thread via a search engine such as Google.
Binnacle
Re: any risk associated with a properly executed TSP cleaning?
Starting with the results: Brilliant! Steam is much drier and the entire system sounds dramatically better. Sound of water boiling in the vessel is mellow and almost inaudible. Much less swooshing in the risers and radiators. Sound of steam entering the most troublesome radiator actually sounds dry, if such a thing is possible. Bouncing of level-gauge water is almost gone. Probably the planned spring opening of the skim port and skimming will move the boiler's behavior into the realm of perfection.
Now for the effort:
Let the boiler cool for three hours after a cycle, water temp was 130 degrees, then drained and filled it with fresh hot water via the top relief-valve union. Not much rust and other junk in the water due to earlier drains and fills and keeping the pH between 9 and 11 the last few weeks.
Added five ounces TSP and ended up with a pH of 10, P-alkalinity of 222, M-alkalinity of 660 leaving OH-alkalinity zero with a big P*2-M negative bias of 216.
So it occurred to me that the two-cup prescription takes into account that much of the TSP will immediately react with oil and other contaminants and the high alkalinity seen with pure water and 0.25% TSP in a pot is not representative. Decided to go big and ended up adding 20 ounces (2.5 cups) of TSP in two increments. Ended up with
P 672
M 1665
OH 0
pH 11
which still has a substantial way to go before becoming caustic. Found a recommendation for cleaning with 5000 ppm TSP and 20oz in 20
gallons is 6000 ppm--not way off that
http://www.steamesteem.com/feedwater/boiling-out.html
What makes TSP safe for an old system is a) not supplementing TSP with caustic lye (sodium hydroxide) and b) monitoring the pH and not letting it get past 11 or so. What's happening here is that the boiler is, in effect, being washed out with mild detergent solution.
Kept the water at between 190 and 200 degree for two hours after the final TSP addition, and the entire cleaning ran for about four hours.
When draining saw virtually zero particles and no rust whatsoever--almost perfectly clean. Drain water had a dark tinge indicating, I believe, dissolved oil.
Discovered through recent reading that TSP is considered an excellent boiler water additive. Strong positive experience reported right here on HH:
http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/91982/Sodium-Nitrate-in-Steam-Boilers
The US Navy uses primarily TSP and some additional soda ash for all marine boilers, preferring to keep the pH close to 10.5 to minimize the risk of tiny eddies of caustic water in the nooks and crannies of their large boilers. I prefer a pH of 11 for the small low-pressure boiler here as do many others. Keeping the concentration of phosphate in the boiler at around 60 ppm does an excellent job of protecting the boiler from various forms of water-related nastiness.
After filling I added three ounces of Savogran to obtain about 60 ppm of phosphate (6.9g per 4oz noted on side of box) plus three Steamaster tables. After a day two teaspoons sodium hydroxide dissolved in a quart of water to bring the caustic up. Now have
P 342
M 600
OH 84
pH 11
and after another day plan on another teaspoon of sodium hydroxide or two to bring caustic into the 150-300 ppm range.
I've decide that sodium nitrate from the Steamaster tables is superfluous here since I will monitor the pH and anything over 9 or so completely inhibits oxidation regardless of how the pH is achieved. Also switching to pure TSP with the idea that total alkalinity can be kept lower with optimal phosphate and hydroxide alkalinity if the sodium nitrate and sodium sesquicarbonate are eliminated. So in a week or so I'll drain and refill again, adding just pure TSP (on order) and sodium hydroxide. Draining after running with some phosphate should knock down further any oil residual left behind by the cleaning. As I understand it the oil will end up as soap in solution and depart peaceably with the drainwater.
I would still highly recommend Steamaster tablets as the treatment of choice for the less-obsessed. The sodium nitrite works by scavenging dissolved oxygen in boiler water, thus inhibiting rust, and by biasing the pH to somewhere between 9 and 10, a reasonable range especially for the typical situation where no one is monitoring the water. However I agree with the HH consensus that one-to-two tablets per 100 MHB or 10 gallons of water is the correct dose and the Steamaster label directions are excessive.
A note for anyone who contemplates a similar approach: Even one teaspoon of sodium hydroxide dissolved in a quart of water results in a highly caustic solution with a pH up around 14. Even when pored into vessel and mixed with the existing boiler water, the concentration might still be high enough to do some damage. So one should always follow the addition of hydroxide solution with a fair amount of make-up water or recycled blow-down water to disperse the caustic solution quickly. Then immediately cycle the boiler to further disperse the hydroxide. The Navy considers it too risky to use sodium hydroxide for the aforementioned reasons. This makes sense considering the high capital cost of their equipment and the extreme rate of job assignment turnover in ranks as crew are trained for various tasks and rotated constantly. Too easy for inexperienced or careless crew members to damage a boiler.
