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for those of you who think going all electric will be Just Fine...

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  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 13,071
    edited June 26
    WMno57 said:
    In for the 200th post on this thread. I got nothing constructive to add. Maybe later I will start my 1988 Ford. Seat belts for six and no electronics. It has been parked in my corn crib without starting for at least six months. The crib has no electric service. How do those electric cars and expensive batteries do after sitting with no power for six months?
    Maybe I should go out and start the 31 model A using the crank.  How do those lead acid batteries do after sitting for 5 years?  The A will still start so I guess it's better.....


    I'm sorry but that was an odd argument on your part.

    I don't think it really applies to the vast majority of vehicles being used for daily life and it's really not going to help sculpt the future.


    Most modern cars will kill the battery sitting for 6 months.  They aren't really intended to go more than a week or two.

    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    kflory
  • WMno57
    WMno57 Member Posts: 311
    My 1988 Ford can be push started.

    My 4 year old Ryobi Li-ion batteries and all electric cars to this point are e-waste (when the batteries die).
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 16,554
    jumper said:

    If anybody is looking for a good read the grid by Gretchen Bakke is an interesting book on the state of our decrepit electrical grid. 

    Interesting that it takes a Professor of Anthropology to inform us. Newspapers regularly tell us the price of oil & NG & wholesale electricity. But nowadays we pay much more to get it delivered. Half the cost of gas & electricity we get is for delivery. Which is less expensive on an energy basis?

    President Biden asks big oil companies to reduce price of gasoline but he doesn't explain how. A few years ago oil price went below zero but my gasoline station didn't offer me any money to take away some of its gasoline.

    If the cost of a barrel of oils is dropping, seems odd pump prices don't? They used to move with crude prices for the most part.
    I think greed explains some of the high pump prices. Once the oil execs see that consumers will pay the price, consumption not dropping, what motivates them to drop prices? Same for the Saudis.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    kflory
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 16,554
    Interesting that the French have 15 of their 50 odd nuke reactors down. Discovering stress corrosion in many of the systems.

    It's always something, get by the cost, public acceptance, waste management issues, and now steel failures. Or maybe the Russians built that fail mode into the steel :)
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • The Steam Whisperer
    The Steam Whisperer Member Posts: 986
    Advancement in conservation will free up energy resources that could be used anywhere. Also, advancement of conservation would allow those areas with no power to be able to develop usable power for much larger numbers of people since the energy needs per capita would be much lower. India is an interesting example, most of the country is not served by any grids, but many people have telecommunications and power for local needs through technologies that don't need grids... I believe small scale solar is quite popular. Communications and power grids may be becoming leftovers from old technology and old western ways of thinking as efficiency improves due to advancements in technology. Even here in the U.S., I suspect the only reason power grids exist outside major cities was due to the Rural Electrification Program ( which came into being when there was a hugely larger rural population) and the current massive subsidy of the power grid in less densely populated areas by those in densely populated areas where the costs of an grid are dramatically lower per capita. Moving toward more appropriate technologies for each location and needs would help everyone, rather than using the same tech everywhere no matter how cost inefficient it may be. This requires the kind of thinking that existed before grids... using resources matched to the location. The most obvious example is the types of structure people built for homes. A stick frame built home located in semi-desert area is much less appropriate than a conventional adobe type home.
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    Larry Weingarten
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 19,150
    '88? is it fuel injected or carbureted? If it's carbureted, and you remembered to put some anti-ethanol stabilizer in, I'll be it starts right up. My '70 Chevy does. Fuel injected... a little more iffish. But if the injectors aren't gummed up you should be fine.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 13,071
    WMno57 said:
    My 1988 Ford can be push started. My 4 year old Ryobi Li-ion batteries and all electric cars to this point are e-waste (when the batteries die).
    Not with a totally dead battery it can't .
    That alternator isn't self exciting at push starting speeds.

    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 19,150
    edited June 27
    ChrisJ said:


    WMno57 said:

    My 1988 Ford can be push started.

    My 4 year old Ryobi Li-ion batteries and all electric cars to this point are e-waste (when the batteries die).


    Not with a totally dead battery it can't .
    That alternator isn't self exciting at push starting speeds.

    Quite true. On the other hand, before I switched my '51 Ferguson tractor to 12 volts and an alternator (so modern!) it could be started with the hand crank (mind your wrists) and a 6 volt lantern battery, and then it would run just fine. I can still do that, but you have to clip the battery directly to the coil and a ground to get enough spark.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 13,071
    edited June 26
    WMno57 said:
    My 1988 Ford can be push started. My 4 year old Ryobi Li-ion batteries and all electric cars to this point are e-waste (when the batteries die).
    Not with a totally dead battery it can't .
    That alternator isn't self exciting at push starting speeds.

