Help me figure out my 2 pipe system

acepedro45

Hello Wallies! Please help me tame my ridiculously high heating bill!

We have a two-pipe steam system heating a 4100 square foot house. We have a natural gas fired burner that costs $700-900 monthly during season. The Pressuretrol is set to .5 PSIG cut in. I can’t figure out where the cut out setting is - I guess inside? I attached a shot of the Pressuretrol below.

I am not sure how to classify the condensate returns. Many returns feed a boiler pump, but some returns seem to bypass the pump altogether and I guess are totally gravity fed.

There’s a shot of the condensate returns attached below. Starting on the right side near the upside down bucket, the first vertical pipe is the equalizer loop. The next one is a return from the system (not so clear in the photo but it doesn’t join the next vertical pipe that runs into the pump.) The next vertical pipe is the return line that feeds the pump. The following vertical pipe comes out of the blue box and vents the system. Finally, there is a horizontal pipe that pushes condensate back into the burner, making a u-turn back across the front of the photo and then meeting up with the boiler feed.

My specific questions:

1. I think the main culprit to our huge heating bill is the cast iron radiator in my son’s room. That radiator has a Hoffman 1A adjustable valve installed. The valve has long since failed and that radiator just vents warm steam (and by extension, dollars) when the boiler is firing. From reading Dan’s book, installing 1 pipe radiator venting like the Hoffman valve on a two pipe system is not recommended, but is a depressingly common tactic when thermostatic traps fail and the condensate returns end up pressurized. I guess someone in the past must have made this adjustment as a stopgap measure.

I’ve attached a picture of the radiator below.

My plan for this radiator is to remove the failed Hoffman vent, seal the hole with JB-Weld (or anything else that you guys might recommend) and replace the thermostatic trap with a new one. The radiator already heated up passably well while I temporarily blocked off the Hoffman valve. Solid plan?

2. Some condensate return lines are definitely at least partially pressurized, including the one leading to my son’s radiator. I read in Dan’s book that having pressure in the lines on the return side can cause thermostatic traps to fail prematurely, even brand-new ones. Am I just setting myself up for disappointment if I replace the thermostatic trap? The pressure seems much lower in the condensate return than in the steam line, so maybe it will hold up? Advice sought.

3. Returning to the subject of condensate returns….is it common to have some returns fed by gravity and some pumped? It seems weird to me.

4. I can’t seem to identify any main vent in the entire system except for the vent on top of the condensate pump. I think having only one pump-mounted vent is normal for a pumped system, right? Like I mentioned before, some return lines seem to bypass the condensate pump and feed directly into the boiler by gravity. In those cases, will I introduce trouble by sealing off the Hoffman radiator vent as I outlined in step 1? It seems like those lines will not have any way to vent without the radiator mounted vent.

My level of expertise: neophyte. I am a new homeowner. I am generally handy and have read Dan’s Lost Art of Steam Heating thoroughly. I am not afraid to crack open the system and try new things, but the only heating system I have experience with is my own.

Thanks for reading all this and for any help you can offer!

acwagner

I'm not a two pipe expert, but here are general things to add.

Don't use JB Weld for the vent hole. Buy a brass 1/8" threaded plug. They're available at any hardware store or Home Depot/Lowes.

Also, if the radiator cover serves no function for how you use the room, I recommend you remove it. That reduces the output of the radiator.

KC_Jones

Couple things.
1. Normal 2 pipe systems shouldn't have vents on any of the radiators and having them can cover up other problems. I'd remove and plug any vents you have.
2. If that pump is next to the boiler then I can't imagine it was ever needed.
3. If you have no main vents then the condensate pump is your vent (if memory serves), but again you probably don't need the pump.
4. If you don't need the pump, and you have no main vents, it would be good to figure out what system you have as it could be some knucklehead didn't know what they were looking at and ripped out the original equipment in the basement and gave you what you got.

Take some pictures of the inlet valves and traps on the radiators, specifically looking for a name of some sort, this will help identify the system. Take more pictures of the boiler and piping so we can see what you are working with. There are many reasons you could have excessively high bills so a full system evaluation would be good.

Where are you located? We may know a good steam person in your area, if that is the direction you would like to take. If you are wanting to learn and perform some of your own work, we may be able to assist you with that as well. Several of us on here do our own work and are avid with DIY, but we also will warn you, some of this work isn't easy or for the light of heart.

