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for those of you who think going all electric will be Just Fine...

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Comments

  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 12,832
    jumper said:
    10kw is $1.20 for me. I just looked at the bill and used the final rate after all of the fees etc. For me, that would be $24 per 5 days vs my current $45 per 5 days using gasoline in a car that gets 44 MPG. So, the cost for fuel is almost half in my case assuming $5 per gallon. I'm betting most aren't getting the same gas mileage I am......
    Well in California a kwhr costs 40 cents delivered. California also has plenty of PV & sunshine plus lots of windmills. Many Tesla s are on the road. Are the drivers saving $$? My understanding is that baseload is power an electric system needs to deal with fluctuations like your A/C cycling. Probably worse if you have PV. Batteries can help smooth fluctuations on a DC system like Titanic had.
    I don't know.
    I don't live in California.  Ive heard rumor that gasoline costs far more there as well.   NJ is around $5 a gallon.

    DC isn't very good with transformers or power transmission.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    Hot_water_fan
  • JakeCK
    JakeCK Member Posts: 688
    There were already many people struggling with food/water/shelter, and now of course it's heading quickly into Worseland. So, Im on a smartmeter. Do they all feature the capability of opening the circuit remotely, for load shedding? Someone mentioned that above. I use a Cpap for breathing while I sleep. Our hydro provider does have a process where they can note electrically driven medical devices at your location, and this is supposed to prioritize service restoration. I never sent in the doctor's form to announce myself as such.. but maybe I should.
    Your meter probably does not support load shedding -- but I do think (personal opinion) that you should send in that form to inform the.
    If there are incentives (paid for by whom? Somebody has to cough up the cash) that's one thing. If there are mandates -- California, I'm looking at you -- that's quite another. For better or worse, that's what people are hearing. 
    Maybe the executives that are making the financial decisions to no longer invest in expanding refining capacity should cough up the cash. They are the ones making these decisions to maximize profits and ROI on already built infrastructure. 

    And maximizing profits they are. 


    That is their job. The idea is that people -- such as it might be you or I -- buy some shares in the company. We expect a decent rate of return on the money we invest. The objective of management is to run the company to provide that rate of return. Economics 101. In the current regulatory and political environment, if I were one of the executives, I'd not make any investments in new fossil fuel infrastructure. Not one dime. It's way too uncertain. Better off going to Vegas and playing the tables.
    Of course you're right. These are pages right out of Harvard business school. 

    But here is a thought, something so many forget, we are all, every single one of us, invested in this little blue and green space rock we call earth, and our society. Sure I have investments in Microsoft, alphabet, Facebook, and a dozen other tech stocks. But their long term potential is predicated on the continuation of our society and ecosystem. Now if I was just a day trader trying to make a quick buck sure I wouldn't care what happens to these companies a year down the road let alone 5, 10, 15, 20, etc. But those kind of people... have a special place at the gates of hell IMHO. And there in lies the problem. Most executives only care about maximizing profits and growth in the short term. They want everything to look great to get their payday then they bail and years down the road shtf. Perfect example is Eddie Lampert and Sears. That sob should be in jail. 

    I guess you could call this "external costs" but really are they?

    Now bringing it back to the original issue of refining capacity. Of course, why would they spend billions on new refineries when there is a sunset on carbon fuels. There would be no ROI. But maybe, just maybe, if these petrochemical companies hadn't spent the better part of the past century burying the evidence and pulling the wool over everyone's eyes and had instead invested in alternative fuels decades ago we wouldn't be having this conversation. At this point there is no way forward with out pain and loss. So no I haven't a single iota of sympathy for big oil, and am of the opinion that they need to pay for the crimes against humanity and the planet that they have committed. I only wish we could prosecute the actual executives themselves. But hey if society fails and it becomes a madmax dystopia, the rule of law will no longer be valid and if I was one of them that'd keep me up at night.

    And those thinking they kind buy a bunker and hide in a hole in the ground... Lol 
  • JakeCK
    JakeCK Member Posts: 688
    I also want to add it's almost like our whole society is going though the stages of grief with climate change and the reality of what that entails. Right now it seems we're still somewhere between denial and anger. :S
    Larry Weingarten
  • Hot_water_fan
    Hot_water_fan Member Posts: 521
    I know LA, and possibly the whole state by, I believe, 2035. New and existing.
    I read new buildings, in LA, starting next year. Not covering existing. That’s probably < 1% of buildings in LA. I think a fair critique of electrification is that it’s moving at a glacial pace. 
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 18,924
    Permit me to make a couple of final comments, then I will shut up. First, the potential for climate change has been evident for at least 40 years, and I spent some time at first commenting. Second, at that time -- 40 years ago -- it was evident that carbon dioxide was one of the main drivers, and it was also evident that the world economy could be substantially (not completely) decarbonized -- if that is the word --with existing technology at reasonable cost within a decade or two. Third, the problem got hijacked -- and I use the word deliberately -- by some rather extreme positions which blocked the use of, and continue to block the use of, the available technology.