    Quite true. On the other hand, before I switched my '51 Ferguson tractor to 12 volts and an alternator (so modern!) it could be started with the hand crank (mind your wrists) and a 6 volt lantern battery, and then it would run just fine. I can still do that, but you have to clip the battery directly to the coil and a ground to get enough spark.
    To be fair neither will a model A but a model T with magnetos will.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 16,554

    Advancement in conservation will free up energy resources that could be used anywhere. Also, advancement of conservation would allow those areas with no power to be able to develop usable power for much larger numbers of people since the energy needs per capita would be much lower. India is an interesting example, most of the country is not served by any grids, but many people have telecommunications and power for local needs through technologies that don't need grids... I believe small scale solar is quite popular. Communications and power grids may be becoming leftovers from old technology and old western ways of thinking as efficiency improves due to advancements in technology. Even here in the U.S., I suspect the only reason power grids exist outside major cities was due to the Rural Electrification Program ( which came into being when there was a hugely larger rural population) and the current massive subsidy of the power grid in less densely populated areas by those in densely populated areas where the costs of an grid are dramatically lower per capita. Moving toward more appropriate technologies for each location and needs would help everyone, rather than using the same tech everywhere no matter how cost inefficient it may be. This requires the kind of thinking that existed before grids... using resources matched to the location. The most obvious example is the types of structure people built for homes. A stick frame built home located in semi-desert area is much less appropriate than a conventional adobe type home.

    We do have pumps that need power to keep NY, Miami, New Orleans above water, probably many other costal cities in the future. And we are pump people! So keep some juice flowing :)

    Small, scattered nuclear plants seem to make the most sense, about the size of nuclear sub power plants. Put the generation close to the loads, quicker to build and bring online.
    I'm a RE guy all day, but winter sun in some countries isn't happening. Seems wind is availability is dropping with climate change according to the Scandinavian countries, leaders in wind generation.

    I agree on the conservation point.

    I see a handful of empty cars and trucks idling in parking lots to keep the AC running, everytime I go out! At the grocery store, box store, gas stations, supply house, you name it. I wonder at what cost per gallon those folks deal with a warm car in summer? Same in the winter.
    How many gallons do those remote starts cost the fuel supply.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • The Steam Whisperer
    The Steam Whisperer Member Posts: 986
    I would suspect that if the costs of maintaining coastal cities is borne by the inhabitants, and not spread out through everyone else, that the cost of maintaining these cities will gradually cause people and companies to leave for less expensive locations. New York City may gradually move inland if the current location outlives its usefulness and Manhatten is under water. We built those cities once without most of the technology with have today, we could do it again if it is appropriate... hopefully much better than before.
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  • WMno57
    WMno57 Member Posts: 311

    '88? is it fuel injected or carbureted?

    Injected. Mechanical fuel injection.

  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 9,822
    IIUC, the REA was a WPA project started by FDR in the 30's......Jamie question BTY.

    That power grid reached central Nebr. in the 50's. At that time there were 32 VDC Winchargers in use and a few 120 volt Jacobs for the better off farmers/ranchers.

    I was told it was a tough sell to reluctant farmers that they would hook them up for a few dollars and then charge them a few more dollars a month for power.

    Of course they all got connected to that grid eventually.

    I have donated a 32 VDC Wincharger for our museum (waiting to be mounted on a short tower in a machine shed...another to do project), we have a 32VDC toaster and iron on hand.
    Many appliances were available other than light bulbs. IIRC, there was even 32 VDC milking equipment.

    I have often pondered where the small farm wind generation technology would be today without that government subsidy of the REA?

    Would it have advanced and flourished had the REA not knocked it out of business??

    Would it had been feasible for each homestead to be independent for power?

    The small towns out here each had their own diesel plants, some even with small hydro.
    The Consumer's Public Power District was formed and ran down each major highway to feed towns and also eventually the REA subs.

    We did hang on to our diesel plant and it has been a great advantage as we are paid to be a peaker generation plant and also have our own stand-by that is on line within 30 minutes or so.

    Yea, just another dirty diesel burner.....but better than your ice cream melting. ;)


    PC7060
  • WMno57
    WMno57 Member Posts: 311
    edited June 26
    ChrisJ said:

    That alternator isn't self exciting at push starting speeds.

    No problem. EMP not an issue either.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 13,071
    WMno57 said:
    That alternator isn't self exciting at push starting speeds.
    No problem. EMP not an issue either.
    Diesel guys....


    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 19,150
    Yes, the REA was part of the whole WPA thing, along with the TVA. And I remember those 32 volt Winchargers. I'm glad you still have the diesel -- I imagine there are times when it comes in downright handy.

