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for those of you who think going all electric will be Just Fine...

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Comments

  • Hot_water_fan
    Hot_water_fan Member Posts: 521
    Computers, server farms and bit coining mining operations. Pot growing is also electricity intensive. Somehow, someway those loads get handled? 
    @Hotrod I feel like my heat pump is the gentlest part of my electricity consumption! Now the utility just has to pass the savings along
    ethicalpaul
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 16,288
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • HomerJSmith
    HomerJSmith Member Posts: 1,562
    edited June 19
    Government is anti-progress with all its rules and regulations. The only progress government succeed at is expanding its own powers and rewarding its crony friends.

    I should have added War. Governments are really good a War. Really GOOD.

    hot_rod, I did expect a big blowback on my delusional ramblings. Thank you for being so kind.

    We are electrical beings living in an electrical universe. A well placed EMP would put a real dent in your day. Since we didn't harden our electric grid, I don't expect we will harden our Teslas. "See the USA in a Chevrolet", Motoring may just turn into a nostalgic memory of the 'good ole days". We will see Teslas, on the front lawn, up on concrete blocks in Rio Linda.
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 16,288
    edited June 19

    Government is anti-progress with all its rules and regulations. The only progress government succeed at is expanding its own powers and rewarding its crony friends.

    I should have added War. Governments are really good a War. Really GOOD.

    hot_rod, I did expect a big blowback on my delusional ramblings. Thank you for being so kind.

    Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Good to form your own based on research. Many folks these days just "parrot" the talking heads feeds.



    We are electrical beings living in an electrical universe. A well placed EMP would put a real dent in your day. Since we didn't harden our electric grid, I don't expect we will harden our Teslas. "See the USA in a Chevrolet", Motoring may just turn into a nostalgic memory of the 'good ole days". We will see Teslas, on the front lawn, up on concrete blocks in Rio Linda.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    Larry WeingartenSolid_Fuel_Man
  • Sal Santamaura
    Sal Santamaura Member Posts: 381

    ...A well placed EMP would put a real dent in your day. Since we didn't harden our electric grid, I don't expect we will harden our Teslas. "See the USA in a Chevrolet", Motoring may just turn into a nostalgic memory of the 'good ole days". We will see Teslas, on the front lawn, up on concrete blocks...
    An EMP would render all modern internal combustion engine-powered vehicles, including Chevrolets, totally useless. With the extent of electronics incorporated in them, they're no less susceptible than are EVs.
    ZmanChrisJSolid_Fuel_Manethicalpaul
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 16,288
    Probably the biggest threat to grids and utilities is cyberattacks
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    SlamDunkPC7060
  • SlamDunk
    SlamDunk Member Posts: 1,283
    edited June 19
    EMP? Maybe we should have stuck with vacuum tubes. Maybe the grid survives because new tech consume less power.
  • PC7060
    PC7060 Member Posts: 709
    edited June 20
    hot_rod said:
    Probably the biggest threat to grids and utilities is cyberattacks
    @hot_rod - I agree, they (and everyone else) need to start taking cybersecurity seriously. While we are not in the utility sector, our small technology firm’s single biggest overhead cost (including facilities) is cyber security. It isn’t cheap to maintain compliance to NIST Cyber Security standard but getting hacked would be much much worse.

    I can’t imagine what it takes to keep up with all of software and hardware updates at a large utility company given many of the systems came online well before cyber risks were a consideration. 
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 12,832
    edited June 20
    ...A well placed EMP would put a real dent in your day. Since we didn't harden our electric grid, I don't expect we will harden our Teslas. "See the USA in a Chevrolet", Motoring may just turn into a nostalgic memory of the 'good ole days". We will see Teslas, on the front lawn, up on concrete blocks...
    An EMP would render all modern internal combustion engine-powered vehicles, including Chevrolets, totally useless. With the extent of electronics incorporated in them, they're no less susceptible than are EVs.

    I'm thinking an EMP would even take out 1975 and up GM's including Chevrolets.
    I'm not sure how an HEI setup would tolerate such a thing.

    It would certainly do bad damage to anything 1980s and newer.


    The EMP argument vs EV's is a first on me.
    But a common one is how EV's catch on fire a lot.