    Now second phase. I and others in the climate study field have also determined that there were certain thresholds in the overall climate system which, if passed, were essentially irreversible without extraordinary cooling (on the order of 5 degrees Celsius)(one of the conclusions of my own Ph.D. thesis in Geophysics in 1982, backed up by other modelling later). I regret to inform you that one of those thresholds has already been passed, and it appears that the other may have been already and if not, will be quite soon. Both of these have to do with sea level rise and altered oceanic circulation in the North Atlantic.

    Bottom line: folks, you better start thinking about how you are going to cope with 3 to 6 meters of sea level rise, and much of Europe being substantially cooler and wetter, because it is going to happen -- and no hopeful tinkering with any of the above ideas is going to stop it.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    PC7060
  • JakeCK
    JakeCK Member Posts: 688
    @Jamie Hall it sounds like we are in agreement on a fundamental level. My only issue with what you are saying is that your making it sound as if we should just stop trying to decarbonize since we've already passed these first few tipping points.?

    It brings to mind when I see an old smoker sitting on their porch with an oxygen tank and tube in their neck with a cigarette stuck in it. Sure you've already got the tank and tube but better health begins the moment you stop sucking on the cancer stick.
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 18,924
    No, decargbonizing is still a decent idea -- though it won't do anything about sea level rise and European climate change. However, it needs to be done intelligently -- and globally. It still can be done, without damage to people in western and developing countries, and giving people in third world countries a chance at a better life -- and life style. It cannot be done by chasing windmills and rainbows, or shouting slogans, or filing lawsuits. None of that helps. What does need to be done urgently, however, is figuring out how to help people cope with rising sea levels. It's not just fancy cottages on the beach...
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • JakeCK
    JakeCK Member Posts: 688
    edited June 17
    Well one nice first step would be a moratorium on all new coastal developement. All these new houses and condos built in south Florida, the outer banks and other coastal areas people are flocking to is insanity. I do not know why or how any insurance companies is willing to insure these properties. 
    PC7060
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 18,924
    JakeCK said:

    Well one nice first step would be a moratorium on all new coastal developement. All these new houses and condos built in south Florida, the outer banks and other coastal areas people are flocking to is insanity. I do not know why or how any insurance companies is willing to insure these properties. 

    That would make sense... good for the environment, too.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • Zman
    Zman Member Posts: 7,330
    The internal combustion engine is a ridiculously complicated (and inefficient) piece of equipment that was designed at a time when we as a society did not have the technology or engineering chops to do better. No modern-day engineering class would dream up something like the internal combustion engine to perform the task of propelling vehicles, they would laugh at the idea. We are stuck with these super complicated and inefficient beasts because humans despise change, this thread is a great example.

    Regardless of the source of electricity, EVs are here to stay and I could not be happier. A simple electric motor that regens when slowing is a physics teacher's dream. There are no oils to change or oils seals to leak, no spark plugs to go bad, and you eliminate all the silly parts like rocker arms and push rods.

    As for the grid side of this, it will be a work in progress. I envision a system where the overnight home chargers are synched to the grid so they ramp up and down to help the grid stay stable and eliminate the need to "dump" power.

    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
    Larry WeingartenethicalpaulJakeCK
  • SlamDunk
    SlamDunk Member Posts: 1,283
    edited June 17
    JakeCK said:

    Well one nice first step would be a moratorium on all new coastal developement. All these new houses and condos built in south Florida, the outer banks and other coastal areas people are flocking to is insanity. I do not know why or how any insurance companies is willing to insure these properties. 

    Two weeks ago, a professor wrote an opinion piece encouraging readers, legislators, to consider laws to reverse development on our coast. He wrote that "95% of our coastal real estate property tax bills are sent out of state" meaning that these buildings are investment properties and that "no one will become homeless from tearing them down".

    The risk of investments should be, as always, borne by the investors. He also pointed out that the house that fell into the Atlantic in Rodanthe, NC last month polluted 14 miles of coastline forcing NC to tell beach goers not to walk the coast line barefoot or with soft bottom shoes for all the rusty nails in the water from this house which also polluted the coast line of our National Coastal Wildlife preserve which the Parks have to pay for to clean up...

    This professor has been warning us for the last 30 years I have been here that this will happen. He shows photos of our beaches 50 years ago compared to the same spot today. Who would build a highway fifty feet, or less in some places, from the ocean in a hurricane prone state? No one, but when highway 12 was built, the ocean was over 300 yards away from the Atlantic.

    The Hatteras lighthouse was originally built 1500 ft from the ocean but the ocean came within 20 ft of the light house. The Gov't moved it in 1999 2900' so that it is again 1500 ft away from the ocean.

