Click here to Find a Contractor in your area.
Welcome! Here are the website rules, as well as some tips for using this forum.

If you've found help here, check back in to let us know how everything worked out.
It's a great way to thank those who helped you.
Need to contact us? Visit https://heatinghelp.com/contact-us/.

Found a New Vapor Species- "Triumph"

SteamheadSteamhead Posts: 13,132Member
This is in the Strong mansion at Sugarloaf Mountain, about halfway between Frederick, MD and DC. It is a privately owned "Scenic forested day park offering over 15 miles of hiking trails, picnic space & a historic mansion". I'm told Col. Strong built the mansion about 1916 and added onto it in the late 1920s. The mansion is also a popular wedding venue. See: http://www.sugarloafmd.com/

The facilities manager had sent some pics showing a standard Dunham air trap and return trap. I had expected the usual Dunham Return System- but that's not what I saw when I got there:





Triumph. Never seen this name on a Vapor system before. I could not find any markings on the traps since they had a lot of paint on them, but they look like a cross between a Bishop & Babcock and a Webster 712. There is one radiator inside a built-in cabinet that doesn't heat well, and it has one of these traps without the slathered-on paint. They're going to open the cabinet so we can replace the trap and take it apart. Of course we'll use a MEPCO.

The original part of the mansion has Triumph hardware and American Peerless column radiators. The 1920s part has American Corto large-tube rads and Dunham hardware. I have no idea who made the Triumph gear.

The boiler is an oil-fired Smith 19-9 with a Beckett CF1400. One of our upgrades will be to hook up the lo-hi-lo firing capability. There is a Skidmore boiler-feed pump which I'm sure is unnecessary.
All Steamed Up, Inc.
"Reducing our country's energy consumption, one system at a time"
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Baltimore, MD (USA) and consulting anywhere.
https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/all-steamed-up-inc

Comments

  • SteamheadSteamhead Posts: 13,132Member
    Another upgrade will be to replace these old Dunham traps with six-bolt types, and pipe the condensate returns so the system doesn't have to lift the condensate into the dry returns:





    More coming the next time we go there.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    "Reducing our country's energy consumption, one system at a time"
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Baltimore, MD (USA) and consulting anywhere.
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/all-steamed-up-inc
  • Mike_SheppardMike_Sheppard Posts: 551Member
    Cool stuff! I still get excited when I come across well known vapor systems! 😂
    Never stop learning.
  • hvacfreak2hvacfreak2 Posts: 474Member
    This is interesting , I've driven past this place many times ( entire life actually ) and figured it had an interesting heating system of some sort. I used to work on a lot of steam systems in that area , the old estate and farm homes in Buckeystown and Adamstown are mostly steam ( or were ).

    As far as the brand name " Triumph " , a friend of mine in Frederick ( city ) once told me about a system he had come across with that brand and mentioned large traps on the radiator outlets. I guess 75 years ago Frederick was pretty isolated so Triumph may have been a local endeavor. I clearly remember an old building at South and East Streets that had an old painted sign that mentioned valve manufacturing , casting , machining.
    hvacfreak

    Mechanical Enthusiast

    Burnham MST 396 , 60 oz gauge , Tigerloop , Firomatic Check Valve , Mcdonnell Miller 67 lwco , Danfoss RA2k TRV's

    Easyio FG20 Controller

  • SteamheadSteamhead Posts: 13,132Member
    @hvacfreak2 , I sure hope you're still in touch with that friend! Who knows, maybe he was talking about this same mansion.

    Maybe the local Historical Society would have some info on the building you mentioned.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    "Reducing our country's energy consumption, one system at a time"
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Baltimore, MD (USA) and consulting anywhere.
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/all-steamed-up-inc
  • gerry gillgerry gill Posts: 2,953Member
    wow- nice find Frank!
    gwgillplumbingandheating.com

    Serving Cleveland's eastern suburbs from Cleveland Heights down to Cuyahoga Falls.

  • SteamheadSteamhead Posts: 13,132Member
    @gerry gill , there had to be a patent on that valve- maybe @StevePajek could do one of his searches?
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    "Reducing our country's energy consumption, one system at a time"
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Baltimore, MD (USA) and consulting anywhere.
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/all-steamed-up-inc
  • DanHolohanDanHolohan Posts: 14,706Member, Moderator, Administrator
    Forever fascinating. Thanks.
    Retired and loving it.
  • hvacfreak2hvacfreak2 Posts: 474Member
    I'm sure it wasn't " The Stronghold " , I just remember telling him on the phone " Triumph is motorcycles or a Canadian rock band not a steam system , lol ". I called him " Mr. Frederick " because he didn't like to leave the town ( city limits ). I believe he is still around I'll try and reach out to him.
    hvacfreak

    Mechanical Enthusiast

    Burnham MST 396 , 60 oz gauge , Tigerloop , Firomatic Check Valve , Mcdonnell Miller 67 lwco , Danfoss RA2k TRV's

    Easyio FG20 Controller

  • SteamheadSteamhead Posts: 13,132Member
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    "Reducing our country's energy consumption, one system at a time"
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Baltimore, MD (USA) and consulting anywhere.
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/all-steamed-up-inc
  • SteamheadSteamhead Posts: 13,132Member
    Maybe they had offices in NYC but the factory was in Mansfield, OH? Not the first time we've seen something like this- for example, Dunham had their office in Chicago but the factory was in Marshalltown, IA.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    "Reducing our country's energy consumption, one system at a time"
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Baltimore, MD (USA) and consulting anywhere.
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/all-steamed-up-inc
  • FredFred Posts: 7,919Member
    THE CRAIG-REYNOLDS FOUNDRY COMPANY:

    The Craig-Reynolds Foundry Company is an Ohio Corporation For-Profit filed on January 5, 1893. The company's filing status is listed as Dead and its File Number is 9061.

    The company has 4 principals on record. The principals are Et Al, Harrie N Reynolds, John A Mcmahon, and Zenas A Craig.
  • SteamheadSteamhead Posts: 13,132Member
    edited March 4
    @IamNotLost , that mansion is in Rochester, NY.

    Also, I have a feeling Craig-Reynolds and Triumph Valve were different companies. Not only were they nowhere near each other- Mansfield is on the other side of Ohio from Dayton- but from what I can see their product lines were different. This may explain why they both could use the Triumph name.

    I hope @StevePajek can find the time to do one of his patent searches. There is no one on the Wall that does these better than him.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    "Reducing our country's energy consumption, one system at a time"
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Baltimore, MD (USA) and consulting anywhere.
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/all-steamed-up-inc
  • FredFred Posts: 7,919Member
    edited March 4
    There was some relationship between one of the principles of the Craig-Reynolds Foundry and the Kuhns Foundry also. I don't recall the Craig Reynolds Foundry but I lived near the Kuhns Foundry, here in Dayton, Ohio, until they closed in the 1970's, maybe early 80's.
  • Dave in QCADave in QCA Posts: 1,737Member
    IF you opt to repair the old Dunham traps, I think you will find that they are designated as #2 model. Cage units and a replacement cap to accommodate them are available through Barnes & Jones. We have quite a number of them in our 1909 property and the B&J products have worked great. The newer 1E trap dimensions are different can be a challenge.
    Dave in Quad Cities, America
    Weil-McLain 680 with Riello 2-stage burner, December 2012. Firing rate=375MBH Low, 690MBH Hi.
    System = Early Dunham 2-pipe Vacuo-Vapor (inlet and outlet both at bottom of radiators) Traps are Dunham #2 rebuilt w. Barnes-Jones Cage Units, Dunham-Bush 1E, Mepco 1E, and Armstrong TS-2. All valves haveTunstall orifices sized at 8 oz.
    Current connected load EDR= 1,259 sq ft, Original system EDR = 2,100 sq ft Vaporstat, 13 oz cutout, 4 oz cutin - Temp. control Tekmar 279.
    http://grandviewdavenport.com
  • SteamheadSteamhead Posts: 13,132Member
    @Dave in QCA , not sure the trap in the pic is a Dunham. Time will tell.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    "Reducing our country's energy consumption, one system at a time"
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Baltimore, MD (USA) and consulting anywhere.
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/all-steamed-up-inc
  • Dave in QCADave in QCA Posts: 1,737Member
    edited March 13
    @Steamhead I thought it looked like this early Dunham type. NOTE the pdf file at the end. It has dimensions and all details of the original Dunham Radiator Trap.





    Dave in Quad Cities, America
    Weil-McLain 680 with Riello 2-stage burner, December 2012. Firing rate=375MBH Low, 690MBH Hi.
    System = Early Dunham 2-pipe Vacuo-Vapor (inlet and outlet both at bottom of radiators) Traps are Dunham #2 rebuilt w. Barnes-Jones Cage Units, Dunham-Bush 1E, Mepco 1E, and Armstrong TS-2. All valves haveTunstall orifices sized at 8 oz.
    Current connected load EDR= 1,259 sq ft, Original system EDR = 2,100 sq ft Vaporstat, 13 oz cutout, 4 oz cutin - Temp. control Tekmar 279.
    http://grandviewdavenport.com
  • SteamheadSteamhead Posts: 13,132Member
    @Dave in QCA , you nailed it! We spent the first three days of this week at this job, and removed one of the traps that didn't have much paint on it. The Dunham name and patent numbers were crammed on top of the hex surface, which means I couldn't get a good pic of them, but the dimensions agree with the list you posted. So this system originally had Triumph valves and Dunham #2 traps. Interesting... very interesting.

    I have more-specific dates: "Stronghold" was originally built in 1912, and enlarged in 1928. The Dunham #22C F&T traps, shown above, didn't exist in 1912 so they were part of the expansion. I have no idea how they dripped that big main (at least 4-inch and maybe larger) originally, or if it was even there in 1912. It serves a large ballroom, dining room and some bedrooms which were part of the expansion, as well as some original parts of the system.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    "Reducing our country's energy consumption, one system at a time"
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Baltimore, MD (USA) and consulting anywhere.
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/all-steamed-up-inc
  • SteamheadSteamhead Posts: 13,132Member
    This week's project was to upgrade the 1928-vintage F&T traps to six-bolt ones, and install a drip line to run the condensate back to the boiler. Here's how the F&Ts went in, with multiple swing joints to compensate for different pitches on existing pipes. Whoever installed these pipes didn't want to create any water pockets!

    The F&T in the second pic is at the end of the big main. We piggybacked a Mepco 3C 1" thermostatic trap onto the F&T to serve as a crossover, so that main would vent faster.




    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    "Reducing our country's energy consumption, one system at a time"
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Baltimore, MD (USA) and consulting anywhere.
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/all-steamed-up-inc
  • SteamheadSteamhead Posts: 13,132Member
    edited August 15
    Some views of the new line. Yes, it's copper, but this place is on well water so it should hold up better. Starting at the F&T at the end of the big main and moving toward the other F&T, which serves a rise-and-drip:



    Going through the wall into the boiler room. Note that the concrete in the wall was formulated with quartz aggregate. The staff used a core drill to get through, but it took forever and messed up one of their guys' thumbs. We hope he recovers soon:



    And finally, joining the return line before the Return Trap. The welded thread-o-let, as well as the pipe supports, were all @Gordo 's work:


    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    "Reducing our country's energy consumption, one system at a time"
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Baltimore, MD (USA) and consulting anywhere.
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/all-steamed-up-inc
  • SteamheadSteamhead Posts: 13,132Member
    edited August 15
    Some more system details. This is right above the Return Trap. The air trap is the later Dunham style, and is piped down the wall to a check valve. Yes, this system still uses vacuum:



    To the right of the air trap, you can see a crossover trap, which vents the small main. It was a Dunham #1A, which would be from 1928. We changed it to a modern 1E.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    "Reducing our country's energy consumption, one system at a time"
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Baltimore, MD (USA) and consulting anywhere.
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/all-steamed-up-inc
  • SteamheadSteamhead Posts: 13,132Member
    edited August 15
    Time to fire and test!

    We started the boiler, and it started making steam at 5:43 PM. Everything was stone cold, so it took a while for steam to fill the mains, but at 5:52 we had steam at the small main crossover trap. Two minutes later, steam reached the end of the big main and closed its crossover trap.

    We went upstairs, and all the radiators were heating more-or-less evenly. When the Vaporstat reached 8 ounces and started cycling the burner, we let it run for a bit then shut it down. But when we looked at the boiler after about ten minutes, we saw.......



    That's right- vacuum! Almost 12 inches. The new compound gauge proved its worth:



    We re-started the boiler but it took a bit to build pressure again. All the radiators were still hot.

    Next job is to hook up the lo-hi-lo firing control and run a new cable to add post-purge to the burner, then brush and vacuum the boiler and service the burner. Watch this space.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    "Reducing our country's energy consumption, one system at a time"
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Baltimore, MD (USA) and consulting anywhere.
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/all-steamed-up-inc
  • gerry gillgerry gill Posts: 2,953Member
    Great work Frank!- did you run across any patent numbers on that triumph stuff anywhere?
    gwgillplumbingandheating.com

    Serving Cleveland's eastern suburbs from Cleveland Heights down to Cuyahoga Falls.

  • SteamheadSteamhead Posts: 13,132Member
    @gerry gill Unfortunately, no.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    "Reducing our country's energy consumption, one system at a time"
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Baltimore, MD (USA) and consulting anywhere.
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/all-steamed-up-inc
  • JohnNYJohnNY Posts: 2,293Member
    Great thread.
    For installations, troubleshooting, and private consulting services, find John "JohnNY" Cataneo here at :
    "72°F Mechanical, LLC"
    Or email John at [email protected]
    John is a professional Master Plumber, licensed by The Department of Buildings of The City of New York, and works extensively in NYC while consulting for clients in and out of state.
Sign In or Register to comment.

Welcome

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!