    We all know we've never seen a gasoline or diesel vehicle catch on fire..........Diesels never run away or anything either.  They're perfect.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • JakeCK
    JakeCK Member Posts: 688
    The EMP vs car argument is a non starter. If we got hit with an EMP that was large enough for that to be of concern getting your car or truck to start will be the least of your concerns.

    Also cars are far less susceptible than most people think. A government study back in the mid 2000's found that most vehicles were unaffected by anything short of what you would expect from a massive solar flare or a nuke being detonated right on top of you. And even then most of them only needed to be power cycled. I think a few did have a few computer module failures including an instrument cluster but continued to run just fine. 
    ethicalpaul
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 12,832
    JakeCK said:

    The EMP vs car argument is a non starter. If we got hit with an EMP that was large enough for that to be of concern getting your car or truck to start will be the least of your concerns.

    Also cars are far less susceptible than most people think. A government study back in the mid 2000's found that most vehicles were unaffected by anything short of what you would expect from a massive solar flare or a nuke being detonated right on top of you. And even then most of them only needed to be power cycled. I think a few did have a few computer module failures including an instrument cluster but continued to run just fine. 

    Before someone says it you need electric to run gas and diesel pumps at fuel station as well.
    So if you're not able to charge an EV you're not able to fill up a car or truck either.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    JakeCKSlamDunk
  • HomerJSmith
    HomerJSmith Member Posts: 1,562
    edited June 20
    jakeCK, au contraire. Read about the solar flare that occurred in the 1850's that set telegraph wires on fire and electrified railroad tracks. There's been a lot of above ground nuclear test to determine the effects of EMP. What the real effects will be is yet to be seen, I guess.

    EROI is the rule. Energy Returned On Energy Invested or (ERoEI).
    Zman
  • JakeCK
    JakeCK Member Posts: 688
    edited June 20
    jakeCK, au contraire. Read about the solar flare that occurred in the 1850's that set telegraph wires on fire and electrified railroad tracks. There's been a lot of above ground nuclear test to determine the effects of EMP. What the real effects will be is yet to be seen, I guess. EROI is the rule. Energy Returned On Energy Invested or (ERoEI).
    There is a difference between unshielded wires and bare metal extending hundreds to thousands of miles and a car built to with stand the rigors of thousands of miles with all of its electronics shielded inside the metal body of the car, which does act as a faraday cage of sorts. 
  • JakeCK
    JakeCK Member Posts: 688
    edited June 20
    And I'm familiar with the Carrington event.

    Read up on the EMP commission. 

    I'm not claiming EMP isn't a threat. It most certainly is. It could set the western world back hundreds of years in the blink of an eye. I'm just arguing your car starting is not a concern. There is a high likelihood it will start no problem but it is a mute point. Not only will you be unable to refuel it, as has already been pointed out, but it will be the very last concern you have.

    No grocery stores, no refrigeration, no heat, no ac, no radio, TV, internet, cell phones, worse yet once the water towers run dry you won't even have running water. No drinking water, no showers, won't even be able to flush the toilet. Sure you could collect rain water to flush them but how long until the sewers are backed up because the pumping stations aren't working? The black plague spread so easily because of poor sanitation, imagine when billions of people start $***ing in a bucket. 

    The list goes on.

  • Hot_water_fan
    Hot_water_fan Member Posts: 521
    EROI is the rule. Energy Returned On Energy Invested or (ERoEI).
    I don’t think EROI has much value at all. Best case, you can compare within the same energy source (ie an offshore oil field with 2x the oil will be better all else equal). But without costs included, what’s the utility? A solar panel might have lower EROI but then destroys oil on levelized cost of energy, which reality endorses because solar is widely used for electricity and oil? Hardly at all. It seems a very limited metric. 
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 12,832
    For those who are curious here's the 1859 event.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrington_Event
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • JakeCK
    JakeCK Member Posts: 688
    PC7060 said:
    man, this thread has taken a decidedly dark (but non-political) turn. I'm off to eat the last of the ice cream and steaks in the fridge as a risk reduction / mood enhancing activity. ;)
    I wouldn't really call it a dark turn. More of an acknowledgement that our modern society has been optimized and built to run on a JIT system. The better optimized a system is, the closer to the precipice it sits. Our society has been optimized to such an extent that any small perturbation can destabilize our entire society. 