    Call it what you want, but we were told in 1999 that the light house will eventually succumb to the sea within in a hundred years. If it isn't blocked by a paywall:

    https://www.newsobserver.com/opinion/article261971665.html
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 12,832
    Zman said:

    The internal combustion engine is a ridiculously complicated (and inefficient) piece of equipment that was designed at a time when we as a society did not have the technology or engineering chops to do better. No modern-day engineering class would dream up something like the internal combustion engine to perform the task of propelling vehicles, they would laugh at the idea. We are stuck with these super complicated and inefficient beasts because humans despise change, this thread is a great example.

    Regardless of the source of electricity, EVs are here to stay and I could not be happier. A simple electric motor that regens when slowing is a physics teacher's dream. There are no oils to change or oils seals to leak, no spark plugs to go bad, and you eliminate all the silly parts like rocker arms and push rods.

    As for the grid side of this, it will be a work in progress. I envision a system where the overnight home chargers are synched to the grid so they ramp up and down to help the grid stay stable and eliminate the need to "dump" power.

    So, the internal combustion engine is ridiculously complicated yet was designed at a time when we didn't have technology or engineering shops to do better.

    I have difficulty agreeing with that statement as it seems like it contradicts it self.

    And internal combustion engines are constantly upgraded and new ones are engineered. A 2022 car engine is hardly like one from 1910.

    And while they are horribly inefficient, most power generation isn't much better currently.
    Luckily, efficiency isn't the only thing that matters.

    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Zman
    Zman Member Posts: 7,330
    @ChrisJ, you are correct, the engine made in 2022 is far more complicated than the one from 1910. What you are calling upgrades, I am calling bandaids. I agree that power generation needs to change and there are plenty of plans in motion working on that.

    EVs have no idling energy loss, regen braking not only stores the energy lost in the slowing stopping process but also saves brake wear.

    I don't agree with everything coming from the "electrify everything" movement bt I am looking forward to less highway pollution and fewer tanker trucks on the roads...
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
    ethicalpaul
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 12,832
    Zman said:

    @ChrisJ, you are correct, the engine made in 2022 is far more complicated than the one from 1910. What you are calling upgrades, I am calling bandaids. I agree that power generation needs to change and there are plenty of plans in motion working on that.

    EVs have no idling energy loss, regen braking not only stores the energy lost in the slowing stopping process but also saves brake wear.

    I don't agree with everything coming from the "electrify everything" movement bt I am looking forward to less highway pollution and fewer tanker trucks on the roads...

    I'm not not against electric cars, or for them I guess.

    No idling loss is true, except when it comes to air conditioning and heating. Obviously heating with a gasoline or diesel vehicle is using waste heat so it's "free" so to speak, or less wasted. With air conditioning I don't know how an electric car compares to a gasoline car stuck in traffic barely moving on a 90-100F day in the sun. The gasoline or diesel engine idling is horribly inefficient, I think there's little doubt about that, a 100-300HP engine producing 5HP isn't good regardless.

    But, how does the overall efficiency of the electric car compare under those circumstances. There's 3 benefits I can think of for electric. 1: It can have a hermetic compressor. 2: Less noise. 3: Less heat. But I'd be curious to see actual real world numbers between the two.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 3,739
    I'm not sure it matters, Chris. It's a nice little heat pump. The benefits of an EV car for "get around" driving (my mom is 85 miles away and I don't have to stop to charge to visit her with it) so outweigh an IC engine, the heating and cooling of the passenger compartment is a rounding error.
    1 pipe Peerless 63-03L in Cedar Grove, NJ, coal > oil > NG
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 12,832

    I'm not sure it matters, Chris. It's a nice little heat pump. The benefits of an EV car for "get around" driving (my mom is 85 miles away and I don't have to stop to charge to visit her with it) so outweigh an IC engine, the heating and cooling of the passenger compartment is a rounding error.


    Considering on the size of automotive air conditioners I highly doubt that compressor is a rounding error.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 16,288
    Zman said:

    The internal combustion engine is a ridiculously complicated (and inefficient) piece of equipment that was designed at a time when we as a society did not have the technology or engineering chops to do better. No modern-day engineering class would dream up something like the internal combustion engine to perform the task of propelling vehicles, they would laugh at the idea. We are stuck with these super complicated and inefficient beasts because humans despise change, this thread is a great example.

    Regardless of the source of electricity, EVs are here to stay and I could not be happier. A simple electric motor that regens when slowing is a physics teacher's dream. There are no oils to change or oils seals to leak, no spark plugs to go bad, and you eliminate all the silly parts like rocker arms and push rods.

    As for the grid side of this, it will be a work in progress. I envision a system where the overnight home chargers are synched to the grid so they ramp up and down to help the grid stay stable and eliminate the need to "dump" power.

