for those of you who think going all electric will be Just Fine...

hot_rod

Interesting that the French have 15 of their 50 odd nuke reactors down. Discovering stress corrosion in many of the systems.

It's always something, get by the cost, public acceptance, waste management issues, and now steel failures. Or maybe the Russians built that fail mode into the steel

The Steam Whisperer

Advancement in conservation will free up energy resources that could be used anywhere. Also, advancement of conservation would allow those areas with no power to be able to develop usable power for much larger numbers of people since the energy needs per capita would be much lower. India is an interesting example, most of the country is not served by any grids, but many people have telecommunications and power for local needs through technologies that don't need grids... I believe small scale solar is quite popular. Communications and power grids may be becoming leftovers from old technology and old western ways of thinking as efficiency improves due to advancements in technology. Even here in the U.S., I suspect the only reason power grids exist outside major cities was due to the Rural Electrification Program ( which came into being when there was a hugely larger rural population) and the current massive subsidy of the power grid in less densely populated areas by those in densely populated areas where the costs of an grid are dramatically lower per capita. Moving toward more appropriate technologies for each location and needs would help everyone, rather than using the same tech everywhere no matter how cost inefficient it may be. This requires the kind of thinking that existed before grids... using resources matched to the location. The most obvious example is the types of structure people built for homes. A stick frame built home located in semi-desert area is much less appropriate than a conventional adobe type home.

Jamie Hall

'88? is it fuel injected or carbureted? If it's carbureted, and you remembered to put some anti-ethanol stabilizer in, I'll be it starts right up. My '70 Chevy does. Fuel injected... a little more iffish. But if the injectors aren't gummed up you should be fine.

ChrisJ

WMno57 said:

My 1988 Ford can be push started. My 4 year old Ryobi Li-ion batteries and all electric cars to this point are e-waste (when the batteries die).

Not with a totally dead battery it can't .
That alternator isn't self exciting at push starting speeds.

Jamie Hall

ChrisJ said:

WMno57 said:

My 1988 Ford can be push started.

My 4 year old Ryobi Li-ion batteries and all electric cars to this point are e-waste (when the batteries die).

Not with a totally dead battery it can't .
That alternator isn't self exciting at push starting speeds.

Quite true. On the other hand, before I switched my '51 Ferguson tractor to 12 volts and an alternator (so modern!) it could be started with the hand crank (mind your wrists) and a 6 volt lantern battery, and then it would run just fine. I can still do that, but you have to clip the battery directly to the coil and a ground to get enough spark.

ChrisJ

Jamie Hall said:

WMno57 said:

My 1988 Ford can be push started. My 4 year old Ryobi Li-ion batteries and all electric cars to this point are e-waste (when the batteries die).

Not with a totally dead battery it can't .
That alternator isn't self exciting at push starting speeds.

Quite true. On the other hand, before I switched my '51 Ferguson tractor to 12 volts and an alternator (so modern!) it could be started with the hand crank (mind your wrists) and a 6 volt lantern battery, and then it would run just fine. I can still do that, but you have to clip the battery directly to the coil and a ground to get enough spark.

To be fair neither will a model A but a model T with magnetos will.

hot_rod

The Steam Whisperer said:

Advancement in conservation will free up energy resources that could be used anywhere. Also, advancement of conservation would allow those areas with no power to be able to develop usable power for much larger numbers of people since the energy needs per capita would be much lower. India is an interesting example, most of the country is not served by any grids, but many people have telecommunications and power for local needs through technologies that don't need grids... I believe small scale solar is quite popular. Communications and power grids may be becoming leftovers from old technology and old western ways of thinking as efficiency improves due to advancements in technology. Even here in the U.S., I suspect the only reason power grids exist outside major cities was due to the Rural Electrification Program ( which came into being when there was a hugely larger rural population) and the current massive subsidy of the power grid in less densely populated areas by those in densely populated areas where the costs of an grid are dramatically lower per capita. Moving toward more appropriate technologies for each location and needs would help everyone, rather than using the same tech everywhere no matter how cost inefficient it may be. This requires the kind of thinking that existed before grids... using resources matched to the location. The most obvious example is the types of structure people built for homes. A stick frame built home located in semi-desert area is much less appropriate than a conventional adobe type home.

We do have pumps that need power to keep NY, Miami, New Orleans above water, probably many other costal cities in the future. And we are pump people! So keep some juice flowing

Small, scattered nuclear plants seem to make the most sense, about the size of nuclear sub power plants. Put the generation close to the loads, quicker to build and bring online.
I'm a RE guy all day, but winter sun in some countries isn't happening. Seems wind is availability is dropping with climate change according to the Scandinavian countries, leaders in wind generation.

