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Re: Condensation Issues in Chimney with New Boiler

It's one of three things; (1) the ductwork; (2) the ductwork, or; (3) the ductwork.

Spence

Condensation Issues in Chimney with New Boiler

We just purchased a new home in CT. It had the original 1960 Arcoleader oil boiler in it that was eating 35 gallons of oil a month just for domestic hot water. We replaced it with a Buderus G115WS4 linked to a stainless steel crown indirect. Great system by the way, sips oil.

Our installer, who was great and very knowledgeable(licensed Buderus installer), warned us that with a 2 story brick chimney on top of the story of flue in the foundation wall, we would get condensation issues, and probably have to line the chimney with stainless steel, but he said wait and see what happens. Well lo and behold, the boiler finally ran hard all night for the first time this week and we have about a quart or so of water dumping out of the lower flue door every night now from condensation(it's not running back to the boiler, we have a flue access clean-out built into the 10 inch poured concrete foundation).

Our installer is on vacation until December 2nd, so until I can discuss it with him I'm interested in getting as much info as I can.

First of all, our chimney has a combined flue for our living room fireplace and the boiler. If we line it with a reduced size stainless steel flue to reduce condensation and eliminate condensation damage to the mortar, that pretty much means our fire place is DOA correct, or will they be able to set it up so we can still use the fire place? It's just a standard fire place, not a wood burning stove.

Secondly, the installer said that the Buderus' flue exhaust temperature is so low due to it's efficiency, that even with proper sizing and lining, you can't eliminate condensation completely with a 2 story chimney because there is so much cooling off that happens by the time it exits 3 stories above, and it never runs long enough to really heat the chimney up and burn off the condensation. In that case, what do people do to control the moisture? I don't fancy having a water logged towel by our flue every night for the rest of our lives, even if it isn't damaging the chimney anymore. I believe the G115WS4 can be switched to a direct vent set up without a power vent(maybe I'm wrong?), but it would be VERY difficult to meet code with the orientation of our house, and exterior items where the venting would need to be, and costly to modify the chimney this way.

Well, we knew this was probably coming, now it is just a question of making a decision.

dziukap

Help with Weil-McLain CGa gas boiler?

Here's the manual for my boiler: https://www.weil-mclain.com/sites/default/files/field-file/CGa Series 3 Boiler Manual 0520.pdf

This boiler has been mostly fine since we moved in last year. Over the last couple weeks, we've occasionally been waking up to a cold house, with the lights on the control module flickering erratically (not like any error code from what I can tell). See YouTube video here for example:

https://youtu.be/W4E-Kigkn_M

The TSTAT/CIRC and LIMIT lights flicker on and off. Then they stay on as DAMPER and FLAME come on, but then TSTAT/CIRC and LIMIT flicker off again and everything turns off. Then the cycle repeats.

What I've been doing to resolve: I just turn the boiler off and step away for an hour. This is around 5am or so. Around 6am, I go back and switch the boiler on and it starts more or less working normally. I'll see the TSTAT/CIRC and LIMIT lights trip and turn off from time to time but it's an isolated incident during the daytime—it's only during the cold nights that it won't leave that cycle and create heat at all.

I've done the basic stuff suggested by my HVAC pro like cleaning the flame sensor and leaving the damper stuck open. Any suggestions?

Jaaan

Re: Electric steam boilers?

It would have been MUCH better to start a new thread on this...

Electric steam boilers do exist. Quite a number of manufacturers, in fact. As with any such project, you will want to do your arithmetic very thoroughly. It is possible, with a big enough array and counting on the "grid" to "store" electricity (it doesn't store it, of course) you might be economically ahead in the current regulatory and political environment. If you are thinking of this as a "green" solution, you will not be ahead, as that "stored" electricity which you use in the winter will be generated by natural gas -- at a third of the efficiency of a modern steam boiler. You will also be dependent on the grid keeping up in the winter, which it may or may not be able to do.

Jamie Hall

Re: Dumb geothermal question

That is probably true, but now let's add the problem of drawing your water from your house well. Providing 4.5 gpm from a 10 gpm pump, where the water is then let out into a natural runoff , ending in a lake. If you ran continually, then you run the risk of drying up your well. So, in my particular case the single stage on/off scenario is the one that works. If I were to dump it back down another well, then maybe your scenario would be better. But at this point, 3k to buy the hp, running for a year costs me 250.00 plus 40 more for running the well pump. So 300/year is not so bad a cost.
I just didn't understand how the new economical units worked.
Thanks for the explanation !

RonLud

Re: It's easy for you guys but

Looks good. How does it work?

Steamhead

Replacement / Sizing of boiler

I woke up in the middle of the night about 2 weeks ago worrying about my 23 year old Burnham boiler. It leaks a little and the near-boiler plumbing has some minor leaks. I've spent hours since then on this site learning a ton. I made the decision to make some calls this summer (off-season) to make plans to replace it at some point. Well, it apparently has a mind of its own and decided to quit yesterday. It appears to be the power vent motor, but it will be a couple of days before I can get somebody out here and a few more days for parts to arrive according to the repair guy. He's saying that he wants to see the setup first and diagnose the problem, but suggested that if my boiler is a 20+ year old leaker, that I might want to put the cost of a new power vent towards a whole new system. He's a big Burnham / US Boiler guy. The two other vendors in my area tend to do Rinnai-type systems for smaller and more efficient homes.

So I'd like to share what I've learned on here and see what you think.

Boiler is 198k in / 168k DOE out Burnham Series 2, 1999 build date. 4100 sf house, 2 levels, 5 zones + sidearm for DHW. All baseboard fintube. I've used Loadcalc many times for AC sizing in Texas, but didn't attempt it here (southern Colorado) because of so many different window sizes, wall exposures, ceiling heights, many many windows, etc. So I used a couple of "guesstimate" methods from here. From the propane use / highest bill calculation, my biggest load was around 84k BTUs / hr. From the feet-of-baseboard calc, if I use 550 BTU output per foot of fin tube, I get about 92K BTUs (167 feet of fintube, 170 degree water). From these and various permutations I get from these numbers, then multiplied by the ASHRAE 1.4% fudge factor, I can't see being able to use more than 120k BTUs.

I'll ask the repair guy to to a heat loss calc, but I still don't seem to have more than about 100k worth of baseboard output, and the house stays warm unless it gets down to -10 or so, then the temp goes into the low 60s inside. Not really a problem, and maybe difficult to add more baseboard. Another way-crazy guesstimate: One night it was 5 degrees outside (design temp for my area), thermostats at 65, and the boiler cycled on for about 8 minutes, off for about 8 minutes for a couple of hours. Of course the circulator (just one) was running sometimes when the boiler was off, so it was still heating, but I guess you could infer that very roughly half of the 168k capacity was needed (or useable) since it was running half the time.

So...smaller boiler? It seems to match what many of you have said about most boilers being oversized (however, the 45 BTU per SF method gets me to 186k...). And the big debate - CI or mod con? I can see it not condensing much of the time, but I would think the modulation would be a big help, especially with that many zones.

Thanks in advance for your help. I learned a lot on here.

RavenRidge

Re: Replacement / Sizing of boiler

The second Crazy Way pretty much confirms that the flame is on 50% of the time and off by the high limit the other 50% of the time so if you had a burner that was 1/2 of the size of the existing burner, you would be just fine at 5° outdoor temperature.

The actual best way is to do the load calculation for your home as it stands.

EDIT:
The next thing to check is the high limit temperature. If it is set at 180° and you are not getting sufficient heat at the very low outdoor temperatures, you can get more heat from those radiators by raising the high limit to 200°. Of course that will use a little more fuel over the year but you will be comfortable when it is really cold out.

EdTheHeaterMan

Re: Gas bill down 50% 🔥

I agree- great job.

You might want to go by degree-days though- it's a bit more accurate. Home page is here:

https://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/analysis_monitoring/cdus/degree_days/

The actual degree-day data files are here:

https://ftp.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/htdocs/degree_days/weighted/legacy_files/heating/statesCONUS/

Pick the location closest to you. You may have to interpolate a bit if the meter readings don't correspond exactly with the file dates.

We'll be interested to hear if the gas company wants to check your meter

Steamhead

Re: Comparing energy usage: 1 year of gas heat vs. 2 years of heat pump

If gas can be burnt in a combined cycle to power a heat pump or on-site, assuming the gas prices are similar/the same, the most efficient option wins if delivery prices are similar. That's currently the heat pump option for many places since combined cycle plants are the majority of gas generation. It uses less gas to get the same Btus. Is that what you're saying?

think your presumption of combined cycle is mistaken because you are looking across the electric load and supplementing renewables and peaking calls conventional gas turbines not combined cycle which takes longer to come online.

it is conceivable that more combined cycle might be called by plan anticipating demand, but stochastic decisions on the margin are not combined cycle and if you call too much combined cycle the efficiency drops without full capacity utilization.

if the extreme demand is cold then the COP of the heat pumps, even assuming combined cycle, does not necessarily suggest that is better approach. The best hyper heat pumps, ergo not most of them out there, can just crest 2 COP in the low single digits. That makes the distinction between gas turbine and combined cycle critical to this distinction as you at break even at best with 80% efficient home heating and gas turbine but still show a modest advantage with combined cycle. Meanwhile, the installed base is more like break even with combined cycle suggesting that we'd be better off and more resilient with gas heating during extreme consumption events.

I feel like you are trying to back into justification for heat pumps without fossil backup. This can work if residences are flexible on indoor temps during extreme events. I have friends who are willing to accept even the low end of @Jamie Hall 's supposition, when he mentions 60-85 target temps, during such events who are happy with heat pump only systems. This goes to @Jamie Hall point about taking the individual requirements and characteristics into consideration. (that would also include the insulation and sealing characteristics of the residence, perhaps the placement of outdoor units relative to compass, sun, wind with moisture, etc. Likewise, for me, that takes into account existing heating system!)

I certainly agree we have technology that could heat homes with heat pumps without backup, but I am saying that most homes already have heating and I would not abandon those systems but use them as tradeoffs given electric capacity questions even assuming relatively favorable seasonal COPs. In no small part this perception is also fueled by @Mad Dog_2 barking :-) regarding longevity/resilience (cost?) of equipment as a significant consideration. The hyper heat units are on the order of twice the cost of more standard decent but not extreme seer crossover AC to heat pumps. And refrigerant life for these units is pegged at 7 years for the average system by EPA. And service of almost any sort where refrigerant loss is suspected is by resort to complete evacuation (maybe the presumption that even with modest refrigerant loss refrigerant that is evacuated is not as regularly recharged is what leads to that 7 year figure or . . . ?). With those reliabilities or lack thereof, I'm less interested in general in recommending folks get out on the ledge of no backup, but that's me.

Maybe techs grasp of these units is going to improve those numbers, but I'll be watching for my own anecdotal evidence and for industry averages/norms in contemplating more favorable disposition toward these units. I like to think my practices would beat those industry numbers. But I don't have anything that has been in service for 7 years (like 4 years to go actually) before I know if I made it. Still wishing that the units generally had more and better taps for diagnosis and charging and maybe level indicators for the accumulator or built in indication for these metrics for that matter, i.e. better OBD. you can get faults out of many of them, but how about just multiple operating parameters without having to tap the system?

there is another 2¢ for ya.

brian

archibald tuttle