I am not a 2 pipe expert by any means, just getting the ball rolling for you.

JUGHNE

The easy ones: rad vents screw into an 1/8 IPS threaded hole that can be plugged with an 1/8" plug.
Remove the cover on the pressure control, there will be a wheel for adjustment inside.....set it to 1 or 1.5.
Be sure the pigtail is clean all the way into the boiler.
What does your pressure gauge show?

More pictures showing all piping floor to ceiling and more of the return piping......others will jump in here soon.

Where are you located?

acepedro45

Hi and thanks for the responses so far. I'm in Hartford, CT. I enjoy and am pretty good at doing my own work, but I am not opposed to getting a pro in to give me pointers if I get stuck.

1. Normal 2 pipe systems shouldn't have vents on any of the radiators and having them can cover up other problems. I'd remove and plug any vents you have.
-Yup, I knew that from Dan's book.

2. If that pump is next to the boiler then I can't imagine it was ever needed.
3. If you have no main vents then the condensate pump is your vent (if memory serves), but again you probably don't need the pump.
That's the only vent I can identify so far

4. If you don't need the pump, and you have no main vents, it would be good to figure out what system you have as it could be some knucklehead didn't know what they were looking at and ripped out the original equipment in the basement and gave you what you got.

Yeah, I'm suspecting this too. I will get some more shots of the piping as several have suggested, but the pump stuff makes no sense to me.


Take some pictures of the inlet valves and traps on the radiators, specifically looking for a name of some sort, this will help identify the system. Take more pictures of the boiler and piping so we can see what you are working with. There are many reasons you could have excessively high bills so a full system evaluation would be good.

I have a mismosh of different traps and valves. I'd say most common is Barnes and Jones, but I've also seen Vent Rite and Hoffman.


What does your pressure gauge show?

I think the pressure gauge always shows zero. I'm pretty sure it's broken.


To the several who suggested filling the vent port with a threaded screw, thanks, will do. I will also come on a little later with more shots of the piping.

mattmia2

A 30 psig full scale gauge is going to show little indication at 1 or 2 psi, but the piping to the gauge or the pressure control or both could be plugged.

It could have been some system that did not use conventional main vents.

The condensate pump was almost certainly installed as a cure to a problem they did not understand.

PMJ

Is the heat bill a change from your previous experience or are you new to this system?

Is there an automatic damper on the boiler? Big time losses there if not.

Jamie Hall

Try @Charlie from wmass . He's just up the road from you in Springfield, busy as the proverbial one-armed paper hanger, and one of the best in the business.

In the meantime... step one is to turn the pressure down. Your cutin is set a bit above 2 psi and should be a bit above 0.5 -- bottom of the scale. Without seeing the make of that one inlet valve in the radiator picture I can't be sure, but I'd not be surprised if it had been a vapour system of some sort -- which should be at an even lower pressure.

Particularly if that is so, the system may never have had vents on the steam mains, but may have had crossover traps to the dry returns and one or more main vents where the dry returns met before the dropped to the wet return before the boiler. If someone was so ambitious as to put in that condensate tank that's probably long gone.

One thing you may be able to do is to verify that all the steam traps on the radiators (and the crossovers, if you have them) are actually working. They can fail either open or closed -- the one in your son's room with the vent is probably failed closed, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were one or more here and there which are failed open. It's a rare trap that Barnes & Jones doesn't have a replacement or repair part for, so try to identify (pictures! pictures!) the traps. And yes, you can damage new traps if there are other traps on the dry returns which are failed open, but it doesn't happen immediately. But fix them anyway, if only so that the system will operate properly.

JUGHNE

BTW, that is an 1/8" pipe plug.....not a screw.

You said you have the Lost Art book. Go to page 223 and study the "B" dimension. You need low pressure operation.

Is there actually an air vent on the vent pipe of the condensate pump? It should be just an open pipe.
The traps must prevent the steam from ever getting to the pump or it will die an early death.

acepedro45

> @PMJ said:
> Is the heat bill a change from your previous experience or are you new to this system?
>
> Is there an automatic damper on the boiler? Big time losses there if not.

I’m new to the system. The previous owners had bills that were high but not this high...but then again, we have people home all the time now and less tolerance for cold (Haitian immigrants).

There is an automatic damper and it functions normally.

@Jamie Hall the Pressuretrol is set for .5 cut in and the wheel inside is set at 1, so I think that makes it a .5 to 1.5 Psig operation. The angle in the Pressuretrol photo above is a little deceptive.