    Example, this pandemic. It is almost to an endemic stage but the socioeconomic consequences are still reverberating through our society.


    PC7060
  • SlamDunk
    SlamDunk Member Posts: 1,283
    edited June 20
    We have been in this position before. Look what else we learned from the pandemic: an awful lot of us can work remotely, saving fuel, and creating an easier commute for those of us who can't which saves more fuel. Also, better pay for those on the low pay end of the spectrum. A lot of people got better jobs. Socio economic consequences are localized in communities with lousy economies.

    I agree with the JIT philosophy. No fat or excess anywhere.
  • jumper
    jumper Member Posts: 1,833
    >>Before someone says it you need electric to run gas and diesel pumps at fuel station as well.
    So if you're not able to charge an EV you're not able to fill up a car or truck either.<<

    I can power the gas pump with my Honda generator but you'll look awful funny running IC engine to charge your EV.
  • JakeCK
    JakeCK Member Posts: 688
    SlamDunk said:
    We have been in this position before. Look what else we learned from the pandemic: an awful lot of us can work remotely, saving fuel, and creating an easier commute for those of us who can't which saves more fuel. Also, better pay for those on the low pay end of the spectrum. A lot of people got better jobs. Socio economic consequences are localized in communities with lousy economies. I agree with the JIT philosophy. No fat or excess anywhere.
    A JIT system is fine, in the right situation. But like anything the right tool for the right job. When a new idea becomes accepted in a field of study everyone seems to get all turned on to it and tries ro show horn it in everywhere. My employer use a jit system for deliveries with in the company. Works great for the most part, could work even better ran on a tighter schedule. But we still have our centralized warehouse across town. Worst case scenario we miss our daily delivery or it comes late because of congestion, weather, or break down. But that is the worst case and normally we can get something here with in hours. But running a global economy on jit where goods can take weeks to move across the globe? Nah bad idea.
  • PC7060
    PC7060 Member Posts: 709
    edited June 21
    I’m a fan of JIT but like everything else you need to adjust for prevailing conditions. We’ve had recent situation for subassemblies built buy a supplier that had specific parts driving the lead time out to 60+ weeks.

    We worked to find alternative sources for the part holding up delivery only to find other material now have even longer lead time because our supplier hadn’t ordered the remaining items on the bill of materials due to their internal JIT based model.

    We now put in our contracts that all materials will be ordered on day one of contract award. No just in time production phasing.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 12,832
    jumper said:
    >>Before someone says it you need electric to run gas and diesel pumps at fuel station as well. So if you're not able to charge an EV you're not able to fill up a car or truck either.<< I can power the gas pump with my Honda generator but you'll look awful funny running IC engine to charge your EV.
    I can charge an EV with my natural gas powered generator and I won't look funny at all as it's hooked to my house.


    Before someone says "but what if" it can also run on LPG.

    Now just in case we go full blown disaster I'm not prepared for zombies.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Solid_Fuel_Man
    Solid_Fuel_Man Member Posts: 2,449
    If fuel weren't $5+ a gallon how seriously would we be having this conversation?
    Serving Northern Maine HVAC & Controls. I burn wood, it smells good!
  • JakeCK
    JakeCK Member Posts: 688
    Well the op started this to vent about his power getting shut off in a rolling black out caused by the heat so I'd say pretty good odds it would have happened in some form regardless.
    GGross
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 3,739
    jumper said:

    QuebecHydro convinced homeowners to trash oil burners. Then one winter night a freak ice storm downed miles of transmission towers delivering electricity to Montreal.

    Because oil burners don't need electricity?
    1 pipe Peerless 63-03L in Cedar Grove, NJ, coal > oil > NG
    ChrisJ
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 12,832

    jumper said:

    QuebecHydro convinced homeowners to trash oil burners. Then one winter night a freak ice storm downed miles of transmission towers delivering electricity to Montreal.

    Because oil burners don't need electricity?
    I guess someone could argue an oil burner can easily run on a small portable generator but I'm betting most of the people in the area do not have that option either.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    ethicalpaul
  • jumper
    jumper Member Posts: 1,833
    ChrisJ said:

    jumper said:

    QuebecHydro convinced homeowners to trash oil burners. Then one winter night a freak ice storm downed miles of transmission towers delivering electricity to Montreal.