    There's a lot to be said for those small towns and the farmsteads.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 9,822
    We have on "loan" from the state forestry service a 1960's diesel truck we use for a fire dept tanker.
    All wheel drive, these are military surplus vehicles available for fire dept etc.
    Hard to get stuck but if you do, you need serious help.

    After starting you can shut off every electrical switch in the cab and the engine is still running.
    The only way to shut the engine down is to pull out a lever that controls the "fuel rack".

    You want to leave the lever pulled out until you are ready to go.

    The manager at the Forestry shop made that point when he told about one of these sitting in their shop and they accidently "nudged" with some sort of loader.
    The truck, sitting in gear, started and proceed thru a closed over head door and did not stop until it ran into some concrete building a distance away.

    When ready to go.....keep the clutch in....a touch of the electric starter has it running.....switches on or not.

    So safe from EMP or EMI, just roll it out the door and down the drive way....but then what do you do?
    The small 2 cylinder gas powered pump could put out small fires, if it starts.
  • The Steam Whisperer
    The Steam Whisperer Member Posts: 986
    Continued use of fossil fuels in rural areas really makes sense, especially as a back up to renewables. Of course grain dryers and the like are the big challenges. Out where I was, they tended to be located on the natural gas pipelines running from town to town. Made a lot of sense. Agriculture is a tiny blip in the U.S. energy usage, so as a energy pollution source, its not that important. I suppose converting the diesels to run on alcohol, made from locally grown stock and locally processed, could be a good alternative.
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  • WMno57
    WMno57 Member Posts: 311

    I suppose converting the diesels to run on alcohol,

    What changes to a Diesel engine would this conversion require?
  • SlamDunk
    SlamDunk Member Posts: 1,334

    Continued use of fossil fuels in rural areas really makes sense, especially as a back up to renewables. Of course grain dryers and the like are the big challenges. Out where I was, they tended to be located on the natural gas pipelines running from town to town. Made a lot of sense. Agriculture is a tiny blip in the U.S. energy usage, so as a energy pollution source, its not that important. I suppose converting the diesels to run on alcohol, made from locally grown stock and locally processed, could be a good alternative.

    I worked on grain driers and they were predominantly natural gas followed by oil. They were major fuel hogs but when you weighed fuel consumption against bushels of dried grain, farmers made profits.
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 9,822
    Our power plant had 2 diesel generators that were "dual fuel".
    Both were Fairbanks Morse, one was a straight line 6 cylinder 32E and the other a 6 cylinder opposed piston design.
    They used NG to enrich the air pulled into the cylinders and then needed less diesel fuel to fire the combustion process.

    But less power available, less KW generated.
    The system was complex as it had "pilot" injectors for the NG ignition and troublesome.
    They usually just run it on straight diesel.

    The dual fuel system was an attraction for the NG company when they came to town in the late 60's.
    At that time the power plant was on interruptible supply and a phone call would force you to shut down the NG to these engines.
  • The Steam Whisperer
    The Steam Whisperer Member Posts: 986
    WMno57 said:

    I suppose converting the diesels to run on alcohol,

    What changes to a Diesel engine would this conversion require?
    IIRC the compression ratios for running on straight alcohol and diesel are around the same. I'd have to do a deep dive into the tech to see what needs to be done, but the concept has been around for a long time. The farmers would grow high cellulose crops, like willow trees that send up new shoots after each cutting, IIRC, to get high yield for alcohol production.
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  • jumper
    jumper Member Posts: 1,866
    At remote no grid locations choice was between hog fuel & other locally sourced biomass for steam plant or diesel that requires difficult transport and storage plus much more maintenance. Somehow the latter prevailed.
    PC7060
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 19,150
    I suspect the diesel generator sets prevailed for two very simple reasons: you could buy them off the shelf, as it were, and while they do need maintenance, they don't need the attention that a steam boiler would, even with liquid fuel, never mind solid fuel.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • Solid_Fuel_Man
    Solid_Fuel_Man Member Posts: 2,500
    There are still several Fairbanks Morse WWII ship engine powered generators around here on standby. All 2 stroke inline 6 I believe. 
    Serving Northern Maine HVAC & Controls. I burn wood, it smells good!
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 19,150
    edited June 29
    I baby sat a trio of surplus Navy diesel gensets one summer -- Cummins engines, as I recall, but I don't recall the model -- which powered an off the grid summer hotel many many moons ago. Learned a lot... They're still there, and run now and then, but nowadays most of the hotel power is from a really big solar cell array.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    GGrossSolid_Fuel_ManPC7060
  • jumper
    jumper Member Posts: 1,866

    There are still several Fairbanks Morse WWII ship engine powered generators around here on standby. All 2 stroke inline 6 I believe. 

    When US Navy trashed their WWII baby aircraft carriers nobody salvaged the Skinner five cylinder unaflows. Or the boilers. That's what I heard.