Hiring Mechanics... Is there anyone out there at all these days?

Bob Bona_4

I get an interesting perspective on unions. My wife works for the 2nd largest labor law and discrimination firm in the country. They only represent the employer.

SlamDunk

I'm not trying to fan the flames. This glut phenomena applies to doctors and other professions too. Recently, med schools were in the news for accepting too many students to fill their coffers. The low scoring med students don't work at Sloan Kettering or Cornell, it can be argued that they are not qualified. They go to rural areas and they earn comparably low pay. I have personally witnessed the work of medical "knuckleheads"in these rural areas.

You know what they call a med student who squeaked by earning C's and D's?

Unfortunately, they are still called doctors.

MichaelK

I feel it is getting harder to get people into the trade. I got in at 18 fresh from high school, and green as could be. Owning 0 knowledge of the trade, I was cutting grass 2 days before. Now I'm 28, hold a master hvac and journeyman plumbers/gas fitters license.

I've been on and off this site over the years and love the old systems. There are endless possibilities in our trade. The trouble, as many have stated is getting young people in.

They are afraid of the dirt as some have told me, "I don't want to get dirty and turn wrenches like you", or they are put off by the amount of skill and knowledge in diverse directions you need. Rome wasn't built in a day.

College has really let many of my generation down, although I can't tell my buddies that, they believe in it. We were told money couldn't be earned without it. I never went. Started working 40 a week the day after high school ended.

You get out of life what you put in. Try your best college pays off, do the minimum, you get a minimum wage job with or without that piece of paper stating some degree you don't need to work at Best Buys selling phones.

Motivation for the next generation is what we really need. Hey guys - playing on your smart phone and gaming on the computer will not earn you 100k a year. Turning this big wrench and getting a little dirty however....

SlamDunk

Motivation for the next generation is what we really need. Hey guys - playing on your smart phone and gaming on the computer will not earn you 100k a year. Turning this big wrench and getting a little dirty however....

Yeah but with social security reportedly on the wane, pensions unheard of and financial gurus telling us to work until we are seventy, you need to earn decent cash soon after hiring so you can save in an IRA or a 401k- not five years later. With the cyclical ups and downs in the various trades and a slew of other issues like poor management and immigrant labor suppressing wages, trades dont look very attractive-and I am involved with the trades. I'm starting to question my own career choices!

I cant imagine turning a wrench, climbing ladders, or replacing a boiler at seventy. Maybe young people have it right.

BobC

I think social security can be made workable with some adjustments. people will have to work longer because life expediencies have increased. The withholding rate will probably have to go up about a half a percent for the worker and the employer.

One problem is people working in the trades can't work as long as someone with a desk job so some allowances have to be made for physical condition. I had to retire at 62 because of my back and legs, I was lucky to have put money aside for retirement so that was doable for me. If I didn't have savings the reduced payout would be very tough to live on.

The real budget buster is medicare and medicaid, the cost of those is ballooning out of control. They have to control costs and think before extending benefits to people who never contributed to the system

SlamDunk

The median salary for a plumber was $50,180 in 2013, the BLS reports. The best-paid pulled in about $86,120, while those in the bottom 10 percent earned $29,590 a year. The metropolitan areas that pay particularly well include Nassau, New York; San Francisco; and Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Apprentices who are just starting out could make 30 to 50 percent less than a fully trained plumber.-US News 2013

According to the BLS, real estate agents earned a median salary of $39,800 in 2013. The best-paid earned about $98,090, while the lowest-paid earned approximately $21,240. The highest earners worked in the metropolitan areas of Lake County, Illinois; New York City; and Ocean City, New Jersey. US NEWS 2013

The BLS reports the median annual salary for high school teachers was $55,360 in 2013. The best-paid 10 percent in the field made approximately $86,720, while the bottom 10 percent made $37,230. Compensation is typically based on years of experience and educational level. Salaries and benefit packages can also differ at public and private institutions. The highest-paid in the profession work in three metropolitan areas in New York: Nassau, New York City and Poughkeepsie.US NEWS 2013
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Weigh income against personal injury, potential exposure to hazards known and unknown, liabilities against licenses and you can see what goes thru a young persons mind when choosing careers. I dont think schools are responsible for the lack of qualified candidates. Business owners are. people bust their heinies to get jobs on oil fields- really dirty jobs. because they pay.

NEW YORK (CNNMoney) -- It may be dangerous, difficult work, but oil drillers are well compensated for the job: In 2011 the average salary for rig workers and other industry personnel was $99,175.
That number includes fat paychecks for the highly skilled, like $235,586 for a "drilling consultant" and $139,868 for a "reservoir engineer", according to Rigzone, an industry information provider that compiled the figures.
But even for someone with less than a year's experience the average wage was $66,923.
A roustabout, one of the lowest workers on a rig who performs general maintenance and physical labor and requires little prior training, made $34,680 -- the median wage for all American workers.
The high wages are being fueled by a surge in demand for drilling experts as the industry becomes increasingly technical and a drilling boom in the United States, Brazil and elsewhere. Plus, many drillers are retiring -- a phenomenon in the industry known as "the great crew change" that's only expected to accelerate over the next decade.

jonny88

Nassau Long Island???.Best paid ,I would love to know where they get that info from.Expensive to live in Yes.

Paul48

Those numbers are unrealistic. It reminds me of Bill Clinton's tax cuts going allllll the way up to a family income of 35k....lol.....Oh yeah, and unemployment is down.

Gordy

Yeah very unrealistic.

Gordy

The great crew change is everyone going to college thinking they will make great money. The reality is some of those are artesians pulled from the crafts pool where they could have made as much money, or more, and have that education paid for instead of paying for it. Certainly this is not from a population decline.

Paul48

I believe more young kids know that college is in their future. By junior high school I knew college wasn't happening for me. The money wasn't going to be there. I wasn't alone. Many of my friends were in the same boat. It wasn't a big deal, there was good jobs in manufacturing, everywhere. Those jobs are gone now. The manufacturers that are left are staffing with temps, with low wages and no benefits ( immigration reform?). And that is not a commentary on hard working immigrants, it's just a fact. White collar jobs are still available, and that's what these kids are trying for. How many plumbers on here are second or third generation?

JohnNY

SlamDunk said:

The median salary for a plumber was $50,180 in 2013, the BLS reports. The best-paid pulled in about $86,120, while those in the bottom 10 percent earned $29,590 a year. The metropolitan areas that pay particularly well include Nassau, New York; San Francisco; and Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Apprentices who are just starting out could make 30 to 50 percent less than a fully trained plumber.-US News 2013

According to the BLS, real estate agents earned a median salary of $39,800 in 2013. The best-paid earned about $98,090, while the lowest-paid earned approximately $21,240. The highest earners worked in the metropolitan areas of Lake County, Illinois; New York City; and Ocean City, New Jersey. US NEWS 2013

I'm very happy to say that techs in my company earn considerably more than those numbers suggest.
And the only two real estate agents I know earn about 5 times more than those "best earners" listed.
Maybe the numbers are skewed in big cities like NYC, but that's just the way it is.

I'm frequently asked by people from other states how I could possibly operate a service business in NYC and that answer is simple. We charge more than you're used to and people expect to pay it when they call.
Service work is particularly difficult and costly. Out of an 8-hour workday, we try to get 5 billable hours per team. It's a home run if it actually happens.
This makes labor a major expense considering the amount of down time built into every day. Our hires must produce income for the entire day when they're finally in a position to do so. That means getting through each task as quickly as possible and having the material and know-how to get it done, whatever "it" is. It's not every tech's cup of tea. Hiring is therefore hampered for finding the right work ethic and personality along with the skill set.

SlamDunk

Unrealistic low? or unrealistic high?

Gordy

If you think about @JohnNY last post, it's a hurdle every company owner faces. Employees Taking 10 min. To look for stuff through out the course of the day adds up to big dollars to the company in non productive wages paid out in a years time. Remember that when you forget this, or that, for the job.

ChrisJ

I'm still stuck on the not doing backround checks or drug testing. How does that help an employer unless he's no longer paying for it? Cutting the cost is a good thing but randomly hiring people without a backround check or drug test sounds like jumping out of the pan into the fire.

To be clear, this is a question that I'm hoping seasoned business owners can help me understand.

SWEI

There are background checks and there are background checks. There are also reports of a lot of bogus info coming out of the providers thereof.

Drug testing and drug problems also have a somewhat tenuous connection. I'd far rather work with someone who smokes a joint every weekend than someone who's drinking out of a flask every breaktime.

JohnNY

@ChrisJ
1. I don't have to do the background check. My insurance company does it when I submit the applicant's license to make sure this person is insurable as a driver.
2. The Union does its own check.
3. It's illegal for me to do it.

Don't let the idea of this consume you. I'll bet there's not 5 other people on this board that do background checks on their prospective employees. This isn't Banking. It's boiler repair. Guys smoke pot and drink and if that's all they do, and they perform well in the field, then you've gotta call that a win.

Paul48

As long as they don't do it in the customers basement.

Steamhead

JohnNY said:

@ChrisJ
3. It's illegal for me to do it.

Time to consider moving your business to a jurisdiction that doesn't favor criminals over business owners.

SlamDunk

Your dilemma is getting noticed. Maybe there is hope for you guys:

http://money.cnn.com/2015/10/01/news/economy/america-job-skills-gap-apprentice/index.html

jonny88

Im off to the Union or is that a satire article from The Onion.Problem with Union plumbers is they can get stuck doing one thing for many years.I had a friend who was installing shower pans for 6 months straight.Than he went on to waste stacks where he still is.I dont think they get the experience in all aspects of plumbing as most work is high rises etc but I stand to be corrected.$117,000 is the package forgive my math what does that translate to on a Friday when you take home your check.Very interesting article,thanks for posting.

SlamDunk

Well, it's from CNN, not The Onion. And assuming 26 paydays, that works out to $4500/pay day before deductions. Or 2250/week before deductions if you assume 52 paydays per year.

njtommy

its $42 an hour in pocket. His benfits are on top of that number. I would imagine that's additional $20-25 an hour.

It's defiantly not hard to make six figures a year in this trade if you are good and hustle.

Docfletcher

Does the union offer apprenticeships either through state a sponsored program or perhaps some other venue?

njtommy

@dockfletcher
The Union puts out the applications once a year ( at least in Nj). You fill out the app. Then every one gets a letter in the mail and you go take a test. Basic math skills, reading comprehension and things of that nature. A after weeks that you get your test scores and an interview with the apprenticeship board. After that you will be notified if you got in or are on the waiting list.

It took me 2 years to get into the Union. They like seeing guy keep trying. There are a lot of people who don't return the following year. They want to know if your serious.

The unfortunate part is there are guys that start out in the program and just drop out do to not enough money, drug test, can't handle the work, and or don't like the work.

I can say those 5 years went fast. ( been in local for 9 years) I've learned a so much and have worked on so many types of equipment. I get to work all types of chillers, boilers big and small, air handlers, VAV systems, geothermal, roof top units, Refrigertion, ductless splits, City multi units, heatpumps, ATC work, and Server room units like Lieberts.

Some guys are not so lucky to be exposed to every thing. They become Refrigertion guys and work a ton of hour each week. And that's all they do is big rack systems, case work and installs of supermarket refrigeration.

SlamDunk

Sounds like you have a great career!

But would you recommend it your kids?

I used to be an aircraft mechanic and the airline industry got hammered. Many high timers were forced into retirement, young people were laid off. everyone else relocated , placed on midnights with wierd days off. In a forum like this, most mechanics said they wouldnt recommend aviation to their kids. Or, any kid.

njtommy

Yes I'm very lucky.

We all want our kids to do better then we did/ do, but Some kids are just not meant to sit behind a desk.

College is not for everyone. I think education and training is very important tho.

Docfletcher

One way the state could become more involved... Offer some rudimentary training which might once exposed get young folks interested.

RobG

Docfletcher said:

One way the state could become more involved... Offer some rudimentary training which might once exposed get young folks interested.

As it's been stated earlier in the post, it used to be called vocational school.

SlamDunk

have you folks ever considered or do you currently hire high school kids during the summer? If you do, how many became better people for the experience? How many stayed in the trade?

I ask because first, i think it is more beneficial than relying on the govt to help and second, because I get 2-3 Interns, a summer sometimes for several summers, at my pharma company. these kids will never be in a technical field. to date, most are Pharm D or pre med students. I give them really unsavory jobs for two reasons: 1) stay in school if you think this sucks & 2) remember this crap work? someone has to do it. you may never know them or see them, but someone does it so, take your trash to a can, appreciate that someone does do this crap and try not to add to their burden- be nice to us and treat us with respect.

I think you guys are the vocational schools.

Harvey Ramer

SlamDunk said:

have you folks ever considered or do you currently hire high school kids during the summer? If you do, how many became better people for the experience? How many stayed in the trade?

I ask because first, i think it is more beneficial than relying on the govt to help and second, because I get 2-3 Interns, a summer sometimes for several summers, at my pharma company. these kids will never be in a technical field. to date, most are Pharm D or pre med students. I give them really unsavory jobs for two reasons: 1) stay in school if you think this sucks & 2) remember this crap work? someone has to do it. you may never know them or see them, but someone does it so, take your trash to a can, appreciate that someone does do this crap and try not to add to their burden- be nice to us and treat us with respect.

I think you guys are the vocational schools.

Insurance and liability?

rick in Alaska

Everyone keeps telling me to get a helper because of my work load. I keep telling them because of the laws around here regarding plumber helpers, they would have to be in an approved apprentice program, I would have to get workmans comp on them, and they would have to buy a license. It would cost me too much headache and financial cost to get someone set up, so I don't do it. I can't even hire someone to dig a ditch for me unless they are licensed.
Now my thought is this;
Kids go to college and pay big money to get an education to get a job. Why don't the state allow me to train these people, and I wouldn't even charge them for the training! Since I am a mechanical administrator, my training to them should count toward their eventual licensing.I would just have to keep track of hours worked and what kind of work done, but that would be ok for me. Win win for everyone. I wouldn't have to have workmans comp on them because they are not an employee, so would save me there.
I am sure there would be some kind of insurance issue, but overall it seems like a good thing for everyone.
Don't it? Thoughts?
Rick

BobC

Back in the 80's we took a half a dozen kids from the local HS and used them for general help around the plant. The operation was very vertically oriented so we did EVERYTHING it took to build a power supply short of smelting the ore for the basic aluminum and copper.

We had them working in the machine shop, on the assembly line and helping out in the test department. I guarantee they learned more working at that plant after school and Saturdays than they ever did in college. We ignored all the regs about what you could and couldn't do with kids of their age and never had a problem. If you get these kids early and train them right it makes a huge difference. A bright willing kid can be trained to do almost any job and do it right.

That would be harder today with the idiots that set the rules but those kids got a great education. I talked the one I worked with the most out of going to law school, I told him the country has more than enough lawyers. After HS he got accepted to the air force academy and flew C130's in an out of Baghdad in Gulf War One. He made his old boss very proud.

Bob

SWEI

Harvey Ramer said:

SlamDunk said:

have you folks ever considered or do you currently hire high school kids during the summer?

Insurance and liability?

Right. Our WC carrier will not cover anyone under 18.

SlamDunk

Insurance and liability?

Right. Our WC carrier will not cover anyone under 18.


what a shame. and a loss.

SWEI

There are ways around it. The local charter high school has insurance that covers their interns. The public school doesn't seem interested.

Bob Bona_4

Exactly. There are no broom pushers allowed. Registered apprentices, with journeyman constant supervision. It's a real commitment on both the employer and apprentice parts.

From time to time, I'll check in with some local vo-tech teachers. One school's teacher is in tight with his favorite local contractor buddy. Sends him the best, yearly- and yes, read into that-doesn't return my calls. Others, the pool is shallower by the year.

SlamDunk

yeah,my point exactlY. why not hire outside of schools? employees kids, neighbors kids? Why not place an old fashion help wanted ad? Statisticly, the majority will not stay, but they will always remember; they few that stick it out will be the future.

oh, right. liability insurance. how did you and I survive the preinsurance days?

Did we buyinto the security blanket hype? I know my company did.

KC_Jones

The company I work for hires interns all the time. They work in the shop in the office where ever. Most of the time they are actually the children of employees. It's an unwritten rule that there is always a summer job for your kids if they want it, very few take advantage. I have never heard of any insurance issues and they have had 16 year old kids in the shop many times...I am guessing it depends on the size of the company and the insurance company involved. My oldest is 8 this year and I already told him he will work there at least one summer no choice in the matter. No matter what he ends up doing in life he will know what working is and he might even learn something. Also one of my brother in laws is the welding instructor at the local vocational school and the company I work for has hired several of his students, we actually have a "scrap bin" in our sheet metal department that is for his class. We work closely with that school and it pays off big time.

Rich_49

A couple things that just popped up . Cannot figure out why the need has not been recognized , well , not really , but don't wanna get too political , especially here .

http://www.industryweek.com/manufacturing-day/high-school-confidential-manufacturing-cool

http://www.careersinhvacr.org/site/1/Home