Remnants from an old Safety Vapor sytem.

Double D

Haven't been there yet. The owner says there are 2 radiators that no longer heat. I'm surprised to hear that's the only problem after seeing these 2 pictures.

Double D

Does anyone know what the numbers might represent on the air eliminator?

AMservices

> @Double D said:
> Does anyone know what the numbers might represent on the air eliminator?

My guess would be the boilers pressure.

Double D

@AMservices, since this is a 2 pipe orifice system could we assume those numbers mean ounces? I should be able to determine more when I get over there tomorrow.

AMservices

Where this is a vapor system, specifically designed to operate under 16 oz, I'd say yes.

AMservices

Please change that radiator vent their using as a main vent.

Double D

The radiator vent being used as a main was first on the agenda. When the owner said 2 of the radiators that used to work, no longer work my guess was that radiator vent is no longer doing anything. BTW, that's the only vent on the whole system he could show me. There are 2 mains that end at loop seals and no main venting. That's why I was surprised 2 radiators were his only issue.

Steamhead

AMservices said:

Please change that radiator vent their using as a main vent.

This! Perfect place for a Gorton #2.

And @Double D , looks like you've uncovered a new Vapor species. We're looking forward to more pics.

Steamhead

More info on the Safety Vapor system:

https://books.google.com/books?id=ccQ7AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA57&lpg=PA57&dq=safety+vapor+heating+co+buffalo+ny&source=bl&ots=IYAwpUpO3n&sig=ACfU3U0iLhrQr6JNVOEup5Ln97b-FLSHgw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjzw6r8w5jmAhVmmuAKHVy2AFoQ6AEwAHoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=safety vapor heating co buffalo ny&f=false

https://books.google.com/books?id=ExdHAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA18&lpg=PA18&dq=safety+vapor+heating+co+buffalo+ny&source=bl&ots=TLqk1-VCLz&sig=ACfU3U2VRj-ifJD1a1IO2Q01CSkrnIuhZg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjzw6r8w5jmAhVmmuAKHVy2AFoQ6AEwAnoECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=safety vapor heating co buffalo ny&f=false

Patent number is here:

https://books.google.com/books?id=s3NGAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA788&lpg=PA788&dq=safety+vapor+heating+co+buffalo+ny&source=bl&ots=ipLFABOJYD&sig=ACfU3U2CNPnmdXUfcRROXu2XIIOEvsIkfQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjzw6r8w5jmAhVmmuAKHVy2AFoQ6AEwA3oECA0QAQ#v=onepage&q=safety vapor heating co buffalo ny&f=false

@gerry gill and @StevePajek , I can't make heads or tails of the online patent search site- maybe you could work your magic to find it?

Double D

I was just emailing myself the middle link you just posted. It seems you found more on this system than I did. I've come across these systems before but never one that still had its components. No doubt its been knuckleheaded.

Steamhead

The diagram I found shows "return valves", which was another term for radiator traps. But neither Tunstall nor Barnes & Jones lists these traps- unless there was a different name associated with them.

Looking forward to lots of pics when you get there.

AMservices

@Double D
How'd you make out?

Double D

Haven't had a chance to get over there yet. They sent a few more pictures. We've all seen worse but they aren't great. Hoping to get over there this coming week.

Double D

The boiler is surging. Definitely needs to be skimmed. Here is a video of the gauge glass on the air eliminate while the boiler is running. It does get worse and foam comes down from the top. Multiple issues. Pics to follow soon.

https://youtu.be/AuLHUG8bigs

Double D

@AMservices Here's a pic from another angle. Behind the gauge glass the letters OZ.

Double D

I posted 3yrs ago about the same type of system. Most of the radiators still had the return valves on them, only one original supply valve. This house has most of the original supply valves and return valves.

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/157981/never-a-dull-moment-in-steam-heat

Double D

AMservices

That interesting.
What did you do with the main vent?
Was the system full of steam when the water in the gauge started jumping?
If not, you might be making steam faster then the air can vent out.

Double D

The system was not full of steam. The video doesn't show the gauge glass at it's worse. It bounces much more violently and foam fills the gauge glass above the water line. The water line in the gauge glass on the boiler goes all the way to the top and stays there until the burner shuts down. Looks like a tilting water line to me. I didn't want to put one of my vents on there with all that going on. I'll go back, remove the 2-1/2" plug on the RH side, install a 2-1/2"×1-1/2" bushing & nipple, skim and wand wash the boiler. Once I have it calmed down I'll install a Gorton 2. I'm adding up the EDR now but my guess is the boiler is grossly oversized. The installer actually told them he gave them a larger boiler than the one he bid. He let them know the larger boiler costs more and asked them to pay the difference. They told him no way.

Steamhead

Double D said:

I posted 3yrs ago about the same type of system. Most of the radiators still had the return valves on them, only one original supply valve. This house has most of the original supply valves and return valves.

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/157981/never-a-dull-moment-in-steam-heat

I've added that to the Undocumented Vapor System thread.

Double D

Dunkirk/Bryant PSB-7D 225,000btu 571sqft steam
Total installed radiation 492sqft. Oversized by roughly 20%

Steamhead

And horribly piped. That boiler needs two 2-1/2" risers feeding a 3" header.

Double D

@Steamhead There was someone else who posted about a Safety Vapor system he had in his home. I think the name was Silkey?

Steamhead

Yup- I had posted in that thread and the other one you found but didn't remember. I really am getting old............

Double D

Slowly ironing it out. After skimming and wand washing the boiler, i replaced the Hoffman 40 being used for a main vent with a Gorton 2. The pigtail and gauge glass valves and piping were plugged with sludge. For now the boiler is no longer surging and foaming. The system will still need some work but for now there's no more hammering and they're getting heat in radiators that never heated well at all. I guess they will be able to ditch the electric heaters they were using for those rooms.
Some time in the 50s, someone put convectors in the livingroom and kitchen. One of the convectors in the livingroom had a 1/2" radiator valve on the return side, the other one has a Safety Vapor return valve. I installed a Hoffman 17C on the convector that had the radiator valve on the return side to prevent the steam from filling the dry return with steam and shutting off my new Gorton 2. That worked fine. After running the system another cycle, the Safety Vapor valve let steam pass into the dry return and again close the new Gorton 2. I guess I can safely assume the Safety Vapor Return valve from 1915 is not going to work on a 1950s convector.

https://youtu.be/z6NY6uHKz_M

AMservices

Keep up the good work @Double D
It sucks having to replace unique parts that give Character to an old steam system.
If the supply valve works, you can try throttling it to keep the steam from making all the way through the radiator.

SeanBeans

The piping is a gem