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Re: Tankless limitations/ workarounds?
Vermont is one of 4 states that require mixing valves on all DHW sources. If this is a customers residence, best have one both for code compliance and liability.
No question they need maintenance depending on water hardness. Valve around it knowing this.
To get much output from the coil inside, you may need to maintain the tank at 140 or higher. That coil is designed for 180 f or higher SWT for indirect use. Pulling heat out, the opposite way will take some delta T, depending on what you expect for btu/ hr on the radiant? The only way to increase that output would be raising tank temperature, since your flow is limited by the tankless circulator.
No question they need maintenance depending on water hardness. Valve around it knowing this.
To get much output from the coil inside, you may need to maintain the tank at 140 or higher. That coil is designed for 180 f or higher SWT for indirect use. Pulling heat out, the opposite way will take some delta T, depending on what you expect for btu/ hr on the radiant? The only way to increase that output would be raising tank temperature, since your flow is limited by the tankless circulator.
hot_rod
2
Re: Navien combi units
What are your DHW demands? Storage-tank type water heaters will give you a buffer when a lot of hot water is being used. Combi units will typically only give you around 3gpm of untempered hot water which will let you shower and do the dishes at the same time, but any more than that and you will run into trouble.
Navien's seem to have a good reputation and good tech. support.
Navien's seem to have a good reputation and good tech. support.
Re: 2 year old boiler issues
I spent thousands on a 5 year labor, parts, and service warranty. Unfortunately if they can’t fix it, I will need to find a new company.clammy said:Fire them they are clue less . Even after re piping it’s still wrong . You need some one to repipe your boiler properly in steel and w a properly sized header ,equilizer and Hartford loop aside from usually updating main venting . As for cleaning that boiler they’re just lazy ,those side outlets boiler as the easiest to wand and flush and skim it sheer laziness stopping them . I high doubt skimming and cleaning alone will drastically improve your performance . The supply take off of the equilizer is garbage and is a sign of not knowing much about how to pipe a steam boiler and connect its mains properly to a header , not brain surgery . Check the find a pro listings on this site and possibly if you’re lucky some one is near and can give you a price to correct it all and get your system operating properly . Peace and good luck clammy
MJACK
2
Re: Simplified Radiant Cooling
Sounds dandy and extremely expensive . I feel no matter what this type of system will require a aux system to lower humidity as for chilled water a electric or gas fired absorption unit would be fine . I think being indoor space these days is limited to a shoe box for mechanicals including a buffer tank ,pumps ,3 ways valve to exactly control water and home humidity levels to determine indoor latent cooling temp while using indoor coils to lower humidity to prevent floor or ceiling condensation . It s a great idea but the practicality and cost I feel would be impractical . I have seen one system which used geo thermal and some 3 ways and a set point controller for the latent end and the rest went to unico air handlers and the mechanical room was a nightmare even though everything was insulated there was thermal migration and sweating pipes due to the system being a simple 2 pipe system using the same pipes for heating and cooling so there is no running the two at once but the boiler also made domestic hot water and the 2 way isolation valves still did not totally prevent thermal migration . This was all quite quite expensive and if it was not for a really huge rebates form the state and fed it would not have never been done . The Hvac end I believe was over 250 k and the rebate was about 1/3 . I guess the 1/3 us tax payers payed and I can say these people could have easily paid for the whole deal out of there pockets but they took our money to offset there mansions kitchen and wine cellar .
I feel the high cost of even radiant would never be considered in hud or low income housing just ain’t gonna happen plus cooling in northern climates a c is not required for a cert of occupation just heating .the other end is cost the cost would be double of a air based system and take up even more indoor room . Insulation and prevention of condensate forming on piping is a tough one especially w every one fearful of mold issues from moisture on building materials . Everyone will say of just insulate well if provisions and thought where going on while piping enough room would be left to properly insulate the piping but this insulation isn’t the piping guys issues so some times pipes do not get insulated properly due to spacing and piping yet another thing to consider . Another thought is in today world everyone wants instant everything .if your waiting for it to get cool w a radiant cooling you will be waiting like radiant heating it’s not fast and w a radiant cooling there will be no set backs due to the time it takes to cool the space . Trying not to be negative about your idea but cost is what keeps hydronic and radiant systems out of most new homes maybe hydro air or baseboard but hardly any mid tp low temp system w all radiant and or panel rads . Even when it is all radiant there’s usually a lot of corner cutting other wise the contractor would go broke and leave penniless .When taking w builders or gc there usually want the cheapest being they won’t be living there or paying the utility bills .