    Two bearings, one rotating part in electric motors.
    Compared to eight reciprocating pistons accelerating to 300 mph and constantly changing direction, valves opening and closing, so much friction to overcome.
    Amazing that internal combustion, recip engines perform as well as they do. If that much engineering times goes into solving electric generation and distribution, we will be fine.

    Could it be a simple as upping voltage in distribution grids, replace and upgrade transformers? Move more power in the existing wires?
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    Zman
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 18,924
    Can't just raise the voltage -- the insulators are designed to handle a certain voltage reliably, and no more.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    Solid_Fuel_Man
  • Hot_water_fan
    Hot_water_fan Member Posts: 521
    And while they are horribly inefficient, most power generation isn't much better currently.


    A new combined cycle plant is about 60% efficient. Assuming 5% line losses and an EV getting 4mi/kwh, that means an EV uses 65% less energy/mile than a Prius! That's much better. Even cut in half, that's much better.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 12,832
    hot_rod said:

    Zman said:

    The internal combustion engine is a ridiculously complicated (and inefficient) piece of equipment that was designed at a time when we as a society did not have the technology or engineering chops to do better. No modern-day engineering class would dream up something like the internal combustion engine to perform the task of propelling vehicles, they would laugh at the idea. We are stuck with these super complicated and inefficient beasts because humans despise change, this thread is a great example.

    Regardless of the source of electricity, EVs are here to stay and I could not be happier. A simple electric motor that regens when slowing is a physics teacher's dream. There are no oils to change or oils seals to leak, no spark plugs to go bad, and you eliminate all the silly parts like rocker arms and push rods.

    As for the grid side of this, it will be a work in progress. I envision a system where the overnight home chargers are synched to the grid so they ramp up and down to help the grid stay stable and eliminate the need to "dump" power.

    Two bearings, one rotating part in electric motors.
    Compared to eight reciprocating pistons accelerating to 300 mph and constantly changing direction, valves opening and closing, so much friction to overcome.
    Amazing that internal combustion, recip engines perform as well as they do. If that much engineering times goes into solving electric generation and distribution, we will be fine.

    Could it be a simple as upping voltage in distribution grids, replace and upgrade transformers? Move more power in the existing wires?

    Considering we've had good electric motors for well over 100 years I'm not really comparing them directly to an internal combustion engine. I don't think that's fair.

    So, let's compare the engine and it's controls, fuel storage etc to an EV with it's motor, controls and battery. One system vs the other.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 18,924
    At some risk of sounding like a pedant (wouldn't be the first time), perhaps it is worth remembering the actual engineering distinction between an engine and a motor. An engine is a device which is used to convert heat energy (usually, but not always, from combustion) into mechanical energy (it can be either internal combustion, like a car, or external combustion like a boiler and steam turbine). A motor is a device which is used to convert electrical or in some cases hydraulic energy into mechanical energy.

    The crucial difference is that a motor requires an external source of power. An engine requires a heat source, usually fuel, but not an external source of power.

    (Before someone calls me on it, small electric motors can be run from primary batteries, which do convert chemical energy into electrical energy. Larger ones can be run similarly from fuel cells, some of which do convert primary fuels into electrify directly. Primary batteries aren't feasible for any large applications, and fuel cells aren't part of the discussion at the moment).

    Any valid consideration of complexity or efficiency MUST take into account the complete chain from the original energy source -- fuel, sun, wind, tides, whatever -- to the final output -- a rotating shaft. Otherwise, the discussion is leaving out material points.

    Considering the modern internal combustion engine, to which reference has been made, it is worth remembering that much of the complexity is there to provide a highly efficient -- and clean -- power source which can operate over a remarkably wide range of power outputs. This is not quite as simple as it sounds.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    Solid_Fuel_Man
  • Sal Santamaura
    Sal Santamaura Member Posts: 381

    If there are incentives (paid for by whom? Somebody has to cough up the cash) that's one thing. If there are mandates -- California, I'm looking at you -- that's quite another...

    California has a $97 billion budget surplus this year. I've been paying state income taxes here since 1978, most at the highest or next-to-highest marginal rates, contributing to that surplus. I support both the state 2035 gasoline new car ban mandate as well as publicly subsidized funding for those at lower income levels whenever their existing gasoline-powered vehicles can no longer be repaired and must be replaced with EVs. I reject calls to decrease state income taxes. Everyone, including me, breathes air and deals daily with anthropogenic global warming's (AGW's) effects on weather. It's only fair that we share the burden of mitigating those degradations.

    Since retirement, and even more so due to the pandemic, I've accumulated very few miles per year on my soon-to-be 20-year-old Honda Accord. From a net energy perspective, I contribute far less to AGW by keeping it than by purchasing an EV. However, should ever be there be a reason for me to replace the Accord, I'd not even consider an overpriced, unreliable Tesla. Instead, the most likely EV purchased would be something similar in reliability/size/type to my Honda. Consumer Reports' Annual Buying Guide will be the primary reference source consulted, just as it was in 2002 when I bought my current car. While in possession of sufficient resources to purchase "wheels" that cost many multiples of what midsize sedans go for, I'm smarter than to waste them on fads, status or Veblen goods.

