Hiring Mechanics... Is there anyone out there at all these days?

JohnNY

I have 75 résumés this month from Indeed.com, which I'm told is the new Monster, or whatever, of job seekers.
Two of them are decent. Neither one is calling me back.
I've removed the "drug testing and background check" line which initially cut my response numbers by ⅔.
I don't know what else to do. No one is going into this trade anymore.

Perhaps the hush-hush buzz about our industry dying a slow death because hydronics has become too complicated may just be true after all seeing how 86% of the country seems to think we're doing it wrong.

"Plumbers’ Local 1 Service Division company now hiring, and sponsoring for Union membership, qualified plumbing and heating Mechanics and Junior Mechanics for work in Manhattan and Brooklyn. Applicants must have a minimum of 5 years experience and should be familiar with the installation, troubleshooting and repair of hot water and steam heating systems as well as typical residential and commercial plumbing systems. Clean driver’s license and references are a requirement. Excellent Union wages and family benefits including paid vacations & holidays, steady work and overtime for reliable, presentable, qualified applicants."

Bob Bona_4

It's really disturbing from what I see too, and your experience just reinforces my concern.

What is going to happen in 20 years? There's more equipment out there than ever.

I do like the awareness campaigns, MikeRoweWorks, for one..

Steamhead

I would NOT compromise on the "drug testing and background check" issue. You don't want to hire someone who will kill your company's reputation. Also, talk to your insurance agent, he or she would know if your insurance company considers hiring such people an unacceptable risk.

Robert O'Brien

And yet everyone complains about being undercut?

JohnNY

I agree, Frank. The reality, however, is I may be scaring away a decent young guy who occasionally engages in recreational pot smoking and I have to pick my battles.
I'm doing more consulting work these days but I have to get my family business secure and I need some good hands to get there.

ChrisJ

JohnNY said:

I agree, Frank. The reality, however, is I may be scaring away a decent young guy who occasionally engages in recreational pot smoking and I have to pick my battles.
I'm doing more consulting work these days but I have to get my family business secure and I need some good hands to get there.

How exactly is eliminating a backround check or drug test going to get you good hands?

Who was paying for these services, you or the person applying for the job?

FranklinD

If I was a single fella, and not rooted in this area, I would jump at that opportunity. I have never been employed as a plumber or heating technician, unfortunately. I have been a master auto mechanic and heavy equipment mechanic for 13 years, with specialties in electrical systems and electronics. Diagnostics (of any kind) is what I love more than anything. Figuring out a difficult problem that has stumped others is the best feeling in the world, personally.

I've looked around over the last two years here for some hvac training programs, basically any program to get me in the door. I love hydronic heating systems, steam, hot water, mini tube, and so on...it's the most interesting and fascinating thing around. Unfortunately, my options are limited.

Trust me, I'm not trying to 'toot my own horn'. But there HAS to be some qualified people interested in an incredible-sounding position like you're offering. Despite lacking the credentials and proper training qualifications, if I lived out that way, God knows I would apply.

Back into the shop I go...best of luck to you. I wouldn't second-guess the drug testing and background checks...there are just too many idiots out there these days. Keep it on there. There must be someone interested in learning the trade out there.

-Andy

Gordy

It all starts in junior high and high school. Remember shop class? The "arts" as I will call it is being either eliminated or viewed as a second rate future. Sad really not everyone is cut out for college degree careers. We make more than a lot of college degree wage earners. We get dirty, but it all comes off in the shower, and laundry.......most of it.

vaporvac

When I look at the brilliance of my original steam system's design and install, it's hard to believe hydronics is becoming MORE complicated. I really am with Gordy that the relegation of the Trades to something second rate is the problem.
I spent many years in Belgium growing up where there was and IS a national dedication to the trades that recognized its continuing importance. (Although they could have learned a bit about toiler and sink traps.)
I don't really like the approach of dividing youngsters at the age of 12 into different career paths, but it gives a long period of learning and apprenticeship.
While I spent a long time on my education, not a day goes by that I'm not thankful I had the good sense to take typing and home ec because where else does one learn to do these things? Mom's not home cooking apple pie and sewing drapes for the house anymore and the same goes for shop class. This type of leaning seems more necessary now, not less.