    Because oil burners don't need electricity?
    I guess someone could argue an oil burner can easily run on a small portable generator but I'm betting most of the people in the area do not have that option either.
    Question of time. Import heating fuel & generators. Or rebuild dozens of towers and stretch wires.
    Montreal is often very cold. What would it hurt to leave furnaces functioning? Well homeowners may decide to avoid provincial monopoly. A couple of too little snow in north-east North America and Quebeckers will depend on nukes in Michigan.
  • Skyline
    Skyline Member Posts: 133
    It's unlikely that local electricity grids can go all renewable electricity generation on their own. Texas is a good example of that with their deep freeze couple of years ego. For that matter, it is unlikely that even a country like US will be able to do that on its own. In my view global energy grid seems like a better option and there are plans and some constructions are already ongoing to do just that.

    https://www.newsmax.com/paulfdelespinasse/electric-grid-solar/2022/05/03/id/1068282/

    This will take time, but ultimately that's what should be developed for renewable energy sources...



  • Hot_water_fan
    Hot_water_fan Member Posts: 521
    Texas is a good example of that with their deep freeze couple of years ego.


    @Skyline ERCOT's problem wasn't renewable energy. Among other reasons, natural gas really crapped out.
    JakeCKethicalpaul
  • JakeCK
    JakeCK Member Posts: 688
    Texas is a good example of that with their deep freeze couple of years ego.
    @Skyline ERCOT's problem wasn't renewable energy. Among other reasons, natural gas really crapped out.
    It amazes me how many people believe that load of BS. The renewables actually continued to function just fine for the most part. I did hear there were some wind turbines that froze up but really that's the beauty of these systems. Ok a single turbine shuts down out of a field of a hundred... Not a big deal. Like wise with solar. I had a panel fail a couple months ago. It was only producing about a 1/3 of what it was rated for. I hardly noticed the drop in production across the whole system. Vs a large coal, NG or nuke. If one of those goes down you got issues. 
  • Skyline
    Skyline Member Posts: 133

    Texas is a good example of that with their deep freeze couple of years ego.


    @Skyline ERCOT's problem wasn't renewable energy. Among other reasons, natural gas really crapped out.
    That's somewhat arguable...

    At the time of installing the wind turbine, the option to protect them from freezing had not been selected/installed. During the deep freeze, they froze up and did not produce electricity. The NG supply, including the wells, do need electricity to function. While they should have backup generation for the critical NG supply, the gas companies did not opt for it either. AFAIK, most of them still had not been winterized as of yet. It's a double whammy that bound to take place again, if not addressed...
    Hot_water_fan
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 12,832
    edited June 22
    Skyline said:

    Texas is a good example of that with their deep freeze couple of years ego.


    @Skyline ERCOT's problem wasn't renewable energy. Among other reasons, natural gas really crapped out.
    That's somewhat arguable...

    At the time of installing the wind turbine, the option to protect them from freezing had not been selected/installed. During the deep freeze, they froze up and did not produce electricity. The NG supply, including the wells, do need electricity to function. While they should have backup generation for the critical NG supply, the gas companies did not opt for it either. AFAIK, most of them still had not been winterized as of yet. It's a double whammy that bound to take place again, if not addressed...
    Yeah..
    What happened in Texas was avoidable and most likely shouldn't have happened.

    I say most likely because I guess you could argue whether or not such options are worth it in the long term in that area.

    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 18,924
    There were a number of problems that beset Texas. To point the finger at this one or that one and say if only this or that is not helpful, although it is attractive. For whatever reason, the proximate cause was that portions of the grid overloaded and automatic trips on major base load power plants tripped to keep phase and frequency problems from destroying the generators.

    Now one can say that more solar would have helped. The cascade started at night; not a whole lot of solar. More wind might have helped. It was relatively calm. Batteries on a utility scale probably would have helped, but they don't exist yet.

    One minor thing to remember about most "renewables" and the associated batteries -- they must have a stable frequency source to function on a grid scale. This is an area of power electrical engineering -- a rather specialized field -- which has not found a solution other than "base load" generating capacity at least to date. As I noted above, some thought has been given to using GPS or similar satellites for this purpose, The idea is somewhat attractive, until one realises that someone with a hundred dollars in parts and a devious mind can jam the signals and there goes the ballgame.