Peace and good luck clammy
I feel the high cost of even radiant would never be considered in hud or low income housing just ain’t gonna happen plus cooling in northern climates a c is not required for a cert of occupation just heating .the other end is cost the cost would be double of a air based system and take up even more indoor room . Insulation and prevention of condensate forming on piping is a tough one especially w every one fearful of mold issues from moisture on building materials . Everyone will say of just insulate well if provisions and thought where going on while piping enough room would be left to properly insulate the piping but this insulation isn’t the piping guys issues so some times pipes do not get insulated properly due to spacing and piping yet another thing to consider . Another thought is in today world everyone wants instant everything .if your waiting for it to get cool w a radiant cooling you will be waiting like radiant heating it’s not fast and w a radiant cooling there will be no set backs due to the time it takes to cool the space . Trying not to be negative about your idea but cost is what keeps hydronic and radiant systems out of most new homes maybe hydro air or baseboard but hardly any mid tp low temp system w all radiant and or panel rads . Even when it is all radiant there’s usually a lot of corner cutting other wise the contractor would go broke and leave penniless .When taking w builders or gc there usually want the cheapest being they won’t be living there or paying the utility bills .
Peace and good luck clammy
clammy
2
Re: New Boiler keeps getting Air Bound. I think?
Is the system installed in such a way that the system side circ can still operate while the DHW is producing hot water with the boiler circ. (Not wired to the boilers control but controled by the ZCB ) ?
We would have:
1. Installed this in a Primary/Secondy piping or a Low loss header arrangement.
2. Have a Auto delta p/delta t cir on the system side (Hindsights you could install and adjust a bypass valve)
3. Have the boilers control supply power to the circs.
4. Installed the fill valve in such a way that the gauge is visal without a neck injury
5. Installed a service valve that has a drain on the expansion tank for proper maintenance.
6. Any relief equipment would have to be hard piped not using electrical conduit/PVC and within 6" of the floor as per our local codes in order to pass inspection
7. Installed a Codensate neutralizer in order to pass inspection ..Maybe you have one on the other side of the wall ?
8. Used PVC for the combustion air.
9. Adjusted the Boiler with a combustion analyzer. Maybe you did this?
10. Not installed the ZCB in a place were fluid can drip on it and short it out.
11. Any wires would have to be restrained as per code in order to pass inspection.
12. Drip leg on the gasline ?
13. Rotated the 1" return manifold Ballvalve so that it is accessable
14. Restained the 3/4" lines
15. Installed the Manifold restraints on the return manifold.
As fenkel mentioned it could be a very small leak..
Based on the red flow indicators you may have also have some system fluid Maintenance requirements..
This Boiler was manufactured in 2020...Is this you first or second season?
Maybe...For now,start by closing the Auto air vents on the Manifolds but leaving the Discal vent open.
Hope this helps..
We would have:
1. Installed this in a Primary/Secondy piping or a Low loss header arrangement.
2. Have a Auto delta p/delta t cir on the system side (Hindsights you could install and adjust a bypass valve)
3. Have the boilers control supply power to the circs.
4. Installed the fill valve in such a way that the gauge is visal without a neck injury
5. Installed a service valve that has a drain on the expansion tank for proper maintenance.
6. Any relief equipment would have to be hard piped not using electrical conduit/PVC and within 6" of the floor as per our local codes in order to pass inspection
7. Installed a Codensate neutralizer in order to pass inspection ..Maybe you have one on the other side of the wall ?
8. Used PVC for the combustion air.
9. Adjusted the Boiler with a combustion analyzer. Maybe you did this?
10. Not installed the ZCB in a place were fluid can drip on it and short it out.
11. Any wires would have to be restrained as per code in order to pass inspection.
12. Drip leg on the gasline ?
13. Rotated the 1" return manifold Ballvalve so that it is accessable
14. Restained the 3/4" lines
15. Installed the Manifold restraints on the return manifold.
As fenkel mentioned it could be a very small leak..