Jamie check out this picture of a steam main turning into a return with no vent. It slopes down the wall and connects directly into the gravity return I showed earlier.

By “crossover” do you mean the F&T traps people install on mains? I can’t find any sign of those.

What’s the easiest way to verify a trap is functioning? Disassemble? Dan mentioned templestiks in his book.

@mattmia2 the gauge is a 30psig gauge but big enough that it seems like it would be easy to read a 1-1.5 psig system pressure.

acepedro45

A few more pics of the system piping are attached. I included the end of the vent pipe that comes out of the condensate pump.

@Jamie Hall I included some shots of the radiator inlet valve and traps that are original. The trap says REC US PAT OFF as best I can see.

Any other requests?

Jamie Hall

It's old. It's tired. And it was a vapour system, once upon a time... Try @Sailah with those trap pictures (take two: top and one showing the whole side) or just get in touch with Barnes & Jones.

acepedro45

If anyone is curious...the boiler fired for 6 mins and then is quiet for 25 just now. It’s about 50 degrees out. Is that a more or less normal sounding cycle? The pressure gauge never budged from zero.

JUGHNE

That gauge, like most OEM ones is just about worthless.
Is the pigtail clean?
That cycle might be about right, but what shut it off?
Was it the tstat or pressure control?

Did you figure out your "B" dimension that is available,
this will determine if you need the pump or not.

PMJ

What is the EDR of the system and size of the boiler?

acepedro45

@JUGHNE is the “pigtail” the short curly pipe that attaches the pressure gauge to the boiler? It looks clean to me. Pic attached.

You’re right of course. It’s just a pipe coming out of the condensate pump, not a vent. I used sloppy vocabulary describing it.

I’m confused about your reference to the B dimension. By B dimension you mean the distance between the waterline of the boiler and the trap, right? It’s a second floor radiator and a basement boiler so I don’t think there’s an issue there.

@Sailah @Jamie Hall two pics of the original thermostatic trap are attached. Any ideas? I don’t have any reason to think it’s from Barnes & Jones - when I spoke of B & J earlier, I was referring to the more modern looking traps (the ones I suspect were added much later to the system.) Again it says REC US PAT OFF as best I can make out on the trap.

@PMJ the boiler is a Weil McLain eg 65. It had a 209,000 btu/hr rating and says net IBR rating for steam is 157 MBH / 654 sq feet. Pic attached of label.

To get the system load in EDR I’d need to make some estimations around all my radiators and pipes, right? Too big a project for tonight. Maybe this weekend?

Steamhead

@acepedro45 , pics didn't attach............

ethicalpaul

You have to clean/check the inside of the pigtail if that wasn’t clear 😅

The normal cycle depends on a lot of things. Was your thermostat satisfied after 6 minutes? Was your house evenly heated and comfortable after that? Those are the things that count, not the pressure gauge necessarily. But that sounds a little short admittedly.

Also I wouldn't expect the gauge to move in the first 6 minutes normally. Mine takes two minutes just to start boiling on a typical call for heat.

PMJ

What are you paying for gas? I'm at $5/mcuft all in. Wouldn't that boiler have to run basically 24/7 to burn $700 in a month? I'm missing something. Someone else do the math. It's early, maybe I screwed it up.

Sailah

acepedro45 said:

@JUGHNE is the “pigtail” the short curly pipe that attaches the pressure gauge to the boiler? It looks clean to me. Pic attached.



You’re right of course. It’s just a pipe coming out of the condensate pump, not a vent. I used sloppy vocabulary describing it.



I’m confused about your reference to the B dimension. By B dimension you mean the distance between the waterline of the boiler and the trap, right? It’s a second floor radiator and a basement boiler so I don’t think there’s an issue there.



@Sailah @Jamie Hall two pics of the original thermostatic trap are attached. Any ideas? I don’t have any reason to think it’s from Barnes & Jones - when I spoke of B & J earlier, I was referring to the more modern looking traps (the ones I suspect were added much later to the system.) Again it says REC US PAT OFF as best I can make out on the trap.



@PMJ the boiler is a Weil McLain eg 65. It had a 209,000 btu/hr rating and says net IBR rating for steam is 157 MBH / 654 sq feet. Pic attached of label.



To get the system load in EDR I’d need to make some estimations around all my radiators and pipes, right? Too big a project for tonight. Maybe this weekend?