I agree on the conservation point.

I see a handful of empty cars and trucks idling in parking lots to keep the AC running, everytime I go out! At the grocery store, box store, gas stations, supply house, you name it. I wonder at what cost per gallon those folks deal with a warm car in summer? Same in the winter.
How many gallons do those remote starts cost the fuel supply.

The Steam Whisperer

I would suspect that if the costs of maintaining coastal cities is borne by the inhabitants, and not spread out through everyone else, that the cost of maintaining these cities will gradually cause people and companies to leave for less expensive locations. New York City may gradually move inland if the current location outlives its usefulness and Manhatten is under water. We built those cities once without most of the technology with have today, we could do it again if it is appropriate... hopefully much better than before.

WMno57

Jamie Hall said:

'88? is it fuel injected or carbureted?

Injected. Mechanical fuel injection.

JUGHNE

IIUC, the REA was a WPA project started by FDR in the 30's......Jamie question BTY.

That power grid reached central Nebr. in the 50's. At that time there were 32 VDC Winchargers in use and a few 120 volt Jacobs for the better off farmers/ranchers.

I was told it was a tough sell to reluctant farmers that they would hook them up for a few dollars and then charge them a few more dollars a month for power.

Of course they all got connected to that grid eventually.

I have donated a 32 VDC Wincharger for our museum (waiting to be mounted on a short tower in a machine shed...another to do project), we have a 32VDC toaster and iron on hand.
Many appliances were available other than light bulbs. IIRC, there was even 32 VDC milking equipment.

I have often pondered where the small farm wind generation technology would be today without that government subsidy of the REA?

Would it have advanced and flourished had the REA not knocked it out of business??

Would it had been feasible for each homestead to be independent for power?

The small towns out here each had their own diesel plants, some even with small hydro.
The Consumer's Public Power District was formed and ran down each major highway to feed towns and also eventually the REA subs.

We did hang on to our diesel plant and it has been a great advantage as we are paid to be a peaker generation plant and also have our own stand-by that is on line within 30 minutes or so.

Yea, just another dirty diesel burner.....but better than your ice cream melting.

WMno57

ChrisJ said:

That alternator isn't self exciting at push starting speeds.

No problem. EMP not an issue either.

ChrisJ

WMno57 said:

That alternator isn't self exciting at push starting speeds.

No problem. EMP not an issue either.

Diesel guys....

Jamie Hall

Yes, the REA was part of the whole WPA thing, along with the TVA. And I remember those 32 volt Winchargers. I'm glad you still have the diesel -- I imagine there are times when it comes in downright handy.

There's a lot to be said for those small towns and the farmsteads.

JUGHNE

We have on "loan" from the state forestry service a 1960's diesel truck we use for a fire dept tanker.
All wheel drive, these are military surplus vehicles available for fire dept etc.
Hard to get stuck but if you do, you need serious help.

After starting you can shut off every electrical switch in the cab and the engine is still running.
The only way to shut the engine down is to pull out a lever that controls the "fuel rack".

You want to leave the lever pulled out until you are ready to go.

The manager at the Forestry shop made that point when he told about one of these sitting in their shop and they accidently "nudged" with some sort of loader.
The truck, sitting in gear, started and proceed thru a closed over head door and did not stop until it ran into some concrete building a distance away.

When ready to go.....keep the clutch in....a touch of the electric starter has it running.....switches on or not.

So safe from EMP or EMI, just roll it out the door and down the drive way....but then what do you do?
The small 2 cylinder gas powered pump could put out small fires, if it starts.

The Steam Whisperer

Continued use of fossil fuels in rural areas really makes sense, especially as a back up to renewables. Of course grain dryers and the like are the big challenges. Out where I was, they tended to be located on the natural gas pipelines running from town to town. Made a lot of sense. Agriculture is a tiny blip in the U.S. energy usage, so as a energy pollution source, its not that important. I suppose converting the diesels to run on alcohol, made from locally grown stock and locally processed, could be a good alternative.

WMno57

The Steam Whisperer said:

I suppose converting the diesels to run on alcohol,

What changes to a Diesel engine would this conversion require?

SlamDunk

The Steam Whisperer said:

Continued use of fossil fuels in rural areas really makes sense, especially as a back up to renewables. Of course grain dryers and the like are the big challenges. Out where I was, they tended to be located on the natural gas pipelines running from town to town. Made a lot of sense. Agriculture is a tiny blip in the U.S. energy usage, so as a energy pollution source, its not that important. I suppose converting the diesels to run on alcohol, made from locally grown stock and locally processed, could be a good alternative.