Based on the red flow indicators you may have also have some system fluid Maintenance requirements..
This Boiler was manufactured in 2020...Is this you first or second season?
Maybe...For now,start by closing the Auto air vents on the Manifolds but leaving the Discal vent open.
Hope this helps..
Re: New Boiler keeps getting Air Bound. I think?
Combi boilers with an external pump must be piped primary secondary, when you call for DHW the valve in the boiler tries to move but your heating circ keeps running, stopping it from moving to the correct position. That is likely why turning everything off and back on fixes it, because you are resetting the diverter valve position. A re-pipe, per the manual is needed
GGross
2
Re: domestic hot water issue on 3rd floor
Hi, From your description, I think Zman nailed it. Sounds like a crossover or cross connection. It’s easy to test for. Shut off cold supply to the water heater and open any hot tap. If it keeps running and turns cold after a while, you know cold is getting in.
Yours, Larry
Yours, Larry
Re: Can you record heating zone activity? Using a device or add on?
@hot_rod - it can be useful to get per-zone data as the behavior between zones can vary significantly depending on how well/badly the system is designed (and with his 7-zone system, short cycling seems like the most obvious problem to look out for). Looking at the last few days from my system, for instance:
- Total_run_duty_cycle T 0.26 B 0.06 1st 0.17 2nd 0.06 Cycle_count: T 12 B 6 1st 8 2nd 8
- Total_run_duty_cycle T 0.23 B 0.03 1st 0.15 2nd 0.05 Cycle_count: T 14 B 2 1st 11 2nd 7
- Total_run_duty_cycle T 0.17 B 0.07 1st 0.08 2nd 0.05 Cycle_count: T 8 B 4 1st 5 2nd 3
- Total_run_duty_cycle T 0.16 B 0.08 1st 0.08 2nd 0.02 Cycle_count: T 7 B 5 1st 3 2nd 2
fentonc
1
Re: Burnham ES2 low return water temperature
Don’t bother with that bypass kit, it will not do what you think it will. Image 70 return from the radiators, boiler supplying under 130F for 20 minutes. How does that pump increase the return. It doesn’t, can’t won’tThe bypass pump will likely reduce the flow through the boiler down to 1Gpm or less when its 70F return., which is not a problem. Its not just temperature that matters, but the flow rate, especially with higher mass cast iron boiler ( won't work on low mass boilers like a copper tube). Thaat's how bypass piping works ( which is essentially what this pump set up its doing). If return temperature was the only criteria that needed to be met, nearly all two pipe steam boilers would be condensing nearly constantly since the return water is typically near room temperature much if not all winter. However, since steam systems only have to move about 1/50th the amount of water for the same btu output, return flow rates are quite low.
Buy a VS set point circ and one of these two piping. I added a buffer on one drawing to help that small radiant zone to not short cycle the boiler.
In these drawings the vs circ becomes your “thermal clutch”. Via the wonders of primary secondary piping the boiler disconnects from the load, until the boiler catches up.
The VS circ allows only the gpm the boiler can provide while staying above 130 return. So you will always get some amount to the radiators, 100% flow when return sees 130
100% absolute protection. Possibly less $$ also. Any circ operated by a tekmar vs control would work.
But some piping changes required.
If it were zone valves with a single circ, a simple thermostatic valve could have been installed. And eliminated about 500W of circulators
Re: Negative DC Voltage?
Negative DC Voltage?
Why all the negative talk? Everyone is always blaming the other guys... Electrical engineers are blaming the equipment designers. On the job technicians are blaming the electrical engineers... Democrats are blaming Trump. Republicans are blaming Biden... and nothing is getting done... We need to STOP all the negativity!And we should all start with DC Voltage.
Who is with me on this?
Who is with me on this?