    @STEAM DOCTOR some of the anxiety comes from the “forcing” part. But is that real? How many people are being forced into using just electricity? Anyone besides new buildings in Berkeley? 

    ...I know LA, and possibly the whole state by, I believe, 2035. New and existing.

    You're likely referring to some cities/counties limiting new natural gas hookups. It's not yet, to my knowledge, state wide. And existing natural gas hookups aren't covered. Note that my comment above about taxpayers subsidizing electrical replacements when existing equipment can no longer be replaced applies to natural gas-fired appliances as well.
    ChrisJ said:

    I don't know.
    I don't live in California.  Ive heard rumor that gasoline costs far more there as well.   NJ is around $5 a gallon...

    We filled up my wife's car yesterday -- first time in three months. Price for regular was $6.38/gallon. Typical for this area now.

    It's been at least 20 years since I started saying gasoline should be at least $5/gallon to encourage ending use of fossil fuels. Unfortunately, after adjusting for inflation, we're not there yet.
    JakeCK said:

    Well one nice first step would be a moratorium on all new coastal developement. All these new houses and condos built in south Florida, the outer banks and other coastal areas people are flocking to is insanity. I do not know why or how any insurance companies is willing to insure these properties. 

    Agreed. Back in 1982/1983, an El Niño winter, we donned our rain gear and walked a mile to the bluffs overlooking Pacific Coast Highway in Capistrano Beach. As it came down in buckets and huge waves crashed onto the shore below, we watched several homes wash out to sea. I concluded that, even if some massive lottery jackpot came our way, there was no intelligent reason to ever consider living in a place like that. Interestingly, the bluff we were standing on, a typical southern California "mud pile," had homes nearby. The average bluff edge rate of erosion is one foot per year. Consequently, banks would not issue mortgages for such residences unless they were at least 30 feet from the precipice. :)

    JakeCKethicalpaul
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 12,832

    At some risk of sounding like a pedant (wouldn't be the first time), perhaps it is worth remembering the actual engineering distinction between an engine and a motor. An engine is a device which is used to convert heat energy (usually, but not always, from combustion) into mechanical energy (it can be either internal combustion, like a car, or external combustion like a boiler and steam turbine). A motor is a device which is used to convert electrical or in some cases hydraulic energy into mechanical energy.

    The crucial difference is that a motor requires an external source of power. An engine requires a heat source, usually fuel, but not an external source of power.

    (Before someone calls me on it, small electric motors can be run from primary batteries, which do convert chemical energy into electrical energy. Larger ones can be run similarly from fuel cells, some of which do convert primary fuels into electrify directly. Primary batteries aren't feasible for any large applications, and fuel cells aren't part of the discussion at the moment).

    Any valid consideration of complexity or efficiency MUST take into account the complete chain from the original energy source -- fuel, sun, wind, tides, whatever -- to the final output -- a rotating shaft. Otherwise, the discussion is leaving out material points.

    Considering the modern internal combustion engine, to which reference has been made, it is worth remembering that much of the complexity is there to provide a highly efficient -- and clean -- power source which can operate over a remarkably wide range of power outputs. This is not quite as simple as it sounds.


    A while back I tried to prove that to my self and every definition of a motor and engine I found considered both to be the same thing. I've always thought of engines vs motors exactly as you described, but it seems like as far as the definitions go, not so much.

    Though there is this,
    https://engineering.mit.edu/engage/ask-an-engineer/whats-the-difference-between-a-motor-and-an-engine/


    Now, for real fun.....
    Try to figure out the difference between a bolt and a screw. The best I could do is a bolt must have a nut, but that really doesn't describe the item it self, because literally the same "screw" can use a nut, or go into a threaded item. So technically, I guess there's screws, and screws can be used in a bolted joint but calling a screw a bolt is technically wrong.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    ratio
  • JakeCK
    JakeCK Member Posts: 688
    edited June 17
    SlamDunk said:
    Well one nice first step would be a moratorium on all new coastal developement. All these new houses and condos built in south Florida, the outer banks and other coastal areas people are flocking to is insanity. I do not know why or how any insurance companies is willing to insure these properties. 
    Two weeks ago, a professor wrote an opinion piece encouraging readers, legislators, to consider laws to reverse development on our coast. He wrote that "95% of our coastal real estate property tax bills are sent out of state" meaning that these buildings are investment properties and that "no one will become homeless from tearing them down". The risk of investments should be, as always, borne by the investors. He also pointed out that the house that fell into the Atlantic in Rodanthe, NC last month polluted 14 miles of coastline forcing NC to tell beach goers not to walk the coast line barefoot or with soft bottom shoes for all the rusty nails in the water from this house which also polluted the coast line of our National Coastal Wildlife preserve which the Parks have to pay for to clean up... This professor has been warning us for the last 30 years I have been here that this will happen. He shows photos of our beaches 50 years ago compared to the same spot today. Who would build a highway fifty feet, or less in some places, from the ocean in a hurricane prone state? No one, but when highway 12 was built, the ocean was over 300 yards away from the Atlantic. The Hatteras lighthouse was originally built 1500 ft from the ocean but the ocean came within 20 ft of the light house. The Gov't moved it in 1999 2900' so that it is again 1500 ft away from the ocean. Call it what you want, but we were told in 1999 that the light house will eventually succumb to the sea within in a hundred years. If it isn't blocked by a paywall: https://www.newsobserver.com/opinion/article261971665.html
    I had seen the news report of that house washing into the Atlantic.