FranklinD

I know what you mean. My mom was a high school English teacher for 35 years, my dad was an attorney for 30 (until he passed away), my eldest sister is a doctor, and my middle sister is an addiction counselor. I chose a different path and decided to become a mechanic. I work for the local municipality and we attempt to hire a new young person every year...and it's damn near impossible to find one that is a good tech, can also read and write well, pass a background check, and wants to work.

I've felt for a long time that there is WAY too much emphasis put on the whole idea of "you have to go to college and get a degree if you want to make a decent living".

The funny (sad) part is that some of the guys I know that are brilliant with their hands can't get jobs with better companies because they lack the 'formal education' they desire. They can run a lathe, weld and fabricate like magic, perform excellent documentation of everything, but get passed over for a guy with no practical experience, but has a degree in 'animal husbandry' or something like that. Just dumb.

Bob Bona_4

I think my mechanical interests were fueled at a young age due to growing up around family farming/house building. I can't remember subs, we even had our own well drill rig. Of course everything got fixed in house. Today, youths (yoots for John NY) aren't exposed to mechanical things very much at all.

JohnNY

I had a '66 Plymouth Satellite with two 4-barrel carbs on its 383 engine (4-speed). At $3,200, it cost me every penny I had. The first problem of many was a ruptured fuel line. Out of necessity, I bent my own fuel lines taking my dad's tubing bender, a handful of chrome speedy tubes and flaring tool off the plumbing van.

Those shiny rigid fuel lines were the envy of my block on Staten Island.

Suddenly for me, plumbing got cool.

Bob Bona_4

Mopar, or no car. I like this story.

ChrisJ

Copper fuel lines and Mopar, two things I never want.

Paul48

There's the difference........We learned how to do things, because we couldn't afford to pay someone else to do them. We've been raised to find a way.

Jamie Hall

Seems to me the problem is actually worse than this thread makes it seem to be! Not only does the educational community actively discourage young people from working in what might be called the trades -- which is really very very skilled work, most of the time -- but it does a perfectly horrible job of preparing folks for other design type work. Several of use have, in the past, said unfortunate things about engineers, for instance -- most of which are perfectly true. Why? because nowadays one can get to be an engineer -- even a licensed engineer -- and never do a lick of practical work. The result is, as we all know, engineered plans which are utterly useless.

I was just out the other day inspecting a road being built in my town and... I couldn't believe what I saw... but the engineered plans (which, thank goodness, the contractor wasn't following) had some of the drainage draining up hill...

Our whole society actively teaches people to be real snobs about honest, hands-on work.

I don't have a solution.

SlamDunk

please google: andy rooney, "where are all the plumbers?".

SlamDunk

i think this is properly credited.

Where Have All The Plumbers Gone?
May 12, 1987|By Andy Rooney, Tribune media services
For the past few days I've spent most of the time in my woodworking shop making a complicated little oak stool for Emily.

I like the whole process of writing, but when I get back there in my workshop, I notice that I'm quite contented. The other day I worked until 2:30 before I remembered I hadn't eaten lunch. It even has occurred to me that I could give up writing and spend the rest of my life making pieces of furniture that amused me. Who knows, I might get good at it.




It's a mystery to me why more people don't derive their satisfaction from working with their hands. Somehow, a hundred or more years ago, something strange happened in this country. Americans began to assume that all the people who did the good, hard work with their hands were not as smart as those who worked exclusively with their brains. The carpenters, the plumbers, the mechanics, the painters, the electricians and the farmers were put in a social category of their own below the one the bankers, the insurance salespeople, the doctors and lawyers were in. The jobs that required people to work with his or her hands were generally lower-paying jobs and the people who took them had less education.

Another strange thing has happened in recent years. It's almost as though the working people who really know how to do something other than make money are striking back at the white-collar society. In all but the top executive jobs, the blue-collar workers are making as much or more than the teachers, the accountants and the airline clerks.