I worked on grain driers and they were predominantly natural gas followed by oil. They were major fuel hogs but when you weighed fuel consumption against bushels of dried grain, farmers made profits.

JUGHNE

Our power plant had 2 diesel generators that were "dual fuel".
Both were Fairbanks Morse, one was a straight line 6 cylinder 32E and the other a 6 cylinder opposed piston design.
They used NG to enrich the air pulled into the cylinders and then needed less diesel fuel to fire the combustion process.

But less power available, less KW generated.
The system was complex as it had "pilot" injectors for the NG ignition and troublesome.
They usually just run it on straight diesel.

The dual fuel system was an attraction for the NG company when they came to town in the late 60's.
At that time the power plant was on interruptible supply and a phone call would force you to shut down the NG to these engines.

The Steam Whisperer

WMno57 said:

The Steam Whisperer said:

I suppose converting the diesels to run on alcohol,

What changes to a Diesel engine would this conversion require?

IIRC the compression ratios for running on straight alcohol and diesel are around the same. I'd have to do a deep dive into the tech to see what needs to be done, but the concept has been around for a long time. The farmers would grow high cellulose crops, like willow trees that send up new shoots after each cutting, IIRC, to get high yield for alcohol production.

jumper

At remote no grid locations choice was between hog fuel & other locally sourced biomass for steam plant or diesel that requires difficult transport and storage plus much more maintenance. Somehow the latter prevailed.

Jamie Hall

I suspect the diesel generator sets prevailed for two very simple reasons: you could buy them off the shelf, as it were, and while they do need maintenance, they don't need the attention that a steam boiler would, even with liquid fuel, never mind solid fuel.

Solid_Fuel_Man

There are still several Fairbanks Morse WWII ship engine powered generators around here on standby. All 2 stroke inline 6 I believe. 

Jamie Hall

I baby sat a trio of surplus Navy diesel gensets one summer -- Cummins engines, as I recall, but I don't recall the model -- which powered an off the grid summer hotel many many moons ago. Learned a lot... They're still there, and run now and then, but nowadays most of the hotel power is from a really big solar cell array.

jumper

Solid_Fuel_Man said:

There are still several Fairbanks Morse WWII ship engine powered generators around here on standby. All 2 stroke inline 6 I believe. 

When US Navy trashed their WWII baby aircraft carriers nobody salvaged the Skinner five cylinder unaflows. Or the boilers. That's what I heard.

Sal Santamaura

I've long felt that the major transition to clean energy will happen when those wealthy fossil fuel interests figure out that there's money to be made providing renewables. This article from today seems like it reinforces my thinking:
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/power-line-could-save-california-160031068.html

It won't be as fast as one might ideally like, but it's happening.

HomerJSmith

I never knew is my1988 Ford could be push started. I couldn't get my wife to do it.

Jamie Hall

I see in the news that several "environmental" (read: litigation) groups are suing the EPA to require phase out of all fuel burning heating equipment by 2030. Not just for new construction, but all. Going to be interesting... just sayin'

ChrisJ

Jamie Hall said:

I see in the news that several "environmental" (read: litigation) groups are suing the EPA to require phase out of all fuel burning heating equipment by 2030. Not just for new construction, but all. Going to be interesting... just sayin'

People can sue for whatever they want, it doesn't mean they will win.

Similar, NJ had a "no soft egg yoke" law for a short time when I was a kid. That didn't work either, most restaurants etc simply didn't listen.

Solid_Fuel_Man

ChrisJ said:

People can sue for whatever they want, it doesn't mean they will win. Similar, NJ had a "no soft egg yoke" law for a short time when I was a kid. That didn't work either, most restaurants etc simply didn't listen.

My wife loves what I call "snotty eggs". 

Jamie Hall

MikeAmann said:

Jamie Hall said:

I see in the news that several "environmental" (read: litigation) groups are suing the EPA to require phase out of all fuel burning heating equipment by 2030. Not just for new construction, but all. Going to be interesting... just sayin'

And BIG OIL is just going to lay down and let this happen??? They OWN the politicians, so it is not going to happen.

That's not the point. The point is, what are you doing to prepare for this sort of thing? What are you doing to figure out how to help your customers? Maybe it won't happen -- though events in Europe suggest otherwise -- but if it does, what's your plan B?

JakeCK

I have a feeling after this winter we're all going to be looking at fossil fuels a bit differently. I hope I'm wrong because I really don't want to have to cough up $600+/mo for gas bills to heat my house but not much I can do about if the cost of a unit of NG doubles.

In other news my new low e triple track storm windows get installed today and I'm about half way through insulating my foundation to R13 with polyiso.