    Another path which has been explored (and has some limited applications) is EHV (Extreme High Voltage) DC -- not AC -- interconnects. This gets around phase/frequency problems over wide areas or between different grids. Multigigawatt 460,000 volt sine wave inverters are a bit tricky to design, and are expensive. There are also some interesting problems relating to high intensity magnetic fields along the cable routes; they seem to form very effective barriers to migrating birds, for instance.

    As I have said before, as an old codger it makes me very very sad that 70 years ago we -- and the rest of the world -- didn't embrace and advance and improve the technology we had. We could have a nearly completely carbon free energy source and at least as much power as we have now. Instead some people panicked and we have a large scale group of "activists" who are making a fortune off of opposing any form of progress or advocating for pipe dreams which simply can't meet the scale required.

    Phooey.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    GGrossSolid_Fuel_Man
  • Skyline
    Skyline Member Posts: 133
    ChrisJ said:

    Skyline said:

    Texas is a good example of that with their deep freeze couple of years ego.


    @Skyline ERCOT's problem wasn't renewable energy. Among other reasons, natural gas really crapped out.
    That's somewhat arguable...

    At the time of installing the wind turbine, the option to protect them from freezing had not been selected/installed. During the deep freeze, they froze up and did not produce electricity. The NG supply, including the wells, do need electricity to function. While they should have backup generation for the critical NG supply, the gas companies did not opt for it either. AFAIK, most of them still had not been winterized as of yet. It's a double whammy that bound to take place again, if not addressed...
    Yeah..
    What happened in Texas was avoidable and most likely shouldn't have happened.

    I say most likely because I guess you could argue whether or not such options are worth it in the long term in that area.

    I don't disagree, ROI was certainly a factor at the design phase for the wind turbines. It's probably one of the reason why most of these issues had not been addressed as of yet. Who's going to pay for the retrofit?

  • JakeCK
    JakeCK Member Posts: 688
    As I have said before, as an old codger it makes me very very sad that 70 years ago we -- and the rest of the world -- didn't embrace and advance and improve the technology we had. We could have a nearly completely carbon free energy source and at least as much power as we have now. Instead some people panicked and we have a large scale group of "activists" who are making a fortune off of opposing any form of progress or advocating for pipe dreams which simply can't meet the scale required. Phooey.
    What technology could we have embraced 70 years ago?
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 18,924
    edited June 22
    JakeCK said:



    As I have said before, as an old codger it makes me very very sad that 70 years ago we -- and the rest of the world -- didn't embrace and advance and improve the technology we had. We could have a nearly completely carbon free energy source and at least as much power as we have now. Instead some people panicked and we have a large scale group of "activists" who are making a fortune off of opposing any form of progress or advocating for pipe dreams which simply can't meet the scale required.

    Phooey.

    What technology could we have embraced 70 years ago?

    Nuclear. That was when the Navy was beginning to play with reactors (they have a pretty good safety record) and not long after was when Northern States Power brought the first power reactor on line in Minnesota. Until a certain movie actress and movie came along, there were many plans to build and operate power reactors, each with better and safer and more sophisticated designs. There was also a good deal of very promising research being done on the safe management of nuclear wastes.

    That all came crashing to a halt, and now 90 plus percent of the cost of a reactor for commercial power is spent battling every pressure group and their lawyers and their baby brothers for decades, so it isn't worth it. And the list of perfectly good reactors on perfectly good sites with good safety records which have been shut down is long and lengthening.

    Consider Germany, if you don't want to face the US situation. They shut down all of their reactors a few years back. Now guess what. They are burning more and more soft coal just to keep the lights on. This is progress?
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    GGrossSlamDunkPC7060JUGHNE
  • 109A_5
    109A_5 Member Posts: 122
    edited June 22
    The way I see it is the problem with Nuclear is events like Chernobyl and how they came to be. Peter Principle, The Dunning-Kruger Effect maybe ?
    National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
    Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
    One Pipe System
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 15,331
    109A_5 said:

    The way I see it is the problem with Nuclear is events like Chernobyl and how they came to be. Peter Principle maybe ?

    Don't forget Windscale, Hanford and of course Three Mile Island.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting