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Heat Pump Water Heaters -- no free lunch
Since I like to rock the boat, at least gently, now and then...
There has been a lot of discussion and enthusiasm about heat pump water heaters. Unfortunately, at least some of it has overtones of free lunch.
Consider. A heat pump water heater works by extracting heat from the surrounding air and boosting the temperature of that heat and delivering it to water, thus heating the water. So far so good. It uses considerably less power to do that than fired or electric water heaters.
However. Problem. Where does that low temperature heat come from? The surrounding air, and it cools the surrounding air by a certain amount. Rather small, but it does. This is not a consideration if that surrounding air is outside air, or the water heater is in an unconditioned space. However, if it is in a conditioned space -- that is one that a furnace or boiler is striving to maintain at some set temperature -- then the furnace or boiler will have to add some additional heat to compensate for that subtracted by the heat pump.
How does this affect the overall energy efficiency of the heat pump water heater, as compared to other methods of making hot water? Rough noodling suggests that, considered from an overall system standpoint, the end result is that the heat pump water heater, if located in a conditioned space, will actually use the same amount (or even a bit more) total energy to provide the hot water than other approaches might...
There's no free lunch.
Note: this is a think piece, not an advocacy piece!
Comments?
There has been a lot of discussion and enthusiasm about heat pump water heaters. Unfortunately, at least some of it has overtones of free lunch.
Consider. A heat pump water heater works by extracting heat from the surrounding air and boosting the temperature of that heat and delivering it to water, thus heating the water. So far so good. It uses considerably less power to do that than fired or electric water heaters.
However. Problem. Where does that low temperature heat come from? The surrounding air, and it cools the surrounding air by a certain amount. Rather small, but it does. This is not a consideration if that surrounding air is outside air, or the water heater is in an unconditioned space. However, if it is in a conditioned space -- that is one that a furnace or boiler is striving to maintain at some set temperature -- then the furnace or boiler will have to add some additional heat to compensate for that subtracted by the heat pump.
How does this affect the overall energy efficiency of the heat pump water heater, as compared to other methods of making hot water? Rough noodling suggests that, considered from an overall system standpoint, the end result is that the heat pump water heater, if located in a conditioned space, will actually use the same amount (or even a bit more) total energy to provide the hot water than other approaches might...
There's no free lunch.
Note: this is a think piece, not an advocacy piece!
Comments?
Re: This weeks case, the case of the boiler descaler
Here is the link for the case. Hope you find it interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hn3ZgWi2u0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hn3ZgWi2u0
Re: Testing whether a pump is running
I an very much aware that many installers do not install an isolation valve on the pump outlet. However, if there is an isolation valve on the outlet, simply throttle it down and you'll hear the water flow change.
Re: Testing whether a pump is running
Energy is being delivered to the pump which is what the Danfoss tool picks up and identifies. In your case, that electrical energy is heating the pump instead of turning the impeller.
You can call it, "The case of the overheating pump.".
You can call it, "The case of the overheating pump.".
Re: Do steam experts recommend setting an additive ptrol to .5 (minimum) or closer to 1?
Long story short the main vent is inaccessible without breaking through the floor, so our long term plan is to remove the system and replace with something when this boiler reaches the end of its life (the single pipe system is over 100 years old), because our main vent is def not working right and isn’t accessible from basement or main level without opening up ceiling or floor due to mistakes the past owner made.Removing the system is a drastic and maybe regrettable idea.
I understand that the main vent is inaccessible right now. But what is keeping you from cutting a hole in the floor? Replace the main vent. Then have a talented craftsman fabricate a fancy access panel to cover the newly installed hole in the floor. You know my house has a hole in the front wall. I believe it was put there by the builder back in 1976. It makes it easy to get inside the house from outside and to my amazement it also works in reverse. I can go from outside to inside. It is amazing what ancient technology is out there!