The apprentice carpenters are making more than the young people starting out as bank clerks. Master craftsmen in any line are making $60,000 a year and many are making double that. In most large cities, automobile mechanics charge $45 an hour. A mechanic in Los Angeles or New York, working in the service department of an authorized car dealer, can make $60,000 a year. A sanitation worker in Chicago can make $35,000 a year. All this has happened, in part, at least, because the fathers who were plumbers made enough money to send their children to college so they wouldn't have to be plumbers.

It's hard to account for why we're so short of people who do things well with their hands. You can only conclude that it's because of some mixed-up sense of values we have that makes us think it is more prestigious to sell houses as a real-estate person than it is to build them, as a carpenter.

To further confuse the matter, when anyone who works mostly with his brain, as I do, does something with his hands, as when I make a piece of furniture, friends are envious and effusive with praise. So, how come the people who do it professionally, and infinitely better than I, aren't in the country club?

If I've lost you in going the long way around to make my point, my point is that considering how satisfying it is to work with your hands and considering how remunerative those jobs have become, it is curious that more young people coming out of school aren't learning a trade instead of becoming salespeople.

JUGHNE

That was a pretty brave road contractor to defy the plans that every engineer knows has to be correct.

Did you ever point out obvious mistakes to an engineer. Most will try to persuade you that that water will run uphill, rather than say "yea, I messed up, really glad you caught that and did the right thing and kept the job moving along."

Most have a tough time considering advice from some blue collar buffoon, who has had his hands dirty for 30 years. Often this is the attitude a lot of degreed people have. And that might start in high school, imposed by people who have degrees and believe everyone must have the same student loan burden, mediocre wages, and some job where you never really build anything. (Sorry for the ranting/venting)

Tim McElwain

I have in the past been involved with two different programs which went into the high schools to attempt to interest young people in getting involved in the plumbing/heating/service business. Because of the lack of encouragement from teachers and educators our programs were ask to not come back to the schools. They felt that we were discouraging young folks from getting a college education. The interesting thing about our group was that we were all three in the trades and all had at least a bachelor's degree. All of us had an annual income greater than all the teachers including vice principals and is some cases even the principal.

It is I am sad to say a loosing battle.

I do however love to run into a young guy or girl who wants to learn the business. I will invest every bit of knowledge I can into them.

You never know what will happen. My own son started out in the plumbing and heating & building trade and was going to school at the same time. He later went into the medical profession but will always have the trade to fall back on. The construction company he owned he gave to his nephew (my grandson) and he is doing well in the construction and design business and is also a five year college graduate in architecture.

SlamDunk

the steam system engineers of my facility attempted to route condensate lines from air handlers vertically 15' then horizontally 25-50' during construction. it took a little work to convince them that water doesnt flow uphill. i have interviewed freshly minted mechanical engineers incapable of reading simple schematics. universities do not teach drafting, the universal language of all who are technical.

BobC

The biggest problem with the schools is while they teach kids to pass the test they don't train them to solve problems. Industry needs people who can think on their feet.

We should start offering apprentice courses in high school to kids who want to learn a trade. I think South Carolina has an funded apprentice program now (at the behest of industry) and industry down there is booming.

We should also show most school administrators the door and bring in new ones who can teach students HOW TO THINK.

Bob

JUGHNE

My first ranting was the situation that big city schools seem to have. I have 2 grandkids there who graduated with class size of about 500 students.

Now for a brighter story: My small cow/corn town here in the Midwest had a graduating class of 15, yes 15 is about an average in really small town. Out of 15, 3 are heading to welding school, (one is a girl, women I've been told make better welders...details). One is going to lineman school. Typically these 4 are hired as soon as they complete the trade school.
About 5 of the 15 are actually really collage material and going in that direction. The granddaughter is headed toward what it takes to be a dentist. One student is working as an apprentice restaurant chef, (talk about no student loans and if you change your mind, just move on.) The rest are off towards an associate's degree in something. But they realize a 4 year degree is not their destiny at the moment. We owe this to the student guidance counselor we have here. They all have some form of scholarship or grant funding to get started on their way, this was mainly due to the work of the counselor.