Attached are a graph that show the fundamental pH chemistry of water (found at http://www.sprungtraining.com/messageboards/tabid/73/forumid/14/postid/175/view/topic/default.aspx) and Navy document showing the effects of pH in boilers. In addition here is a helpful paragraph from a Navy boiler operations manual. Much additional information may be found by searching on "COPHOS boiler".
https://www.google.com/search?q=COPHOS+boiler
-----
Boiler Water
The boiler acts as a concentrator for all the materials which the feed system pours into it. All contaminants remain in the boiler and produce damaging conditions. In order to minimize these, boiler water treatment programs have been established. The present standard Navy treatment is based on a regimen known as coordinate phosphate – pH control (more simply, COPHOS) to serve several purposes:
1. Maintain the pH and phosphate levels so that caustic corrosion cannot occur.
2. Maintain the pH sufficiently high to limit corrosion and to protect against acid-forming magnesium reactions by forming magnesium hydroxide (Mg(OH)2) sludge.
3. Maintain a phosphate residual in the water sufficient to precipitate calcium and magnesium as phosphate sludges which are less adherent than scale.
Binnacle
Re: 3 way valve stopping flow?
I think you are asking too much of the one mix valve. 3 low temps zones should = 3 mix valves.
Another option would be a Taco injection set up. This will allow a significant amount of more flow.
kcopp
Re: I'm getting solar panels. I'll let you know how it goes in this discussion thread.
I used one of those to get my annual usage numbers up prior to sizing! (And still have one of course)
Re: Let me try this again, this time with a 1" supply pipe. Surely that will cause trouble!
Thanks for all the replies everyone. I have a few of your questions to answer, I'll hit them all in one reply here
https://www.tfi-everhot.com/anti-surge-steam-separator.html
Does anyone ever recommend those to homeowners with surging problems? That might be less costly than replacing all the undersized/badly installed near-boiler piping. Because as you showed, if you have clean dry steam, pipe size doesn't matter much.
I personally wouldn't recommend this item. I find it unnecessary because every boiler can run cleanly without carryover if it's just piped with the manufacturer's recommendation. And as my videos are showing, you can be way below those recommendations and still be fine.
PhilKulkarniMember Posts:97December 24
I would appreciate if someone clarified what good water quality means. If it means no oil on the water surface and a PH above 7 then I have it in my 63-03 boiler.
To me, it means water that boils cleanly—no oil, and no other contaminants that would cause carryover.
The next term I seek clarity on is surging. If it means the water line fluctuates more than +/- 0.25” when the boiler is operating then I have no surging, but my water line is approx 2.5” from the bottom of the sight glass. Does this mean I have significant carryover? I do get a fair amount of rust despite using 8-way. I am using distilled water to refill after draining the rust once a month. Could the carryover be caused by suspended rust particles?
I think you should start another thread with your issues listed and your questions. There is kind of too much to unpack and address here in my thread. But I will say this: If your water line varies less than an inch during your call for heat, then you aren't surging/carrying over to a significant degree and you are probably OK. Don't drain your boiler once a month. I think carryover can occur due to too much "gunk" in your water. And why is your water line 2.5" from the bottom of the gauge glass? That is lower than I like to have it for sure.
EBEBRATT-EdMember Posts:19,553December 24
The Thermoflow thing is just a "slow place in the road" to let the steam rise and the water to drop out. Same thing a header does.
I have always felt that riser size may be more important than the header. Why use the header to separate the water and steam/? Keep the water in the boiler where it belongs.
This is a great point. It is my belief that if you pipe it as recommended, the header will never even be necessary. I have a ton of videos showing no water even getting into the risers, let alone the header. This is why tons of boilers don't even have headers and still work great.
ChrisJMember Posts:17,067December 24edited December 24
I've personally watched an improperly piped boiler (no header at all) blow a ton of water up into the main and shutdown on low water. Would this happen if it had a proper header and equalizer, or would it all return quick enough to prevent the LWCO from tripping?@ethicalpaulHave you tested that yet? I can't remember.
If the boiler was carrying over a bunch of water then my experiments show it had "bad water". In all my videos, we can see that when the water is OK there is nary a drop that appears in the supplies where my sight glasses begin. On my old boiler it could run with bad water getting carried over to the main and returning back via the return without triggering the LWCO, but depending on the amount of main and amount of water the LWCO could definitely trigger during heavy carryover.
jesmed1Member Posts:1,277December 24edited December 24
If headers are successful at removing water, why did Dan say in LAOSH that many of the steam guys he met were using anti-surge tanks? Maybe in theory headers were supposed to be removing all the water, but in practice apparently they weren't. Maybe the surging was so bad due to poor water quality that it would overwhelm even properly sized/designed risers and headers, and the anti-surge tank was just a band-aid for dirty water?
Just because Dan said many steam guys were using anti-surge tanks doesn't mean those tanks were necessary or a good idea.
If the water is good, the header doesn't even see any water. My videos have been showing this for several years, since I installed my new boiler. Those guys were either experiencing, or were afraid of bad water causing carryover. In my video where I added a little cutting oil into my boiler, the carryover was pretty bad (not bad enough to overwhelm my drop header's ability to separate the water). If the water is REAL bad, like sudsy or really oily, it can definitely overwhelm a manufacturer-specified header with carryover. In my opinion, all those guys had to do was properly wash out and skim every new boiler and they wouldn't have any problem.
jesmed1Member Posts:1,277December 24@ChrisJ
I was commenting on@PhilKulkarni's third paragraph where he was commenting on the effect of using a 3-inch riser vs. the 2-inch spec, and he said "Yet, despite a 55.6% reduction in exit steam velocity, I get wet steam- steam that is not 100% vapor."
I saw that and forgot to mention it. My question to @PhilKulkarni would be: how do you know you get wet steam that is not 100% vapor? As I hope you all know, I do not like the term "wet steam"—please state the behavior or phenomenon that you are observing instead of this term that is at best a catch-all and at worst, completely erroneous.
EastmanMember Posts:968December 24
Great video. What's next?
Thank you but dang it's Christmas haha
EBEBRATT-EdMember Posts:19,553December 24
I just remember the Weil McLain video with the glass piped boiler that is still (probably) circulating on you tube it's probably 15-20 years old. That thing was throwing a lot of water.
It is a mystery I have seen horribly piped boilers with no kind of water treatment or blow down work absolutely fine. You stare at them and say it can't work but it does.
The Weil-McLain guys were just putting on a show. They ran the PSI up to 5 or 10 and then threw open the exit valve. No boiler could ever avoid carryover with that practice. When the interior of the boiler went from whatever pressure it was to atmospheric pressure, all the water in there which was well above 212F more or less instantly flashed to steam and shot out.
I think if there were a sight glass on those poorly-piped boilers, you'd see that there was simply no water being thrown up the supply just like we see on my boiler.
STEAM DOCTORMember Posts:2,509December 24
Need to be totally honest. I didn't watch the video (yet). I have long wondered about the 15 ft per second rule. That rule was "established" in a previous generation, when steam boilers had humongous steam chests. If those boilers needed piping that would sustain 15 ft per second, then what would our boilers, with their relatively tiny steam chest, need. 10 ft per second, 5 ft per second..... We all know that's not the case. I think a lot of the old rules of thumb, were instituted to cover all types of situations. The idea is basically give blanket rules for everything, and then you will always be safe. Will cover for bad water quality, overfired boilers, under piped or poorly boilers, undervented systems, tiny residential and humongous commercial and everything in between. Sort of like the speed limits. They don't always make sense. We all know that when it's 2:00 in the morning and the roads are totally empty and clear and straight, the rush hour speed limit doesn't make much sense. But it's one blanket rule to cover all scenarios.
This exactly matches my thinking. I think their engineers were quite conservative in order to give everything the best possible chance to work. And when the water is good, we see boilers with even crazy bad piping work. When the water is pretty bad, boilers still work. Only when the water is really bad (oily, sudsy, gunky) do we see carryover that is bad enough to make the level in the gauge glass drop.
Re: Heating and Cooling Options for 1850s Greek Revival New York
Cedric's home is a 7,000 livable square foot house, built originally around 1780 as a pretty typical post and beam four square and added onto as recently as 1893. It is on the National Register of Historic Places — which is both a plus and a minus. Mostly plus.
Steam heat (1930, Hoffman Equipped, mostly unaltered) plus a minisplit in an apartment. Mostly uninsulated, as it just isn't practical. Almost all windows are original; in one small area some top end modern windows were installed about 30 years ago. They have already failed; won't make that mistake again.
Someone up there mentioned spray foaming a rock and mortar basement wall. Be careful. If you have any water intrusion, yo may regret it.
Re: Heating and Cooling Options for 1850s Greek Revival New York
First — Do no harm. Go slow. Old houses leak — you most likely will never need mechanical air change. Live with the house one season — what works and does not. What rooms are cold or hot and ask why. Fixing the homes easy envelope problems will provide energy saving all year and provide greater comfort — fewer drafts. You must get a proper load done on the house … what does each room need for heating and cooling — what will the whole house require.
I'm an old house guy and a serial remodeler — it's a sickness. You name it, I have most likely done one. I have also always had the $$ to mostly do what I thought was correct. Learned that I was not always correct. I also learned that many so called professionals were also not correct. Especially when it came to higher end equipment and complex systems.
Unless something is really odd with the piping or the load comes back huge — my guess the future is only one boiler. You do not want to remove the CI radiators. Please do not remove them. Natural gas is going to be the cheapest "fuel" to run that single boiler when time comes. What is the size of the newer boiler in the house? How does it line up to the homes need when you get that heat load done? How old are the oil tanks .. Are both the same age ?
I still own one of my first projects because part of it is a home office — a big stone monster in Chestnut Hill (Philadelphia). It still has the same two Buderus boilers from the early 90's — the indirect has been replaced. The reason for two boilers was as much for the way the piping worked in the basement and how the house was going to be used … also fewer ways to control systems back in 1994. The cost was also not that much greater because the big boiler required was expensive. I also agree that the old simple boilers were great — especially the Buderus that could run low temp water with outdoor reset to the radiators. You will not find those boilers today although controls are available to mix water and get the lower temp water. Having outdoor reset to the C system will provide comfort and fuel savings using what you have.
How you heat the domestic water is math. What does it cost to provide what you need — I have always put in an indirect if I have a boiler. But — do the math. In some cases heat pump units are almost free — what will it cost to install and run. What is the temp of the basement ? Spray foam can work well in many areas but you do need to understand how that effects the foundation if stone — it needs to be sealed outside. A overly warm basement w/ a heat pump water heater sitting next to the boiler is not a bad idea.
AC — again math. How much do you want to spend. Some homes with big open utility type basements allow for cost effective ductwork. Do not put a system in an uninsulated attic. I did a high velocity system in one house — it was very expensive with some issues but did work (would be my last recommendation) AC is as much about removing humidity as taking heat out of the air — register placement is also not as important as with heat. Do not over size the AC. Mini splits are great problem solvers — I have used them in every house somewhere for the better part of 20 years. Trust me — once installed you never notice them if any thought goes into placement. I'm not a fan of the multi head on one compressor systems — for a few reasons.
TAG
Re: Heating and Cooling Options for 1850s Greek Revival New York
i would keep the rads and put a high efficiency wood pellet boiler in to control your heating costs. I live in an 1830s Greek Revival (also in upstate NY!) that was converted to forced air with two propane furnaces by the prior owner. To heat our 4100 sf home we were burning 500 gallons of propane a month from December through March and 500 gallons during the shoulder months. To control our costs, I installed a 120k BTU boiler (MBTek Phoenix 35) with heat exchangers in both furnace plenums. We figured this would just supplement our propane use but the system is so efficient we no longer need to burn any propane and the boiler heats our entire home on its own. We burn 6-7 tons of pellets a year, keeping our house at 67 degrees from October through April, plus it indirectly heats an attached 1900sf garage and workshop to 50 degrees. This effectively cut our heating costs in a third, easily. The initial cost of our install was more than recovered during our second year, plus there were additional biomass tax deductions realized (not sure if these are set to expire). If you have a rad system, you have the setup that would make adding a pellet boiler even easier and more efficient than starting with forced air.
jdb2919
Re: Air in the heating loop
I use a lawn pump for filling and air removal. It has 125' head. Since I use de-mineralized water with a PH of about 8, I do it this way.
I take a 5 gal bucket fill it with treated (deionized) water, you can use street water depending upon the quality, and I put the suction hose to the pump in the bucket and the pump discharge hose to the circuit that I want to purge. I than take the return from the circuit and put that hose in the 5 gal bucket and I run the pump, adding water to the bucket as it empties. I run it until there aren't any bubbles flowing into the bucket from the return from the circuit. It works great. It takes at least 2ft/sec to remove air in a vertical pipe.
I bought my pump at Lowes. Merry Christmas, one and all.
Re: Carbon monoxide readings from mold
I know if you open up a bag of ground coffee the CO goes crazy. I will check with my medical expert at John Hopkins to see if he has ever checked mold.