I can't make out the picture, you need to take a better one. Top down and from side.

To test the steam traps for functionality you have a number of detection methods. You can use temperature or ultrasound, I much prefer ultrasound esp for thermostatic traps.

Temp:

Something like a FLIR is best. They make versions that attach to iPhones. I have a hand held pro version. You are looking for a temp delta across the trap. 214F on inlet, 192F on outlet as a broad example.

You can also use an IR temp gun, those are cheap.

Another option, depending on how much you like to play around, is a USB temp datalogger. I love these. They log to USB using Putty or similar and let you see what's going on over a long period. You just attach a couple DS18B20 thermcouples plug into laptop and leave running. You can save the datalog to CSV and graph on excel.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/4-Channel-Temperature-Data-Logger-55-125-C-Bluetooth-DS18B20-Wireless-LCD/113376468285

Temp sticks wouldn't be my first choice, a cheap IR gun is $20 from Harbor Freight.

Ultrasound is best but unfortunately there aren't any cheap options in this area. I've bought a number of Accutrak VPE on eBay for $100-200 but it's random. The cheapest new device is $500.

acepedro45

Sorry....here are the pics I tried to attach to my last post.

Sailah

That's a weird one. It's def been modified. The original trap is on the bottom and the "top" is an add on. Was common to do this back in the day. Let me ask someone who would know.

Just based on the paint I'd say is ripe for a replacement. You could open it up and see what the innards look like, almost certainly could get a cage unit from Barnes & Jones to fit.

Or swap in a new trap.

Steamhead

@acepedro45 , @Sailah - that is a Thermograde system. You can see the name on the most recent pic of the trap. I've encountered the name but this is the first time I've actually seen a pic of the hardware. So, we now have an example of a new-to-the-Wall Vapor species.

The oddly shaped trap tells me it might have originally had a carbon post instead of an alcohol-filled bellows or diaphragm to close the trap on temperature.

Does the name Thermograde appear on the shutoff valves as well? Also, besides that condensate pump (which is probably quite unnecessary) are there any very old devices in the system piping?

Steamhead

Some more Thermograde info:

https://books.google.com/books?id=huxEAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA590&lpg=PA590&dq=thermograde+system&source=bl&ots=QmfcGFfXCn&sig=ACfU3U2KD0yvXiKuNaLs7Ad7sCCFFPMXrQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjXqomn26zmAhVSwVkKHfrPDf8Q6AEwAHoECAsQAQ#v=onepage&q=thermograde system&f=false

This one's a long download. Turns out one of Thermograde's two main offices was in Baltimore. It shows the shutoff ("control") valve and the Autovalve trap:

https://ia800603.us.archive.org/16/items/TheThermogradeSystemOfSteamHeatingASemi-automaticMethodOfHeat/Cca51070ThermogradeValveCo..pdf

The previous link was from this page, which has a LOT of interesting stuff:

https://archive.org/details/buildingtechnologyheritagelibrary?sort=creatorSorter&and[]=subject:"steam+heating"

Sailah

> @Steamhead said:
> @acepedro45 , @Sailah - that is a Thermograde system. You can see the name on the most recent pic of the trap. I've encountered the name but this is the first time I've actually seen a pic of the hardware. So, we now have an example of a new-to-the-Wall Vapor species.
>
> The oddly shaped trap tells me it might have originally had a carbon post instead of an alcohol-filled bellows or diaphragm to close the trap on temperature.
>
> Does the name Thermograde appear on the shutoff valves as well? Also, besides that condensate pump (which is probably quite unnecessary) are there any very old devices in the system piping?

Ha great answer @Steamhead ! Here's another from Barnes and Jones confirming above:

These traps were 1900 to 1920’s. They had a carbon post that was threaded into the cover. When steam hit it they expanded and closed off. You could adjust it by taking off the acorn nut and turning the threaded post down to the seat and then backing it off.

B&J made some weird **** diaphragms with long plugs to fit into them (see attached drawing) B&J was also the rep for them.

We don’t have anything that will fit. They need to replace the traps or thread the carbon post that is still in them down, closer to the seat, and see if they still work

Sailah

Heres the drawing

Steamhead

I don't suppose B&J could make a run of these, since the engineering drawings still exist? From the looks of those traps, some serious repiping might be needed to replace them..........

Sailah

Define "run". Not worth doing for 10 I would guess.

Steamhead

Sailah said:

Define "run". Not worth doing for 10 I would guess.