The city kids with the 500 size class, only 25% got scholarships or funding. (When you sit through a graduation that size you have plenty of time to read the 40 page program.)

So there is a little hope out here, but most of these kids will not venture outside the Midwest for their careers.

SWEI

@JohnNY I am amazed that you and others are running into this in the biggest of big cities. Somehow I thought it was mostly an issue facing those of us in the smaller towns.

I am an electrical engineer, currently licensed as an electrical contractor. My journeymen are both over 50, as are more than half of my apprentices. All four of the plumbers we regularly work with are over 60, and two are over 70 There are a couple of journeymen in those ranks who are "only" over 40. Can't think of one who is less than 40 years old.

I have spent the past two years searching for someone to hire to qualify us for a mechanical license and finally resolved myself to going and taking all of the tests myself. The PE's I work with range from about 55 to over 80 years old.

This is pretty much the definition of unsustainable.

Paul48

I think the problem is worse in urban settings. The city kids don't grow up building tree forts, and tinkering with mini-bikes. Look at it from their perspective........Why should they get dirty, and come home sore from work. They've been told, get a degree, and you'll get a white-collar job. We are making better students, and that only requires a good memory. You can graduate "first in your class" without a bit of common sense.

gennady

What a great niche to make a great living. Why complain. Lesser offering on the market brings higher prices for the product in demand. What industry need to do is increase pricing for services and offer better pay to employees. But it does not seem to happen. Probably something wrong with industry?

JohnNY

The truth is I did get a lot of résumés through which I've been sorting all month.
About 75 in all.
Of them, 20 were just people spitballing and had no relevant experience whatsoever and clearly just bounced from job to job through their 30s and 40s.
About 40 applicants were a mix of people calling themselves "Supervisors" (that's a big thing around here. People promote themselves from Indian to Chief after 5 years of carrying a tool bucket), or lived too far away, some couldn't muster up the brains to create a sentence or spell "plumbing" or "boiler" properly on their résumés, many had inexplicable gaps in their careers which, when we do perform background checks, often relates to prison or time in rehab, others were just otherwise not good candidates.
Another 10 or so were not authorized to work in the US.
So, again, all told, there were about 4-5 people I could consider calling.
Mind you, mine is an MES Division shop. That's Mechanical Equipment Service. We're not the top-tier pay grade shops that build skyscrapers, and this is how I remain competitive, but I am able to call the hall and draw labor from membership when necessary.
The last time I did that, I gave the parameters within which I would ultimately hire. Among them, "I need to be able to send these guys into peoples' homes."
The response I got was "We don't have anyone here I would want you to send to my home while my wife was alone in the house."
That's a direct quote from the union rep.

I'm going to be careful what I say here because every word written on The Wall is scrutinized to death and remains a part of you forever, but there is, in general, a real problem with the type of person that makes him/herself available to this trade.

My experience in my part of the world is the stereotype is often reasonably accurate, or at least, I know exactly from where it comes.
We're not an industry that attracts top talent and we haven't been for a long time.
Our trade is not secure and I disagree that scarcity makes us more valuable. When there aren't enough of us to go around, we create the market for imported labor and this drags all of our value down disproportionately. This country has made exporting manufacturing work standard procedure. Now we're flooding unqualified service providers into our own homes and we're letting it happen.
I got my butt kicked on here a few months ago when I mentioned yet another terrible, non-functional, residential system I was called to fix last year had Chinese writing all over the pipes and relays. I'm sorry if I offended anyone but I'm offended too.
We're losing work, and steady jobs, to imported labor. This is by no means a commentary on immigration or reform. I have no idea who's here legally or not, it's just a general commentary that we're in a real bind when we can't grow, either as an industry or as individual service providers, with domestic labor.
Something has to change. This can't be right.

j a_2

Johnny, try the local v a ....the military has great training programs and some vets get a well deserved free ride for civilian training....A good mechanic I mean a good one with a good mechanical aptitude can make a good plumber..Sorry to say there's guys out here that call themselves plumbers they can't jump start a van, or replace a flat....There is a lot of hidden talent out here, finding it is difficult....Stay far away from family and friends.....The bottom line is the guy you hire may be the nicest guy in the world but if he can't make you money he's useless....I really hope you try the V A , or local guard outfit...Stay away from officers. Lol
,

Robert O'Brien

gennady said:

What a great niche to make a great living. Why complain. Lesser offering on the market brings higher prices for the product in demand. What industry need to do is increase pricing for services and offer better pay to employees. But it does not seem to happen. Probably something wrong with industry?

Which is why I take the "labor shortage" with a grain of salt. No boilers are going un -installed and there is plenty of low priced competition.

FranklinD

I never thought of it that way, and you are dead-on correct. When I 'interviewed' companies to replace my boiler (I should have done it myself), that was a question I never asked myself: Would I want this person, alone, in my home? Or worse yet, with my kids or wife? And I should have. It simply never occurred to me that maybe I couldn't trust someone whose business specialized in working in and around someone else's home.

We have all the various chains up here in the frozen North. I won't mention the names, but I'm sure you know them all. One quick look at Yelp or HomeAdvisor and one can see that the reviews are downright awful. Snakes busting through 100 year old cast iron stacks, damaging old (but still serviceable) Orangeburg pipe, floods, fires, and so on. But several of them mentioned missing electronic goods, jewelry, etc. Whether these people are sincere or not, or simply creating fodder for a false insurance claim, is hard to say. But it wouldn't shock me either way.

The way the trades are going is depressing...and apparently it isn't just around here. The last time I called a plumber (a REAL plumber), to replace cast iron drains in my second floor bathroom, he was in his mid-60's and his helper was in his mid-40's easily. They were quick, efficient, quiet, and certainly knew their craft. They were not cheap, but I am more than willing to pay for the expertise that guarantees that the job can be closed in and not worried about ever again.

I don't know. At 32, it's certainly not too late for me to go back to school and start a new trade. Equipment repair is okay, I enjoy building, repairing, and maintaining squad cars for our police dept, but even the automotive trade has changed in 13 years...less repair, more replace. The diagnostics alone have kept me interested. But perhaps it's time to move on. Doing the math, drawing out piping and control schematics, and balancing my old hot water system over the last month has been some of the most enjoyable work I've done in years...just ask my wife. I haven't shut up about it since I received my first book from Dan a year ago.

Once again, best of luck. I hope you find what (who) you're looking for out there.

Andy

BobC

I went to a Catholic vocational high school that gave me 4 years of electronics for 4 hours a day (carpentry, electrical, and printing were the other options) the rest of the day was spent on academics. Anybody that wanted college pretty much got into the school of their choice. There were public votech schools in the area that offered 4 years of automotive, plumbing, and machine shop courses. All of the graduates had no trouble getting jobs from what I could tell. Companies were always calling looking for help. Companies were always calling looking for help.

Me and my classmates all had jobs in our fields within a week of graduating, and some of us worked part time after school for the last semester with those companies.

The key is there was a ready market for trained labor and we got a good starting wage for that period (mid 60's). A lot of us got to go play in the service for 3 years and some were lucky enough to work in their field; I ran a recording studio and then ran a remote mountain microwave site in Korea.

There is only one votech in my area and that is about 25 miles away from me. We as a society have forced kids into a academic path they may not want while industry and the trades go begging for qualified help. A lot of these kids end up with bad jobs because they have ZERO training and the degree they hold has no real world application.

I spent the last 8 years of my working life repairing mail sorting machines for the post office. The pay was pretty good, great benefits (health insurance, retirement plan, and up to 5 weeks vacation), you had to pass a test and have a clean record. When I went to work for them at the start of the millennium they were having a tough time finding qualified people. I only worked for them for 8 years but I knew guys who worked there as mechs and techs for 40 years and they walked out the door with 80% of their base pay. Before you **** I can tell you most of these guys were worth it for the work they did and the **** they put up with.