    And I've been in that light house. 

    Absolutely love camping down there. First time was just the wife and I, a tent, some coolers and the better part of a week camping with in walking distance of the ocean. Could see the Hatteras light house from with in the tent at night. That combined with the sound of the ocean was some of the best sleep I've ever had. 

    Every time I drive down there I'm angered by all the new construction, the abuse of the land, the carelessness of other visitors, and the fact that by the time my son and daughter are my age it will all be gone. My grandchildren, if I ever have any, will never know that joy. 

    Also when I go down there I find the further south I drive the less people there are and the better it is. 

    Edit: added some pictures from that camping trip. Had the Cape Point campground almost entirely to ourselves. Went a week before memorial day. Only part that really sucked was the cold showers. The one picture shows the path the light house was moved in.


    SlamDunk
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 18,924
    I'm not at all sure that Isaiah Smith, in a shotgun house in the flats of Oakland, or Hector Aguilea, in a shack just south of Bakersfield, would agree with you, @Sal Santamaura -- but that's what privilege is all about.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • SlamDunk
    SlamDunk Member Posts: 1,283
    Those photos were after the move. Before the move, when you looked down, you had to lean way over the rail to see the rocks below at the foot of the light house. The actual move was a true feat of engineering. Inch by Inch. Wish I had photos but it was before camera phones and the cloud.
  • Sal Santamaura
    Sal Santamaura Member Posts: 381

    I'm not at all sure that Isaiah Smith, in a shotgun house in the flats of Oakland, or Hector Aguilea, in a shack just south of Bakersfield, would agree with you, @Sal Santamaura -- but that's what privilege is all about.

    Exercising search engines doesn't reveal much about either of those people, other than they might have been involved in criminal activity, but those are common names, so who knows. In any case, since you brought them up, I can only assume they're at the lowest economic rungs of our society.

    Why would poor people not agree with me? I advocated that, if they can't afford to replace a gasoline-powered vehicle or fossil fuel-powered home appliance when it becomes necessary to do so, we privileged taxpayers of California give them the money to do so. If you're focusing solely on my comment about the desirability of higher gasoline prices, why ignore what you know from previous conversations to be my position on that subject, namely, that we ought subsidize those too for the poor?

    California legislators and its governor are wrangling over the specific structure of a program to offset higher gasoline prices. I prefer that my surplus tax money be used in a way closer to what the legislature seeks, namely, an even more stringently means tested "rebate" than they've proposed, and only to those whose gasoline expenditures represent a substantial percentage of their income. There have been too many unneeded checks sent to me and those of similar "privilege" over the last few years. Enough.
    JakeCKethicalpaul
  • JakeCK
    JakeCK Member Posts: 688
    SlamDunk said:
    Those photos were after the move. Before the move, when you looked down, you had to lean way over the rail to see the rocks below at the foot of the light house. The actual move was a true feat of engineering. Inch by Inch. Wish I had photos but it was before camera phones and the cloud.
    I know those photos were after. I purposely took a picture of the path they took to move it. 
    SlamDunk
  • jumper
    jumper Member Posts: 1,833

    NYC. New construction. Plus, Con Edison isn't forcing but "convincing" New Yorkers (through rebate programs) to decomission boilers and install mini splits for heating. There are thousands of homes in Brooklyn/Queens that have switched.  Can't tell you how many of them called me crying, this past winter. Bills through the roof and cold( especially on frigid days).

    QuebecHydro convinced homeowners to trash oil burners. Then one winter night a freak ice storm downed miles of transmission towers delivering electricity to Montreal.
    pecmsg
  • ratio
    ratio Member Posts: 3,174
    I think th
    jumper said:

    NYC. New construction. Plus, Con Edison isn't forcing but "convincing" New Yorkers (through rebate programs) to decomission boilers and install mini splits for heating. There are thousands of homes in Brooklyn/Queens that have switched.  Can't tell you how many of them called me crying, this past winter. Bills through the roof and cold( especially on frigid days).