What would be more realistic? This can't be the only Thermograde out there..................

acepedro45

I bought a modern Barnes and jones trap to replace the ancient one. Is there much of an advantage in retaining the old trap instead of replacing it? @Steamhead what makes you think there might be a lot of repiping?

At supply house.com replacement innards for traps were almost as much as buying a complete trap. I suppose it’s quicker to just replace the insides.

Steamhead

acepedro45 said:

I bought a modern Barnes and jones trap to replace the ancient one. Is there much of an advantage in retaining the old trap instead of replacing it? @Steamhead what makes you think there might be a lot of repiping?



At supply house.com replacement innards for traps were almost as much as buying a complete trap. I suppose it’s quicker to just replace the insides.

The Thermograde trap's mounting dimensions look to be quite different from Barnes & Jones'. From the pic I can't tell if there is an extension coupling ("pipe stretcher") screwed into the radiator- if so, and if it comes out easily, the job will be easier. Considerations like this are why we like to rebuild traps rather than completely replace them.

Sailah

Steamhead said:

Sailah said:

Define "run". Not worth doing for 10 I would guess.

What would be more realistic? This can't be the only Thermograde out there..................

I don't know what they would be willing to make but when I worked there they would have bins of 100 cage units that hadn't moved in 30 years. That's a long time to sit on inventory to sell 5 cage units. It's the machine setup time that's expensive to make the plugs.

acepedro45 said:

I bought a modern Barnes and jones trap to replace the ancient one. Is there much of an advantage in retaining the old trap instead of replacing it? @Steamhead what makes you think there might be a lot of repiping?



At supply house.com replacement innards for traps were almost as much as buying a complete trap. I suppose it’s quicker to just replace the insides.

The real reason for retaining the old one is nostalgia and originality. The thermograde is clearly a better looking trap!!

But a modern B&J 122A/134A will have a new mechanism and be factory tested.

You can also call B&J and order different length nipples for the trap. They make them in +0.25" increments to help a difficult install so you don't need to stretch pipe.

Be really careful removing old traps and use a strong backup wrench. It's easy to break things with the force required to remove trap bodies that have been there with 100 years of brown loctite.

acepedro45

When I had the radiator disassembled last week, it seemed like the condensate return had enough give that any substitute trap of the same approximate dimensions would work. It's a second floor radiator with a line running right down the wall to the basement, so it had some play. I was thinking just replace the trap (with apologies to the old-time trap lovers on the forum like @Sailah .

Do you guys generally use brown Loctite to seal up your pipes? I had used white Teflon tape and hadn't shown any leaks so far after a few rounds of disassembly and reassembly.

mattmia2

It looks like the condensate has been replaced with copper so it has a lot more give than black iron.

"brown loctite" = rust.

acepedro45

"brown loctite" = rust. Haha, ok.

Apologies, I should have googled around the forum more before my newb questions. I think the "what do I seal my pipes with" question had been discussed a number of times, with the majority favoring Teflon tape wrapped around a layer of pipe dope.

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/72416/teflon-tape

Sailah

Lol Brown loctite applies itself!!

acepedro45

Hi, I was wondering if anyone had strong feelings on replacing the radiator spud or not when replacing a radiator trap.

I tackled my son's radiator at last. Everything seems to be working decently except I have a slow drip where the old spud attaches to the new trap inlet.

In this video, the This Old House guy replaces the spud as well as the trap. Any reason why I should do this? I have a new spud that came with my new trap, but no spud wrench. I followed his procedure aside from the spud.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_44vzZvmFLM

My thinking is that old crusty iron has to meet new metal somewhere....why should it matter if it's at the junction of spud and radiator or spud and trap?

Jamie Hall

On the spud. Oops. Sorry. The spud and the trap body -- or valve on the other end -- are two halves of a matched union. If you replace one, you replace the other. No choice.

JUGHNE

You are lucky there is only a drip. This may eventually become a rusty mess.
The advantage of rebuilding a trap rather than replacing is to avoid this.

Sailah

If the union nut on the original spud will thread onto your trap body, no reason to not try it. Yes it's true that they are a matched taper but the brass has enough give that you can make it work sometimes. If it seals, job done and you just saved a lot of work. If it doesn't seal then you need to swap out the spuds.

Personally I'd try it, removing those spuds can be a giant PITA.

SeanBeans

Usually involves getting the sawzall out =[