And, to top it all off, the builder placed a door on that hole… That is a large flat block of wood with hinges on one side and some form of latch on the other side. Wonders never cease.
Edit: I had a friend that has a car where the windshield wipers wore out. Perhaps you would recommend purchasing a new car when that happens.
I had a friend that has a bicycle where the chain fell off the sprocket out. Perhaps you would recommend purchasing a new bicycle when that happens.
I had a friend that has a house where the paint was pealing. Perhaps you would recommend purchasing a new house when that happens.
Re: Do steam experts recommend setting an additive ptrol to .5 (minimum) or closer to 1?
If you find that your boiler often cycles (cuts out) during a heating cycle, you can minimize it by minimizing "set back" (where you lower your thermostat at night for example).
You can also replace (or supplement) your p-trol with a "vaporstat" which will force your system to stay at an even lower pressure, although this will tend to increase cycling (which isn't really any kind of major problem for atmospheric gas boilers, IMO)
They are pricey, but they are more likely to keep your pressure very nice and low. It is my opinion that any pressure over like .3 psi is wasteful.
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Honeywell-L408J1009-Vaporstat-Controller-Steam-0-to-16-oz-in2
You can also replace (or supplement) your p-trol with a "vaporstat" which will force your system to stay at an even lower pressure, although this will tend to increase cycling (which isn't really any kind of major problem for atmospheric gas boilers, IMO)
They are pricey, but they are more likely to keep your pressure very nice and low. It is my opinion that any pressure over like .3 psi is wasteful.
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Honeywell-L408J1009-Vaporstat-Controller-Steam-0-to-16-oz-in2
Re: American Standard Gas Boiler Burner Tubes
American Standard has not made boiler for probably 30 years so you may be out of luck. I think maybe Burnham bought them. @Steamhead would know.
I suppose you could try new burners and a new manifold from another MFG but the center to center spacing would have to be right. Probably not worth fiddling with from a safety standpoint. Probably time for a new boiler
I suppose you could try new burners and a new manifold from another MFG but the center to center spacing would have to be right. Probably not worth fiddling with from a safety standpoint. Probably time for a new boiler
Some Radiators not getting hot after replacing all steam traps in the entire building.
Hi all
I have replaced all steam traps including the f&t traps in a 12 story building this past summer.
Since the heating season has begun, I am getting complaints that some apartments are not getting hot, and when I came back to the building, to check out if the new ste traps are failed closed, I saw that the shut off valves are broken, and it needs to be replaced.
I have even open the union from the steam trap during a heating cycle and there was no steam or water coming out.
The resident from the apartment is saying that she had steam until this year.
Question is there a possibility of having a steam backflow, and the radiators where getting hot until this year from the steam trap side?
Or the new steam trap did in anyway brake the shut off valve?
I would really appreciate if someone can help me out there
Thanks in advance.
I have replaced all steam traps including the f&t traps in a 12 story building this past summer.
Since the heating season has begun, I am getting complaints that some apartments are not getting hot, and when I came back to the building, to check out if the new ste traps are failed closed, I saw that the shut off valves are broken, and it needs to be replaced.
I have even open the union from the steam trap during a heating cycle and there was no steam or water coming out.
The resident from the apartment is saying that she had steam until this year.
Question is there a possibility of having a steam backflow, and the radiators where getting hot until this year from the steam trap side?
Or the new steam trap did in anyway brake the shut off valve?
I would really appreciate if someone can help me out there
Thanks in advance.
Re: We need a contractor in King George County Virginia
Be sure cut the power off to the boiler before you work on the circulator.
Big place, how much land do you have? I friend of mine has an old plantation house in KG off 218.
Big place, how much land do you have? I friend of mine has an old plantation house in KG off 218.
Just keeping the house painted and the grass mowed must be a bit of work.
PC7060
2
Re: Losing my mind
Another issue: that’s a potable water expansion tank, not a hydronic one. The air charge pressure is set too high.
Ironman
3