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Re: Nailing the lid on the Suspended Tube Coffin
Same difference
Rob, you, and the radiant market are telling the customer what constitutes comfort. You are telling your customers that radiant floors are more comfortable than a decent radiator system, (for example) but you don't know it to be true. And it's not true.
Radiant floors are not the only way to create a comfortable heating system. That's just hype and hubris that can't be supported.
I tell people that I can produce an equally comfortable, but much more efficient and effective heating system using other, more reliable and effective techniques and we all know that it's true, and if you ask them later, they would tell you that it's true. Are you saying that they are "uncomfortable", or that they would be more comfortable with a cheap and cheesy radiant floor that is so constipated that it may not even be able to produce enough heat at design? I think that they would disagree.
For what it's worth, ASHRAE does define comfort as "that indoor condition at which an occupant expresses satisfaction with the thermal enviroment." They go on to say that different individuals, depending on their health and age and degree of physical activity etc will define comfort in differert ways. Engineers actually only have to "satisfy" 80% of the occupants of a building to be considered legally "successful". It's hard to account for the other 20% or exactly how "uncomfortable" they are.
Again, I notice that no one in this thread is responding to any discussion about performance issues. All I hear are discussions revolving around the raw ability of a heating system to carry design load. THAT IS NOT WHAT I MEAN WHEN I USE THE WORD "PERFORMANCE". I think that's unsophisticated, shallow thinking. You mentioned the possibility of "higher fuel bills". Your customers may be interested in this. This is one of the real measues of performance.
Also, Rob, I doubt very much much whether many folks in this country have much experience with a high performance radiator system. One with generous radiating surface in the room, above the floor and it's thermal resistance, one moving heat by convection directly into the room air, one on full reset that drives the boiler temp down to the lowest possible temp, one that is appropriately zoned to deliver the right amount of heat where and when it's needed, one that may even use proportional TRV's ir eveb proportional zone valves rather than on/off thermostats to provide the final measure of control to regulate space temperature, to provide homeostasis. That's what we are after, homeostasis, or consistant and controllable thermal equilibrium with the lowest possible energy input. That is where "comfort" comes from. The absence of discomfort. Satisfaction with the thermal environment.
We owe it to ourselves, our customers and our environment to carefully define comfort, performance, efficiency, and effectiveness. We're the pro's, it may seem arrogant, but we really do know more about comfort and performance and efficiency than our customers do. We live and breathe this ........ stuff. {private grin} We live with and, (hopefully), learn from our mistakes and improve our methods. Our customers respect us and pay us for our expertise, experience and best advice, just as we respect and pay others for theirs.
Monitor a heating system for a couple of years and evaluate the several numerical variables that constitute performance and then talk to me about comfort. There is much more to this issue that is being ignored and is only revealed to those willing to take a much closer, objective, look. The devil, as they say, is in the details.
Dale
Rob, you, and the radiant market are telling the customer what constitutes comfort. You are telling your customers that radiant floors are more comfortable than a decent radiator system, (for example) but you don't know it to be true. And it's not true.
Radiant floors are not the only way to create a comfortable heating system. That's just hype and hubris that can't be supported.
I tell people that I can produce an equally comfortable, but much more efficient and effective heating system using other, more reliable and effective techniques and we all know that it's true, and if you ask them later, they would tell you that it's true. Are you saying that they are "uncomfortable", or that they would be more comfortable with a cheap and cheesy radiant floor that is so constipated that it may not even be able to produce enough heat at design? I think that they would disagree.
For what it's worth, ASHRAE does define comfort as "that indoor condition at which an occupant expresses satisfaction with the thermal enviroment." They go on to say that different individuals, depending on their health and age and degree of physical activity etc will define comfort in differert ways. Engineers actually only have to "satisfy" 80% of the occupants of a building to be considered legally "successful". It's hard to account for the other 20% or exactly how "uncomfortable" they are.
Again, I notice that no one in this thread is responding to any discussion about performance issues. All I hear are discussions revolving around the raw ability of a heating system to carry design load. THAT IS NOT WHAT I MEAN WHEN I USE THE WORD "PERFORMANCE". I think that's unsophisticated, shallow thinking. You mentioned the possibility of "higher fuel bills". Your customers may be interested in this. This is one of the real measues of performance.
Also, Rob, I doubt very much much whether many folks in this country have much experience with a high performance radiator system. One with generous radiating surface in the room, above the floor and it's thermal resistance, one moving heat by convection directly into the room air, one on full reset that drives the boiler temp down to the lowest possible temp, one that is appropriately zoned to deliver the right amount of heat where and when it's needed, one that may even use proportional TRV's ir eveb proportional zone valves rather than on/off thermostats to provide the final measure of control to regulate space temperature, to provide homeostasis. That's what we are after, homeostasis, or consistant and controllable thermal equilibrium with the lowest possible energy input. That is where "comfort" comes from. The absence of discomfort. Satisfaction with the thermal environment.
We owe it to ourselves, our customers and our environment to carefully define comfort, performance, efficiency, and effectiveness. We're the pro's, it may seem arrogant, but we really do know more about comfort and performance and efficiency than our customers do. We live and breathe this ........ stuff. {private grin} We live with and, (hopefully), learn from our mistakes and improve our methods. Our customers respect us and pay us for our expertise, experience and best advice, just as we respect and pay others for theirs.
Monitor a heating system for a couple of years and evaluate the several numerical variables that constitute performance and then talk to me about comfort. There is much more to this issue that is being ignored and is only revealed to those willing to take a much closer, objective, look. The devil, as they say, is in the details.
Dale
Re: Nailing the lid on the Suspended Tube Coffin
You don't think so?
You think all or even a majority of suspended tube jobs are not heating the homes they are installed in adequately?
Could they be better? Sure. Or they could be baseboard, or FHA. Provided they were properly designed, the suspended tube job is still going to be more comfortable than baseboard, typically, or FHA, most definitely, and more efficient as well.
Fact is, not every job has the budget to do the kind of job we'd all like to do on every job. Sticking to the best is GREAT if you can do it. Not everyone can. Not every job needs to use 120 deg water or lower, not every job needs full indoor feedback and outdoor reset, not every job will even benefit that greatly from using radiant floor. The entire equation needs to be taken into account. Thermofin is top of the heap, no doubt, but there is a whole heap under it that would like to have good heat too!!!
_______________________________
Northeast Radiant Technology, LLC
Robert Brown, Co-Owner
NRTradiant.com
You think all or even a majority of suspended tube jobs are not heating the homes they are installed in adequately?
Could they be better? Sure. Or they could be baseboard, or FHA. Provided they were properly designed, the suspended tube job is still going to be more comfortable than baseboard, typically, or FHA, most definitely, and more efficient as well.
Fact is, not every job has the budget to do the kind of job we'd all like to do on every job. Sticking to the best is GREAT if you can do it. Not everyone can. Not every job needs to use 120 deg water or lower, not every job needs full indoor feedback and outdoor reset, not every job will even benefit that greatly from using radiant floor. The entire equation needs to be taken into account. Thermofin is top of the heap, no doubt, but there is a whole heap under it that would like to have good heat too!!!
_______________________________
Northeast Radiant Technology, LLC
Robert Brown, Co-Owner
NRTradiant.com
Unknown
1
Re: Nailing the lid on the Suspended Tube Coffin
Dale
You are incorrect. The hallmark of radiant is not low water temperature operation. The hallmark is warm, comfortable floors, as far as many end users are concerned.
I wholeheartedly agree that suspended tube sucks, however it does have a place in the radiant professional's "toolbox" of applications. I can count on the fingers of one finger how many times I seriously consider suspended tube for a project in a year, and we implement it even less than that. But it does work, it is cheap, and it does the job it is supposed to do: heat the floors. If proper design is done, of course.
Could it be better? Of course. But then again, if you drive 100 miles a year in your car, it doesn't make sense to pay twice as much for something with twice the gas mileage too. There are economic "balance points" that cannot be ignored.
_______________________________
Northeast Radiant Technology, LLC
You are incorrect. The hallmark of radiant is not low water temperature operation. The hallmark is warm, comfortable floors, as far as many end users are concerned.
I wholeheartedly agree that suspended tube sucks, however it does have a place in the radiant professional's "toolbox" of applications. I can count on the fingers of one finger how many times I seriously consider suspended tube for a project in a year, and we implement it even less than that. But it does work, it is cheap, and it does the job it is supposed to do: heat the floors. If proper design is done, of course.
Could it be better? Of course. But then again, if you drive 100 miles a year in your car, it doesn't make sense to pay twice as much for something with twice the gas mileage too. There are economic "balance points" that cannot be ignored.
_______________________________
Northeast Radiant Technology, LLC
Unknown
1
Re: Runtal Radiator sizing, EK Resolute RT oil boiler
Well, on a heat demand, the zone valves won't open until the boiler reaches I believe 140°. Not positive on that temp but just for arguments sake.
Once the zone valves open, the return temperature sensor monitors that water temperature and adjusts it's output temperature accordingly.
So if the return temperature drops too low, the zone valves will close while the burner continues to heat the water. It might take a few cycles of on/off with the zone valves until the return water temperature rises enough to keep them open.
Once the zone valves open, the return temperature sensor monitors that water temperature and adjusts it's output temperature accordingly.
So if the return temperature drops too low, the zone valves will close while the burner continues to heat the water. It might take a few cycles of on/off with the zone valves until the return water temperature rises enough to keep them open.
HVACNUT
1
Re: Runtal Radiator sizing, EK Resolute RT oil boiler
Wel, as you are aware, a radiator -- any radiator -- has a heating output (power) which is more or less directly proportional to the temperature difference between the radiator and the surroundings. (as the temperature of the radiation gets really high, beyond what we are worried about (I hope!) it's not linear any more but that's a side problem). So... if you have a radiator of a given size, and desire a certain power output, you will then be able to figure out the required size of the radiator. In your thought about the undersized radiator, if you could feed it hotter water it would radiate more -- and you might be warm enough (this is one of the areas where steam to hot water conversions gets people in trouble -- the hot water in the radiator is nowhere near as hot as the steam). Conversely, as you lower the temperature or the water and the radiator, you get less power from a given radiator.
So your bigger radiator needs lower temperature water or you'll be too warm. Now there are basically three ways to do that -- you can lower the average temperature over time, by stopping and starting the flow through the radiator, or you lower the actual temperature of the water by mixing the hot supply with colder return. Or, if the boiler itself can modulate, you can reduce the output temperature of the boiler.
Now for a non-condensing boiler, such as you mention, only the first and second options are possible -- and there is a situation where you can get into difficulty: if the boiler is really too small, it may not be able to deliver enough power to the radiation to keep the return temperature in the operating range, even if you turn it on or off. Without using a buffer tank or mixing valves, the boiler is going to be very unhappy.
So your bigger radiator needs lower temperature water or you'll be too warm. Now there are basically three ways to do that -- you can lower the average temperature over time, by stopping and starting the flow through the radiator, or you lower the actual temperature of the water by mixing the hot supply with colder return. Or, if the boiler itself can modulate, you can reduce the output temperature of the boiler.
Now for a non-condensing boiler, such as you mention, only the first and second options are possible -- and there is a situation where you can get into difficulty: if the boiler is really too small, it may not be able to deliver enough power to the radiation to keep the return temperature in the operating range, even if you turn it on or off. Without using a buffer tank or mixing valves, the boiler is going to be very unhappy.
Re: True vs. Published Steam Radiator EDR
Radiator sizing and EDR are usually somewhat subjective anyways. For example- btu/240 = sq.ft. edr is a 'rule of thumb' that will only get you close if you are around sea level. Even there its still b.s.
Nowhere in that equation is the temperature of the steam based on elevation or even the average temp of steam in the radiator which is 95% of the temp of the steam at the boiler.
I tend to size radiators with warren websters charts in the 1922 book titled steam heating. Its on this site someplace. I have a couple hard cover copies here at the shop. Radiators themselves are all different when it pertains to EDR. a 60 sq. ft 4 column radiator will do a poorer job of heating than a 60 sq. ft. two column. I know I probably just opened a can of worms.
Nowhere in that equation is the temperature of the steam based on elevation or even the average temp of steam in the radiator which is 95% of the temp of the steam at the boiler.
I tend to size radiators with warren websters charts in the 1922 book titled steam heating. Its on this site someplace. I have a couple hard cover copies here at the shop. Radiators themselves are all different when it pertains to EDR. a 60 sq. ft 4 column radiator will do a poorer job of heating than a 60 sq. ft. two column. I know I probably just opened a can of worms.
Re: Should I replace my well pressure tank? Pictures of inlet
Pump sizing back in the day was tricky, you needed a rather large tank to accept, between 40 and 60 psi, atleast 1 minute of run time, 2 minutes is better but even 1 minutes worth is optimistic. Even a largish tank is only going to take 10 gallons to fill the bladder between 40/60 in 1 minute.
the purpose of the run time is to dissipate the heat generated during start up. A pump that’s running is a happy pump, short cycling will shorten its life.
The upgrade we offer is the Franklin electric SubDrive which is a three phase induction(the newest ones are permanant magnet) motor which matches RPM between 1800 and 4800 to meet the demand with soft start rather than the typical pump running at 0 or 3450 rpm. You can now pump 15, 20, 25 gpm into the house at 70 psi using a 1.5/ 2 horse power motor without needing anything bigger than a 202 sized tank and in applications around 15 gpm we’ve used a stainless tank on the wall thats the size of a thermal expansion tank although I notice the pressure is steadier with the bigger tank, with the added benefit of built in pump protection in case you over pump the well. Not your cheapest option but when you compare apples to apples the price difference closes a bit because of the smaller tank and the smaller wire sizes allowed on the three phase wire chart.
if you priced out a standard system that could pump 20 gallons a minute vs a constant pressure I feel like you are getting a better value with the constant pressure because the performance is noticeably better even if the total expense is a little higher.
We actually special order 1”x 600’ rolls of 315 psi poly and routinely install 2 hp SubDrive motors with 10 gpm heads on them and they perform, at 70 psi, all the way down to the pump. To do this with a standard system just isn’t realistic.
in situations where the pump doesn’t need to be installed as deep higher gpm pump ends are installed on the same motor and it translates to a lot more water into the house but gives up the ability to pump to those depths.
the purpose of the run time is to dissipate the heat generated during start up. A pump that’s running is a happy pump, short cycling will shorten its life.
The upgrade we offer is the Franklin electric SubDrive which is a three phase induction(the newest ones are permanant magnet) motor which matches RPM between 1800 and 4800 to meet the demand with soft start rather than the typical pump running at 0 or 3450 rpm. You can now pump 15, 20, 25 gpm into the house at 70 psi using a 1.5/ 2 horse power motor without needing anything bigger than a 202 sized tank and in applications around 15 gpm we’ve used a stainless tank on the wall thats the size of a thermal expansion tank although I notice the pressure is steadier with the bigger tank, with the added benefit of built in pump protection in case you over pump the well. Not your cheapest option but when you compare apples to apples the price difference closes a bit because of the smaller tank and the smaller wire sizes allowed on the three phase wire chart.
if you priced out a standard system that could pump 20 gallons a minute vs a constant pressure I feel like you are getting a better value with the constant pressure because the performance is noticeably better even if the total expense is a little higher.
We actually special order 1”x 600’ rolls of 315 psi poly and routinely install 2 hp SubDrive motors with 10 gpm heads on them and they perform, at 70 psi, all the way down to the pump. To do this with a standard system just isn’t realistic.
in situations where the pump doesn’t need to be installed as deep higher gpm pump ends are installed on the same motor and it translates to a lot more water into the house but gives up the ability to pump to those depths.
Re: can dishwasher got damaged by running with hot water disconnected
If I disconnect a trap on a sink and don't properly cap it off, and there is a back up or someone runs, the sink, that's on me. I've seen Judges rule that way too in lawsuits. Mad Dog 🐕
Re: Really Weird P-Trap Config: Is This A Problem
I don't think that 1.5" vs 2" is a big difference in velocity and there are definitely good reasons to increase a shower or a washer standpipe or a laundry tub or kitchen sink. If you get too carried away with upsizing things you could end up with problems with clogging.
mattmia2
1