They should reopen the votechs but the morons running the school systems won't allow it and the country is suffering because of it.

Bob

ChrisJ

I also agree with gennady. There's only one guy in NJ I'd let work on my system and it's currently @Jstar.

Though I've been looking at @Dave0176 's work and am impressed as well.

There are a ton that I'd never even let in my house to begin with, forget alone. I see many HVAC and plumbing trucks on the way to work every day so I'm not sure where the shortage is.

You want more skilled guys in the field that know what their doing you're going to have to convince the general American public to stop hiring the lowest bidder and ignoring the quality of work. It's not "these damn kids are lazy" it's "these damn people are ignorant and cheap".

That's my opinion anyway. Sure many kids are lazy but I don't think it's the heart of the problem.

There are skilled guys out there that take a lot of pride in their work and fact is they're starving because all of the hacks keep undercutting them.

SlamDunk

Dad made me go to college. He was a building superintendant in Manhattan. I wanted to do what he did and not go to college but he said, go to college. If you decide to come back to this, that would be great because you will have options and it will be YOUR decision. Me and the other guys? we do this because we have to. We would much rather do something else. We have to take a lot of crap because we have to. It wont be crap if it is your choice!

My first job out of college for a mechanics position required 8 hrs of intelligence testing, four hours of interviews with maintenance managers, directors, and VP's, 1+ hour with a psychiatrist.

The psychiatrist said it didn't matter how I tested or interviewed. Barring a failed drug test, they will hire me simply because the result of one test categorized me as an ISTP. There are very few people who are ISTP but they do the best in maintenance. Google it. Maybe it is evolution. Maybe it is genetic or maybe both.

I sought out my career from a strong gut feeling and I am happy. A lot of my colleagues kinda fell into it, and are usually under some stress that makes them unhappy. After awhile, you can tell who's who.

SWEI

ChrisJ said:

You want more skilled guys in the field that know what their doing you're going to have to convince the general American public to stop hiring the lowest bidder and ignoring the quality of work. It's not "these damn kids are lazy" it's "these damn people are ignorant and cheap".
...
There are skilled guys out there that take a lot of pride in their work and fact is they're starving because all of the hacks keep undercutting them.

We're not starving for customers. I have work backing up and we're having to turn away new jobs.

j a_2

Yup the guy that took over my business cannot at this time take on a single customer..to full
.
Then they ask for reference to another plumber...The answer is nope don't know any...You end up eating it every time...

ChrisJ

SWEI said:

ChrisJ said:

You want more skilled guys in the field that know what their doing you're going to have to convince the general American public to stop hiring the lowest bidder and ignoring the quality of work. It's not "these damn kids are lazy" it's "these damn people are ignorant and cheap".
...
There are skilled guys out there that take a lot of pride in their work and fact is they're starving because all of the hacks keep undercutting them.

We're not starving for customers. I have work backing up and we're having to turn away new jobs.

j a said:

Yup the guy that took over my business cannot at this time take on a single customer..to full

.

Then they ask for reference to another plumber...The answer is nope don't know any...You end up eating it every time...

Interesting.

Bob Bona_4

It's getting the new blood, quality, presentable, enthusiastic, without looking like they worked at a tattoo and piercing place..that's the problem. A willingness to learn - let's start there

Paul48

The ability to learn can't be the only goal. Job gratification doesn't put a roof over your head, or food on the table. Where's the promise? What's the reward for bloody knuckles? They've been given an expectation (false), that they will make a lot of money, merely by getting a college degree. As an industry, how do you counter that?

Steamhead

ChrisJ said:

you're going to have to convince the general American public to stop hiring the lowest bidder and ignoring the quality of work.

Fat chance.

SlamDunk

Most people who graduate from college do make more money than some one starting out in the various trades. Ten years later, maybe not the case.

But the flip side of the coin is 85% of college graduates are doing something other than what their degree is in. Heck, my company pays summer interns $22/hr.

JohnNY

It kills me to turn down work, but there is a certain satisfaction in being able to choose, too.
Right now, I'm forced to choose. It's not by preference. I just need more field staff.