    QuebecHydro convinced homeowners to trash oil burners. Then one winter night a freak ice storm downed miles of transmission towers delivering electricity to Montreal.
    Why disagree? Is Quebec not strong on electric heat? Did Montreal not lose power for what sounds like a significant time in the middle of winter?
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 18,924
    ratio said:

    I think th

    jumper said:

    NYC. New construction. Plus, Con Edison isn't forcing but "convincing" New Yorkers (through rebate programs) to decomission boilers and install mini splits for heating. There are thousands of homes in Brooklyn/Queens that have switched.  Can't tell you how many of them called me crying, this past winter. Bills through the roof and cold( especially on frigid days).

    QuebecHydro convinced homeowners to trash oil burners. Then one winter night a freak ice storm downed miles of transmission towers delivering electricity to Montreal.
    Why disagree? Is Quebec not strong on electric heat? Did Montreal not lose power for what sounds like a significant time in the middle of winter?
    more than a week. It was fun
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • Solid_Fuel_Man
    Solid_Fuel_Man Member Posts: 2,449
    What we are asking of the grid is something it was not designed to handle when it was engineered decades ago. 

    It is akin to having a 1/2" gas service to every house for lighting only. Then more houses are built, and gas is used to cook with and heating. The pipe buried in the ground is both old and undersized for today's use. 

    EVs are great in many cases, they are not, however green. The battery technology and production of them is very energy intensive. That will likely change as the battery tech progresses, like the internal combustion engine. 

    I see a large part of the trouble with a utility being relied upon for something as it is a natural monopoly. That can mean 2 things. Either it is grossly underfunded and allowed to be held together with patches and band-aids, or very overpriced with a lot of waste built into the system. There is no incentive to innovate, upgrade, or be competitive. 

    Back to EVs. They are indeed a physics dream, always have been. It is the battery technology which has always held the EV back. We could always have Mr.Fusion on board every vehicle.... but that isn't the safest option! 

    Serving Northern Maine HVAC & Controls. I burn wood, it smells good!
    Zman
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 16,288
    ChrisJ said:

    hot_rod said:

    Zman said:

    The internal combustion engine is a ridiculously complicated (and inefficient) piece of equipment that was designed at a time when we as a society did not have the technology or engineering chops to do better. No modern-day engineering class would dream up something like the internal combustion engine to perform the task of propelling vehicles, they would laugh at the idea. We are stuck with these super complicated and inefficient beasts because humans despise change, this thread is a great example.

    Regardless of the source of electricity, EVs are here to stay and I could not be happier. A simple electric motor that regens when slowing is a physics teacher's dream. There are no oils to change or oils seals to leak, no spark plugs to go bad, and you eliminate all the silly parts like rocker arms and push rods.

    As for the grid side of this, it will be a work in progress. I envision a system where the overnight home chargers are synched to the grid so they ramp up and down to help the grid stay stable and eliminate the need to "dump" power.

    Two bearings, one rotating part in electric motors.
    Compared to eight reciprocating pistons accelerating to 300 mph and constantly changing direction, valves opening and closing, so much friction to overcome.
    Amazing that internal combustion, recip engines perform as well as they do. If that much engineering times goes into solving electric generation and distribution, we will be fine.

    Could it be a simple as upping voltage in distribution grids, replace and upgrade transformers? Move more power in the existing wires?

    Considering we've had good electric motors for well over 100 years I'm not really comparing them directly to an internal combustion engine. I don't think that's fair.

    So, let's compare the engine and it's controls, fuel storage etc to an EV with it's motor, controls and battery. One system vs the other.
    Allegedly 1/3 of the electricity consumed worldwide is used to power a pump of some sort. So the use of new technology ECM has and can be a significant reduction of consumption. 50% reduction is not uncommon, so I'd say electric motor technology have had a large impact on power use. Rudys diesel circa 1890 ran about 26%.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Dave Carpentier
    Dave Carpentier Member Posts: 172


    California legislators and its governor are wrangling over the specific structure of a program to offset higher gasoline prices. I prefer that my surplus tax money be used in a way closer to what the legislature seeks, namely, an even more stringently means tested "rebate" than they've proposed, and only to those whose gasoline expenditures represent a substantial percentage of their income. There have been too many unneeded checks sent to me and those of similar "privilege" over the last few years. Enough.

    How does one draw the line there ? There are obvious bookends like the single mom working min wage vs the multi-millionaire that just bought a new 40' sailboat with cash.
    The middle-class is a vast assortment of debt loads vs incomes.
    Surely we wouldnt penalize high debt load families with increased costs and at the same time deny them any cost relief because "they should have known better" ?
    30+ yrs in telecom outside plant.
    Currently in building maintenance.
  • Sal Santamaura
    Sal Santamaura Member Posts: 381


    California legislators and its governor are wrangling over the specific structure of a program to offset higher gasoline prices. I prefer that my surplus tax money be used in a way closer to what the legislature seeks, namely, an even more stringently means tested "rebate" than they've proposed, and only to those whose gasoline expenditures represent a substantial percentage of their income. There have been too many unneeded checks sent to me and those of similar "privilege" over the last few years. Enough.

