Hiring Mechanics... Is there anyone out there at all these days?

L Thiesen

I agree with ChrisJ on this one. Many people talk about wanting quality but do not want to pay for it. After 43 years in the plumbing trade I have seen many boom and bust times, if I had it to do over I would look for something else to do. I would not suggest young people get into this trade if they have other options. The race to the bottom is only picking up speed sad to say.

Abracadabra

SWEI said:

We're not starving for customers. I have work backing up and we're having to turn away new jobs.

Ditto

Paul Pollets

The shortage today of qualified plumbers, HVAC and particularly hydronic experts was predicted over 20 years ago by Frank Blau. It will get worse. Unless there's incentive financially for newbies, and high school counselors funnel mechanically inclined students to the trades, this story will not end well. I have a degree and it has made my career more lucrative and improved communication skills. I made it a point to take the seminars for business training and the manufacturer's courses relative to the products I prefer. It has made a difference. I too, wonder where the next generation will come from, or if they'll come at all?

jonny88

Sorry Bob But I worked with a Lic NYC plumber who had plenty of tattoos but a finer plumber you will not get.Don't be to quick to judge.Damn my friend worked at a bar in Wall Street and the finest gentlemen frequented the premises.After a couple of hours gentlemen they were not.Don't think drink and drugs are only associated with tradesmen.

gennady

If there is large jobs backlogs, then the price of these jobs is too low. If company offers, let's say, $189 per hour as a compensation, then quite many people will quickly forget social prejudices towards working with their hands and will line up to work for the company. The best people. Problem solved.
And regarding convincing american public. We don't have to convince all public. Smart clients know quality, when they see one. The problem is that everybody puts price sticker on himself. And often it is very deep discounted price.

Harvey Ramer

I am interested to see how the next 30 years pan out. I'll have hit the ripe old age of 60 by then.

Bob Bona_4

I'm not judging Jonny , but my customers may, and I can't afford the lost business. Just the way it is.

Aaron_in_Maine

I started in the trade because my dad started in the trade a few years before me he was a diesel mechanic before that. He was working on a oil truck when the owner of the company came to pick the truck up and offered him a job.
I started out on my own four years ago at the age of 30 at that time I had 8 1/2 years of experience working for the fuel companies. I learned about 3 years in that most of the talented installers up in this neck of the woods work for themselves or have a sweetheart deal with the shop they work for like installs only and no on call. Not to say that all the independent guys are talented most are just good salesmen and don't care if it works correctly after the check clears.
There is a tech school here that turns out apprentices every spring and fall licensed in gas and oil and AC. Most can't find a job because the companies want experience. As far as plumbers go it's hard to find service plumbers in the area most just want to do new construction. I don't know how it works in NYC but up here you don't have to have a plumbing license to work on hydronic or steam systems just the license for the burner attached to it gas, oil, etc.

gennady

Bob Bona said:

I can't afford the lost business. Just the way it is.

As Frank Zappa said:" We're Only in it for the Money".

If there is no money, maybe it is good for some deals to be lost. It is better than get jobs and have no ability to pay qualified people decent compensation.

Gordy

The response I got was "We don't have anyone here I would want you to send to my home while my wife was alone in the house."
That's a direct quote from the union rep.

Stifling is it not ? The sense of entitlement is also.

Gordy

Paul48 said:

The ability to learn can't be the only goal. Job gratification doesn't put a roof over your head, or food on the table. Where's the promise? What's the reward for bloody knuckles? They've been given an expectation (false), that they will make a lot of money, merely by getting a college degree. As an industry, how do you counter that?

"You gotta want it"
That is the gratification,entitlement,The promise, and the expectations of ones self.

There is nothing more gratifying than doing a job in ANY trade that seems impossible, and beyond ones bounds. When you complete the job with good results you walk away.....Boy that was a MF, but I/We did it. Thats what its all about. That mind set ends up being good Karma, and putting food on the table it never goes unnoticed by someone worth earning a living from.

Paul48

I think gennady has the answer. If you want the best employees, be the best employer. If you pay the same as every other company, you get what's available in the market....the dreggs of humanity. And, obviously that goes for union shops as well.

Gordy

While sadly true. I personally think we make damn good money in all trades. Problem is the entitlement generation gets the same money with less than stellar performance.

Paul48

I don't think that trade employees are well paid, necessarily. It had to be 20 years ago, that I heard you had to earn $17/hr to afford a 2 bedroom apartment in CT. It was about that same time, I heard that secretaries in NYC averaged $25/hr. Where would that put the tradesman scale today?

Gordy

My point is that a Union Journeymans scale is based on someone who is suppose to be fluent in their trade. This has been a degrading issue for some time. So an owner has to pay more for an employee Just to meet that standard? That ambition? Now if you find someone who exceeds that standard then by all means pay the money you find it to be worth.

Thats like paying more than the asking price for a brand new car with out dents............Or maybe I'm getting old?

Paul48

No.......An owner has to make it known that he is "willing" to pay more for those that "set" the standard. We need to return to the thinking that an employee is an asset, and not a liability.

Gordy

We will agree to disagree be a good employee, if you feel you are not recognized for being an asset then move on. If the employer does not want to lose you they will pay to keep you. Putting yourself out there as willing to pay for going the extra mile does not produce consistant long term performance after a raise is given.

If someone busts **** with no inventive think of how they will be if given a raise from left field. Most tradesmen want to set that mark just to be able to work consistantly. First you have to prove you are what a journeyman should be.

Paul48

We're not covering new ground here. There's no need to re-invent the wheel. Simply follow the examples of the most successful companies. It's not always about raises. Why not reward an employee that just saved you $2000, one time. Call him/her in and give them a few bucks extra in their check. Maybe give them tickets to a football game, or, heaven-forbid say thank you.
If an employee gets to the point that they feel they are not being recognized....you better hope they move on, because they are done. Nothing will change that. No monies, after the fact will change it either. At that point, you have created a cancer in your company.
No one, ever, busts **** with no incentive and "be thankful you have a job" certainly is not one.

Gordy

Paul I think we are speaking about two different things Union verses non Union. A union journeyman has a set scale no matter his ability he is a journeyman. That's what the employer pays for is his package no matter the performance. I see so much hall trash it's pathetic . Nothing against non Union but I think there is more latitude for the employer with non Union. The employer is not stuck paying top scale for sub standard help. There is nothing that keeps from paying a Union tradesman more than his scale either.

ChrisJ

Not sure about plumbing but from what I saw sub standard union carpenters don't work much if at all. They spend a lot of time down at the hall and out of work.

Paul48

I understand that, but it leaves the employer with the same problem, and the only way to counter that, is the way I described. It's just another pool of workers. If you want the best from the pool, there's only one way to do that.

Gordy

ChrisJ said:

Not sure about plumbing but from what I saw sub standard union carpenters don't work much if at all. They spend a lot of time down at the hall and out of work.

Chris if you are a good carpenter you can work steady provided there is work, and the weather permits the work if outside. Depending on the time of year, and the work out in the field there is usually steady work for good carpenters. Guys that work out of the hall exclusivley usually are waiting for the big over time jobs, or have burned many bridges.

ChrisJ

Gordy said:

ChrisJ said:

Not sure about plumbing but from what I saw sub standard union carpenters don't work much if at all. They spend a lot of time down at the hall and out of work.

Chris if you are a good carpenter you can work steady provided there is work, and the weather permits the work if outside. Depending on the time of year, and the work out in the field there is usually steady work for good carpenters. Guys that work out of the hall exclusivley usually are waiting for the big over time jobs, or have burned many bridges.

The guys I know are never at the hall and almost never out of work.

sonofaplumber

I can give some of you the flip side of the coin! good introduction for me as the new guy too.

I'm 22 years old. Salesmen. Sit at this computer with two monitors 9 hours a day and make way more money than I'm worth.

I started when I was 4 with an obsession with working with my hands. Electronics, automotive, power sports, carpentry, and plumbing all as my hobbies and have served me with some income too.

My first job was $8/hr in the local junkyard. It sucked. Soon though my neighbor as an independent heating contractor asked me to help him during summers and after school. Summer of my sophmore year I was installing 3 oil-fired hot water systems a week throughout the state. The money was $10/hr under the table (shh). At the same time I helped another ind. contractor do heat pumps. I helped install some of the first geo-thermal setups in Maine. The work wasn't steady though and those guys needed 40 hour helpers while I was in school. So I applied at the local parts distributor (power sports) for warehouse work and got the job.

After highschool I got accepted to the University of Maine for their excellent engineering program. Mechanical engineering, that is. Our first few core classes I remember sitting in a lecture hall with 200 feeling like I had to vomit. Every one of them had never had a spec of dirt under their nails and the reason was always the same "I don't care about building stuff I just want the money" I dropped out the end of my second semester to work full time at the Warehouse.


4 years later and 3 promotions (all earned with my hands) I'm one of the highest paid employees here and sit at my desk all day.

my .02 when it comes to keeping the trades alive. It is so unfortunate

Gordy

Paul48 said:

I understand that, but it leaves the employer with the same problem, and the only way to counter that, is the way I described. It's just another pool of workers. If you want the best from the pool, there's only one way to do that.

Union is not really just another pool of workers. The employer is bound by many by laws depending on the trade. Again stuck paying premium wage for sub standard help is much different than starting someone out at a fair non Union wage, and we will see how you work out.


Maybe I'm a different bird 32 years as union tradesman, and I never asked for more than what my package paid for the position I held foreman, or superintendent. When I told the company I work for that I had an opportunity to go with another company that asked me, I did not seek them. They said what do we have to do to make you stay. My response was it does not do the company any good to pay me more money to stay if they are not getting work. At the time they were just not getting work, and I told them that was the reason for leaving I could see that on the horizon. In the end I chose to stay I got a 5.00 raise things are coming back. Yes it's nice to be appreciated, and nice to be compensated, but to expect it is an entitlement thing that does not settle right with me.

Gordy

Then again Paul you would appreciate this. I stopped tonight to get a pair of new boots at a small red wing shop on my way home from a job in that area. Been in business since 48.

I walk in ask for the usual Irish setter 894s 12 D. The owner asked me to try them on I declined my boots, and socks were muddy, and wet. He said try them on when you get home if they don't fit bring them back. He proceeds to offer the flags for the laces where the other red wing store I shopped at it was like pulling teeth to get get them. He threw in a set of free laces that I never asked for, or would have got at the other red wing store. Guess where I'll be buying my boots from now on.

Brewbeer

Sonofaplumber: seasoned, experienced engineers, especially PEs, who have real life hands on abilities, are worth their weight in gold, and can write their own ticket.

The ribbing aside from the folks posting here: if you have the talent, perseverance, and funding to graduate with an engineering degree, do it.

NYplumber

I scanned the above posts. My unorganized thoughts are as follows:
I find that out in the sticks there are more willing to turn wrenches. The limitation is usually they are uneducated (hydronics, combustion, fluid flow). They are crafty and artsy and when taught will replicate well.
On a recent trip to Montreal to their big hydronic, plumbing & electric expo I saw many young kids just out of high school. They look more interested in the trades. Maybe Canadians are different.

On another note the amount of hack work I see is getting out of hand. It ranges from poor placement of AC components blocking an otherwise usable attic to me finding a home that someone vented two power vented water heaters with corrugated drain pipe secured with electrical tape (which softened from the heat and made someone in that home sick so they moved...they thought it was due to mold..)

Theres very little pride on blue collar work here in the USA or the components we make. From time to time you can find a nice product or mechanic, far and few between.

Lets see where we stand in a short few years.

j a_2

Johnny, that's why codes and laws are set... I know I know there are even hack licensed people...out here, but there are far more gypsys out here lieing and cheating customers....local government can not afford to chase them...but I wish they could..there is no one single good answer...As a small guy trying to raise a family back in my day, I just wanted to go to work and make my payments...So I kept it small and kept it all...I honesty don't know how anyone has the make up to run a big trade business , I know I could have never done that...I had enough trouble managing myself....I did the teaching thing for a local high school,on a half time basis...we had a bran spanking new high school with state of the art plumbing/Hvac shop...Well I only lasted 2 year's., why because not enough of the kids wanted to be plumbers...So they cut back the program, that helped train plumbers in our area for a couple generations... I blame the school officials that only cares about numbers, a kid going to college is far more points to them than a kid going into the trades..They don't care....I had kids in my class whose mom and dad's had no idea they were in plumbing class at the high school...So needless to say parent teacher conferences were lonely...The one of the few set of parents that did show up, her son now ownes my small little business, and at 24 ownes a house... He is a true success story, gave up 4 years to fight for our country as a Marine combat soldier, and now back tearing it up...He was smart enough for college, in fact so smart he did not go...He will never be hungry...

RobG

About 25-30 years ago I stopped by my old high school to see what it was like and found that all of the trades classes had been shut down, even cosmetology which surprised me the most because that is where the faculty went for free haircuts.

I went to school there when it was still country (Fairfax County, Va.). Now it is full of yuppies who don't believe little Johnny belongs anywhere but college and then Wall Street. God forbid he learned a trade! Such a shame as they used to have great programs and full classes.

BobC

This is what more districts should be doing -

http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/careersandeducation/a-high-school-where-college-is-not-the-goal/ar-AAeKxBf?li=AA4Zjn

It's time to pull the administrators heads out of the clouds (or maybe somewhere else) and deal with the fact some people are better working with there hands.

Bob

KC_Jones

My children are only in elementary school, but I pay fairly close attention to what goes on with our entire school system. Let's say I am a very involved parent. Anyway our school system got a new superintendent 2 years ago (this will be his 3rd year) and he is in my opinion quite good. First he reinstated the metals shop/lab because this town has a ton of industry and he thought it valuable to prepare kids for the place they live in and the jobs that will be available. Enrollment in this program has increased every year. He attracted the attention of the local businesses and at the end of last year received 140k from one business and installed a technology center. Now in this center there will be CAD systems and 3D printing (among other things). Those technologies tie in directly with the metal lab and he will have students graduating high school that can not only design parts, but then make those parts using any current or older technology. This guy "gets it" in my opinion. If our school system was bigger and had more money I am sure he would spread this into other trades. Our high school only has around 500 students for all 4 grades. We are pretty small. I know this story doesn't directly relate to your trade I just thought you would like to hear about a school system that is doing the opposite of what a lot of others seem to be doing.

SlamDunk

Im not buying into this pity party. I tried but cant. The only people who make decent wages are the owners -not the workers. Who, in their right mind would pass up a college education in this rapidly growing technological world to be a craftsman? My argument is that only the truly geneticly wired craftsperson would. the rest are wannabes and they dont make anyone look good. So, I guess, if fifty percent of the wannabes were denied entry, pay and job security would have to go up. I argue that craftspersons, who are a different shade of engineer, are historically a small group until high schools and community colleges pumped them out by the hundreds.

Bob100

It's a Throw Away Society today that it has put a lot of repair and services in a thing of the past category. Too many times it is more cost effective to just go out and buy a new one than having the broken item repaired. When I was a kid I was always rummaging thru the local dump ( less of those around today too ) and found all sorts of things that we could not afford to buy. I would find things and bring them home and learn about them , many times repair them and that was the basis of an introduction to the repair and service businesses. I was the only kid on the block with my own color tv ( RCA CTC4 ), brought home from the dump and repaired it, same with air conditioners, vacuum cleaners, etc. etc. etc. Radios, HiFi sets and much more. Opportunities like these may just not be as available or interesting to kids these days. Yes, I remember " industrial Arts " class in school, seems like that is a thing of the past too. Doing your own car repairs and tune-ups are not as easy as they used to be. Tune-Up ? why there is nothing to really " tune " any more. Most of it now is take it to the dealers. Independents are going out of business or retiring left and right, too little profit left any more. I guess I can consider myself fortunate that my parents put up with all of the junk I used to bring home and try to repair and learn about, they let me take my own career path in life. Maybe many kids today do not have that advantage.

Gordy

SlamDunk, what pity party?

I think by referencing the industrial arts programs, this is where it starts to find those students who are genetically wired. From there the union apprenticeship programs, or a craft oriented company to take the chance, and time to train them. What comes out as a quality craftsman is up to those teachers. There is some flaws in that chain. Sort of the no kid gets left behind syndrome, instead of get your s+*^ together or you will be left behind.

As far as owners making the decent wage...... They are taking all the risk of company ownership right?

If your a Union craftsman, and not satisfied with your wage then that is a union created issue not a company owner issue. Again non Union is a void in the wage base, but Union wages do help create some what of a floor for that wage.

As far as the college career path yes it is for some......not all. The cost is far beyond what one could phantom as a parent to save so their child does not end up with a diploma, and a mortgage before they even find a job. ....if they find a job in their field.

Rich_49

http://flopro.ning.com/video/the-tradesmen-making-an-art-of-work

njtommy

I've been in the Union for about 9 years now. In southern NJ UA 322. I worked Non union for 2 years as a helper with a company, but I took the opportunity and I've had no regrets at all. I've learned and seen a ton of different type of equipment. I truly love what I do.

Union scale is not bad money at all, but if you are a hard worker and a well rounded service tech most company's have no problem paying you above rate.

Our company have been looking for guys all summer. There are not many guys on the bench so to speak and the ones who are aren't worth the problems.

The biggest thing I've noticed is there are plenty of guys out there who would like to go Union, but it seems like most would have to take a big pay cut. Unless you can test in as journeymen.

I have no clue how you guys work in the city all the time. No way I could ever deal with that.

SlamDunk

Sure, an owner deserves the rewards for their risks. No argument from me on that point. But let's face it, unions are only in a small portion of the country. And, they are getting smaller. During recent economic downturns, community colleges pumped out HVAC techs & and truck drivers by the hundreds after factories shut down and people had to be retrained. That's affects the supply /demand thing. Too many people in any market will suppress wages. The expression "a dime a dozen" comes to mind. I can see why a business owner would want a large pool of qualified candidates but by the same token, I can also see why young people wouldn't want to be in a pool that is a dime a dozen.

Rich_49

The problem is education or the lack of it . The qualified candidates are not qualified .

njtommy

Yup College cranks them out and rapes them at the same time. Nothing like coming out of college and making $12 an hour with thousands of dollars in dept for students loans.
Nothing like setting up kids for failure.

The price of education is out of hand in America.