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A Listing of Vapor Systems that don't (yet) appear in "Lost Art"

Steamhead
Steamhead Member Posts: 14,837
edited February 20 in Strictly Steam
Posted in the interest of centralizing links to the ever-expanding number of threads showing Vapor systems we've seen that are not otherwise documented. I'll add to the list as we go, feel free to do the same:

Broomell system with unusual thermostatic radiator traps:
https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/183042/odd-broomell-return-fitting

Dunham model DH Differential Vacuum System, Chicago, IL/Marshalltown, IA:
https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/104173/need-help-understanding-dunham-system
and https://heatinghelp.com/heating-museum/dunham-differential-system/

E. F. Houghton Co., Philadelphia, PA:
https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/170044/e-f-houghton-co

Johns-Manville:
https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/179341/found-a-new-vapor-species-johns-manville-yes-apparently-that-johns-manville/

MILVACO (Milwaukee Valve Co.):
https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/181044/goin-up-the-country-milvaco-vapor-megasteam-rescue

Safety Vapor Heating Co., Buffalo, NY:
https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/177990/remnants-from-an-old-safety-vapor-sytem
and https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/157981/never-a-dull-moment-in-steam-heat
and https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/155727/should-new-traps-get-new-cage-units

Thermograde Valve Co., Boston, MA and Baltimore, MD:
https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/178131/help-me-figure-out-my-2-pipe-system

Triumph Valve Co., Mansfield, OH:
https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/169680/found-a-new-vapor-species-triumph

Tudor system, also known as French or German system: https://heatinghelp.com/heating-museum/european-heating-systems-circa-1907/

Wiley, made by Simplex Steam Specialty Co., Lynchburg, VA:
https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/168769/need-steam-pro-help-in-roanoke-va
and https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/168879/its-a-wiley-simplex-not-a-vapor-regulator-co-system/
Edgar Wiley's patents are here- looks like @StevePajek was way ahead of us:
https://heatinghelp.com/heating-museum/edgar-wiley-vapor-system/
https://heatinghelp.com/heating-museum/wiley-water-seal-radiator-trap/
All Steamed Up, Inc.
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting
ethicalpaulHap_HazzardNew England SteamWorksttekushan_3LS123

Comments

  • DanHolohan
    DanHolohan Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 15,425
    Great idea. Thanks!
    Retired and loving it.
  • Hap_Hazzard
    Hap_Hazzard Member Posts: 2,389
    Reminder: To bookmark this post, click the star to the right of the title heading.

    Just another DIYer | King of Prussia, PA
    1983(?) Peerless G-561-W-S | 3" drop header, CG400-1090, VXT-24
    Double DLS123
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 14,837

    Great idea. Thanks!

    When we get enough of these, it'll be time for "The Lost Art of Steam Heating, Revisited Again".
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • Hap_Hazzard
    Hap_Hazzard Member Posts: 2,389
    Re-revisited? :D
    Just another DIYer | King of Prussia, PA
    1983(?) Peerless G-561-W-S | 3" drop header, CG400-1090, VXT-24
  • DanHolohan
    DanHolohan Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 15,425
    :D
    Retired and loving it.
  • Erin Holohan Haskell
    Erin Holohan Haskell Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 1,696
    In the meantime, we'll add them to the Heating Museum. Thanks, @Steamhead.
    President
    HeatingHelp.com
  • clammy
    clammy Member Posts: 2,666
    Fulton syphon is yet another 2 pipe w very early trv on supply w inverted bucket traps and regular traps mounted above as air vents due to low vent abilities of the inverted bucket traps .it was in a 5 or 6 story commercial building I would guess from the early 1910 or so original coal to oil boiler was still in place non functioning . Peace and good luck clammy
    R.A. Calmbacher L.L.C. HVAC
    NJ Master HVAC Lic.
    Mahwah, NJ
    Specializing in steam and hydronic heating
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 14,837
    ISTR Webster owned Fulton Sylphon for a while..... any Webster gear on that job (vent trap, return trap etc)?
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
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  • clammy
    clammy Member Posts: 2,666
    On the old boiler which was a burmham coal boiler and there was a Webster return trap but some time in the 30sa huge addition was added to the side off the original building which was like I said 5 or 6 stories tall . They installed 2 1 mil fire tube steammers and the addition they built was a chase manhattan bank I believe there was a giant 8 ft tall vault door and the vault was in the basement ,it was like stepping back in history . The new system had I guess re used some of the original rads but they had installed hvac system complete w pneumatic controls steam coils and chilled water coils . All the old stuff was mostly still there including the original belt drive compresssores tube and shell Evaps The original water cooled then tower cooled condenser and tower piping most looked just like the building neglected for decades and purchased for peanuts but aside from the neglect there was a lot of old cool mechanical stuff there but unfortunately most of which was unrepairable and the scope of repairs would have never had any roi for what they wanted . But upon doing some cleaning of some illonis inverted bucket traps and the trap air assemblies ,flushing out of some clogged gravity returns and repairs of some leaks and coil leaks I got steam to every floor after opening all the trv radiator hand valves , I was even impressed that it all worked especially after many many years of at 3 floors of rads being off after opening the hand valves there was heat .Saddest thing is the fire tube boiler went and the building owner figured he could gc it himself added up the 2 boiler and came up w 2.4 mbtu w a non staging powerflame burner you can guess it short cycled especially w over 50% of the radiation disabled to lower the bill . There’s some steam history knuckle heading history from p town Peace and good luck clammy
    R.A. Calmbacher L.L.C. HVAC
    NJ Master HVAC Lic.
    Mahwah, NJ
    Specializing in steam and hydronic heating
  • Double D
    Double D Member Posts: 408
    @Steamhead Here is another one who posted his Safety vapor system on the wall.
    https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/155727/should-new-traps-get-new-cage-units
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 14,837
    Updated.

    So- is the return fitting essentially a water seal with a little hole to let air escape, as in Broomell, VECO etc?
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
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  • Double D
    Double D Member Posts: 408
    That's exactly the way it works. The picture with the pen pointing to the little hole is where the air escapes. The bottom flared portion sits in a water seal. The center is hollow giving the air the path to the dry return. Silkey took pictures with the valve off but the lid still sealed. One from the union connection at the radiator and one from where it threads onto the pipe through the floor.
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 14,837
    Makes perfect sense. We'll never see it all, eh?
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
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  • Double D
    Double D Member Posts: 408
    Probably not but what makes this sight so great is what one hasn't seen there a chance maybe someone else has.
    Dan Foley
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 14,837
    Bump- added links to the Wiley patents.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
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  • Double D
    Double D Member Posts: 408
    edited March 31
    Cayote??
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 14,837
    Double D said:

    Cayote??

    ??????????????????
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
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  • Double D
    Double D Member Posts: 408
    edited March 31
    Oh, Wiley patents. Got it.
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 14,837
    edited October 2020
    Edit- moved Johns-Manville to the main list.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
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  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 14,837
    edited October 2020
    Edit- moved MILVACO to the main list.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
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    ttekushan_3
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 14,837
    edited February 20
    Broomell system with unusual thermostatic radiator traps added to main list.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
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  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 10,268
    "Revisited Again" @DanHolohan

    needs something to keep him busy LOL
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 17,049
    Seems to me a whole chapter on vapour systems might not come amiss -- starting with the basic idea of the things, and then the variations which clever folk came up with? They really aren't quite the same as regular two pipe steam...
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 10,268
    @Jamie Hall

    Seems strange to me that a lot of vapor systems the rare ones especially ....they couldn't have sold many of them because no one has ever seen them. They just pop up here and there. Unless they were ripped out years ago? A lot of those vapor companies must have gone bankrupt from not enough business
  • SlowYourRoll
    SlowYourRoll Member Posts: 125
    anyone can look through the old patents. the key to finding things is getting to know the old US Patent Classification system (or the current Cooperative Patent Classification system). this is the list of classes and titles (USPC Titles). the most relevant ones for steam heating are classes 137, 138, 165, 236, 237, and 251. then you go find a subclass to look through, like 237/67 which is Heating Systems > Steam. then you go over to the USPTO Patent Database advanced search, select "1790 to present" in the Select Years dropdown, then type in "CCL/337/67" into the Query textbox (without the quotation marks).

    it's gonna take you time to get used to it. best thing to do is to play around with it yourself. and it's not for everybody, for someone with a passing interest it might not be worth the time to learn how to use it. but if you're seriously considering writing an article or book chapter on the development of vapor (or any other heating topic), this tool is invaluable. another helpful tip is to narrow things by the date range. so if you wanted to narrow down your search to turn-of-the-century technology, try "CCL/237/67 AND ISD/1/1/1890->12/31/1910"

    the main place for the various steam traps seems to be class 137 and subclasses 154-214. so for example the inverted bucket type traps the search string would be "CCL/137/185 OR CC/137/186."

    i'll have time to answer a couple questions if people have them, but really you should just spend time playing around with it and see what you can figure out on your own. it's probably not worth your time if you're not gonna spend at least a couple hours with it. it's a clunky old system and not that easy to navigate until you get used to it.


    GordoSTEVEusaPACanuckerBrassFinger
  • SlowYourRoll
    SlowYourRoll Member Posts: 125
    also most everything pre-1877 was lost in a fire, so the really really old stuff is tragically lost to history. but just about every patent from 1878 onward is there.
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 17,049
    It's a lot easier to let @DanHolohan do the ;;looking around and write them up in his wonderful style!
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    ratio
  • DanHolohan
    DanHolohan Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 15,425
    😂
    Retired and loving it.
  • jumper
    jumper Member Posts: 1,710

    @Jamie Hall

    Seems strange to me that a lot of vapor systems the rare ones especially ....they couldn't have sold many of them because no one has ever seen them. They just pop up here and there. Unless they were ripped out years ago? A lot of those vapor companies must have gone bankrupt from not enough business

    My guess is that DeadOldGuys just like contractors & engineers today were "persuaded" one way or another to go with what we see today.
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 14,837
    jumper said:

    @Jamie Hall

    Seems strange to me that a lot of vapor systems the rare ones especially ....they couldn't have sold many of them because no one has ever seen them. They just pop up here and there. Unless they were ripped out years ago? A lot of those vapor companies must have gone bankrupt from not enough business

    My guess is that DeadOldGuys just like contractors & engineers today were "persuaded" one way or another to go with what we see today.
    Oh, they're out there- we just need to find them.

    I think the same thing happened with Vapor manufacturers that happened with boiler and radiator manufacturers. When central heating was new, a host of smaller manufacturers sprang up to meet the demand. Remember, the demand was greater than we might think because not only were these systems being installed in new construction, but they were going into existing buildings as well.

    Later on, when the initial demand had been met, there weren't enough sales to support all these companies. So some of the boiler and radiator companies either folded or got absorbed into the larger companies, like American Radiator, National Radiator or United States Radiator. In the case of Vapor companies, it seems they basically folded. The rise of forced-hot-water contributed to Vapor's decline. The only acquisition I can think of was when Dunham bought the remains of Webster in the late 1960s.

    We've seen the same thing in the auto industry. Brands like Duesenberg, Essex, Packard and Studebaker died. Nash, Hudson and Willys combined into American Motors, later swallowed up into Chrysler. In the personal computer industry, AST, Gateway and Zeos are no more. HP bought up Compaq. In all these cases, once the initial demand was met, there weren't enough sales to go around.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
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  • DanHolohan
    DanHolohan Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 15,425
    Yes, and what also happened was the Great Depression and WW2. 
    Retired and loving it.
  • Double D
    Double D Member Posts: 408
    I think I found another vapor system unless someone has heard of Velan. The traps have no thermostatic element. They appear to operate on a water seal. The bottom of the trap says "in Canada". The system has been shut down since the early 70's.
    LS123Erin Holohan Haskell
  • DanHolohan
    DanHolohan Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 15,425
    Nice find! Thanks for sharing. 
    Retired and loving it.
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 10,268
    edited April 1
    @DanHolohan

    I feel a new book out of this :)

    "LAOSH companion "Revisited"?????