    How does one draw the line there ? There are obvious bookends like the single mom working min wage vs the multi-millionaire that just bought a new 40' sailboat with cash...

    Perhaps Dave Carpentier runs for office and figures out the best way to draw that line. :smile:

    ...Surely we wouldnt penalize high debt load families with increased costs and at the same time deny them any cost relief because "they should have known better" ?

    Unless their high debt load was a result of medical expenses, I sure would. But I'm not in charge, just a commenter in the peanut gallery like everyone else here. :smiley:
  • ratio
    ratio Member Posts: 3,174

    What we are asking of the grid is something it was not designed to handle when it was engineered decades ago.

    If it's now expected to supply 100% of my energy, I'm afraid I'm going to have to insist that it actually be able to provide 100% of my energy. I'm not even going to sign off on something like 95% of what's necessary, because that last 5% is when it's most needed.
    EVs are great in many cases, they are not, however green. The battery technology and production of them is very energy intensive. That will likely change as the battery tech progresses, like the internal combustion engine.
    Right. Too often, those expenses that one need to put some thought into are hand-waved away or just ignored entirely.
    …We could always have Mr.Fusion on board every vehicle.... but that isn't the safest option!
    IDK, when was the last time you heard of a time machine blowing up?

    Solid_Fuel_Man
  • HomerJSmith
    HomerJSmith Member Posts: 1,562
    edited June 18
    It's interesting reading the comparison of internal combustion cars running on fossil fuels versus electric cars running on fossil fuels. hahaha

    The market place is going to determine the winner. And that is going to be based upon economics. No one ever had to legislate television (radio with pictures). It succeeded on its own in the market place.

    I'm always leery about government edicts. They're seldom right and they serve an agenda. They rarely take into consideration the consequences other than short sighted goals, which is why they fail so spectacularly. Expecting government to solve the global warming quandary and getting it right is expecting a miracle. Miracles don't come from government, but I understand from someplace else.

    Government is anti-progress with all its rules and regulations. The only progress government succeed at is expanding its own powers and rewarding its crony friends.

    I'm still waiting for any living animal other than humans to put together a 747. It's been a long wait. Maybe Homo Sapiens are a special creation. hmmm If so, what does that mean?

    Sal SantamauraSolid_Fuel_Man
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 16,288

    It's interesting reading the comparison of internal combustion cars running on fossil fuels versus electric cars running on fossil fuels. hahaha

    The market place is going to determine the winner. And that is going to be based upon economics. No one ever had to legislate television (radio with pictures). It succeeded on its own in the market place.

    I'm always leery about government edicts. They're seldom right and they serve an agenda. They rarely take into consideration the consequences other than short sighted goals, which is why they fail so spectacularly. Expecting government to solve the global warming quandary and getting it right is expecting a miracle. Miracles don't come from government, but I understand from someplace else.

    Government is anti-progress with all its rules and regulations. The only progress government succeed at is expanding its own powers and rewarding its crony friends.

    I'm still waiting for any living animal other than humans to put together a 747. It's been a long wait. Maybe Homo Sapiens are a special creation. hmmm

    I've read in 2022, close to 40% of Texas energy is now renewable, PV and wind. It has been bailing out their under-sized fossil fueled systems, multiple timers already this year. 11% is nuclear, whatever category you want to put that. So the energy is available, as for the wire and grid that is another challenge. Texas has their own grid and cannot import or export electricity, easily.

    Texas is by far the biggest wind producer 17,813MW compared to Iowa in 2nd place at 6,212, CA. 6,108.

    Gosh, I wonder who owns and finances those wind farms :) I suspect it is in the stock holdings, mutual funds, of many elected officials that hate the word RE.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    Sal SantamauraPC7060
  • Hot_water_fan
    Hot_water_fan Member Posts: 521
    What we are asking of the grid is something it was not designed to handle when it was engineered decades ago.
    I don’t think it matters? The grid was hardly designed to begin with and has incrementally grown from the start. My house started with 0 amps and now it’s at 100. Surely they never anticipated AC, refrigeration or electric clothes dryers but the grid has survived. 
    ethicalpaul
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 16,288
    What we are asking of the grid is something it was not designed to handle when it was engineered decades ago.
    I don’t think it matters? The grid was hardly designed to begin with and has incrementally grown from the start. My house started with 0 amps and now it’s at 100. Surely they never anticipated AC, refrigeration or electric clothes dryers but the grid has survived. 
    Computers, server farms and bit coining mining operations. Pot growing is also electricity intensive. Somehow, someway those loads get handled?
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream