Best Of
Re: Riser, Header, Main pipe sizing
Thanks. The Utica can get us an extra $350 for Energy credit since it's over 83% efficient and was $800 cheaper then the WMC, while the WMC & Peerless were around 81-82% efficient. Not a big deal in the long run, I guess. Any other reccomendations that might be 83% efficient?Part of the struggle everyone is having on this thread is the fact that you seem to be doubting your decisions and waffleing back and forth on what you should do. You locked in on the WM and now, for a mear $350.00 in one time energy credits, you are wanting to buy a boiler (the Utica) that we've all told you has its own set of issues with those side riser tappings and the LWCO probe location. Even though it is also $800.00cheaper than the WM, I always say "you get what you pay for" The design of the two boilers is an apples/oranges comparison. Here are the facts:
The WMC EG75 only had one riser tapping, but at 3 in, that may be enough? Or is that tapping size irrelevant if we can up-size any of them to 4 inches anyway?
- The WM is the better, long term solution for you compared to the Utica.
- The WM EG75 does have two tappings
- The WM will be delivered broken down so as to be more manageable and not damage any panels/skins.
- A drop Header is, by far and away the better option for nice dry steam AND for more head room to connect mains.
- The Risers out of the boiler should be the full boiler tapping size
- The Header (Drop or conventional) should be at least one full size larger than the risers. If you want to go 2 sizes larger, that is even better.
- Per our prior post, now is the time to get that Bull Head Tee out of the equation and tie the two mains directly into the Header.
- If you haven't signed a contract with an installer, call one of the guys that have been recommended in this thread. If you have a contractor, get everything you've been advised to do here, in writing and in the contract.
You have to make a decision and move on to the next phase, ordering and installation.
Fred
Wildly off topic. Or is it?
I've just finished reading the complete NTSB report on the container ship collision with the Key Bridge in Baltimore.
Don't bother — it's long. But…
Turns out the root cause was that a signal wire was not fully inserted into a connector, creating an occasional loose connection which looked fine but wasn't.
Moral of the story for all and sundry. If you have unexplained intermittent failures in an electrical circuit — check all your connections! They may look fine, but… pull on them. Wiggle them. Look again.
Before you fire the parts cannon (or knock down a bridge?)
Re: Riser, Header, Main pipe sizing
Tell him to install a boiler.
Problem solved.
ChrisJ
Re: Odd ignition failure - temporary fixed by turning gas main off/on.
Could be moisture in the propane tank icing up the regulator. Propane starts out as liquid. When the pressure is reduced it flashes into a gas and acts just like a refrigerant and it boils off it can freeze any moisture in the pipe or regulators. It usually happens in the regulators as that is where the pressure drop is. Shutting of and turning on the gas maybe unsticking the regulator.
Its a guess but it is possible.
Re: Can’t figure out the banging noise in the radiator
If the condensate pipe from that radiator connects back to the steam main, steam is probably backfeeding up that pipe looking for the air vent. I ran into that situation many years ago:
The solution is to run the condensate pipe into the wet return, like I did, or install a water seal in it roughly three feet deep to block the backfeeding steam.
Re: Dielectric Union question
I used to work for a company that moved one of their PMs (who was previously a secretary and had absolutely no field experience) into a VP position so he was suddenly all about penny pinching. I was running a $25M remodel job in downtown Minneapolis where we had a dual temp system feeding fan coil units throughout the building and the 8" mains ran down the center with multiple 3" branches running down adjacent corridors to serve all the units. The plan didn't show any isolation valves on ANYTHING after the boiler room so I took it upon myself to add 3" butterflies on each branch at least, during the first floor portion. Mr fancy pants VP came through one day and tore me a new one for wasting money on those valves, and made it very clear that I was NOT to deviate from the plan again. Okay then, sorry for trying to help. Fast forward about 8 months, we're up to the 13th floor and one of the brickies tears off a live 2" hot water line on 4th (everything below was now occupied) with his forklift mast. Not a valve to be found anywhere, so they dumped about 3500 gallons of water through 4 floors of office space and caused millions of dollars in damage. Building owner and mason jointly sued my company for not having valves on each floor (rightfully so) and the VP clown had the audacity to blame it on me after he had time to alter the plans to show valves. I had screenshots in my iPad as well as an extra set of paper plans in my truck to prove that it wasn't my problem, but that was also my last day working there. Last I heard, they were filing for bankruptcy- all because of a couple thousand dollars worth of valves.
GroundUp
Re: Gorton vents is there a way to test them?
I just reviewed the other thread about your boiler. You mention that with the old boiler you had a main vent spitting so you plugged it and left it like that.
To be very, very clear. You should not have water in the vicinity of any vent with volume adequate to come out of said vent, it just shouldn't happen. If it does you have issues with the system somewhere. This entire thing sounds like pitch or sag issues, maybe even poor piping and now the new boiler which is most likely surging is amplifying those issues.
I'd speculate the vents are working just fine. Water hitting the vent cools it down and opens it back up.
I'm of the opinion you need to have the boiler skimmed again, and probably need to do it a few more times. After that, review the entire system and see what's going on. I agree with your contractor, you need main vents, it dramatically alters system performance in a good way.
KC_Jones
Re: Gorton vents is there a way to test them?
I've seen vents work after taking them off and dumping out the water and maybe boiling in vinegar, but not always. You need to find out how water is getting to the vents first. With a new boiler installed there are lots of possibilities although insufficient skimming is the most common. Don't worry about adding an additive (8-way) until skimming brings satisfactory performance. I look at additives as just optizing pH to minimize corrosion more than anything else.
Re: Buderus G115 Strangeness
What type of tubing is in floor?
Are you sure its O2 barrier? Is it Onex epdm tubing?
Are you sure the circulator(s) is running? Any chance to shoot the floor out for temp? Flir camera?
kcopp
Re: Navien NFB-200h combi temps for space heating and domestic hot water?
the bottom of the finish flooring will see the surface temperature of the subfloor material. So right over a transfer plate would be the highest expected temperature
Yes any floor covering adds some r-value and so the floor “panel” output needs to account for that.
Bottom line without the original design, or a reverse engineering, I would maybe start at 110 SWT, the coldest days is when you will make the fine tuning. There are cases where the radiant floor alone cannot cover the heat load of the room or space, and supplemental heat is needed.
Running the boiler on an outdoor reset curve will adjust and vary the supply temperature. This adds comfort and can reduce operating cost. On mild days maybe 100 covers the load, in the coldest days maybe it needs to ramp to 130?
82 surface temperature of the final flooring is a common limitation number you see in design manuals from various radiant manufacturers . Above that it becomes uncomfortably warm to bare feet. The sweaty foot syndrome 🤔
There are various opinions on how hot the bottom of the subfloor where the plates touch should be allowed to run. The plywood manufacturers have opinions on that number
It will be a fun learning experience to get it dialed in to your liking.
hot_rod