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Re: Sad
A tragedy, and although we don't know all the facts, probably preventable.
My condolences to the family.
I'm posting the home here, not to be disrespectful, but because many of us are visual thinkers and solve problems we can see.
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/357-Woodview-Ave-Spartanburg-SC-29306/11829154_zpid/
Instead of speculating on DIYers skills or lack thereof, I'd like to challenge the contractors and small business owners here:
Glenwood Fowler was 82. So born around 1942. 20 years old in 1962.
In 1962, could young Glenwood or his parents have called any contractor in Spartanberg, South Carolina? Or would they have been limited to contractors on their side of the tracks? Were there any contractors on their side of the tracks? There may be long standing reasons why Mr. Fowler and his family DIY. Reasons that a lot of us haven't experienced.
DIYers DIY for many different reasons. I DIY because I like to. I don't really care if some of you think I'm qualified or not. It's my house. Although Mr. Fowler and I had different means and backgrounds, I respect his family's right to DIY, whatever their reasons were. I'm saddened that it may have caused his death, and the death of his girlfriend.
Some here do an outstanding job of sharing their knowledge. For the rest of us, let's try harder to share our knowledge.
My condolences to the family.
I'm posting the home here, not to be disrespectful, but because many of us are visual thinkers and solve problems we can see.
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/357-Woodview-Ave-Spartanburg-SC-29306/11829154_zpid/
Instead of speculating on DIYers skills or lack thereof, I'd like to challenge the contractors and small business owners here:
- Would you service this home?
- Would you service a home in a community of color?
- Would you hire (and mentor) a young unskilled man from this community?
- Would you donate work pro-bono to a family in need?
Glenwood Fowler was 82. So born around 1942. 20 years old in 1962.
In 1962, could young Glenwood or his parents have called any contractor in Spartanberg, South Carolina? Or would they have been limited to contractors on their side of the tracks? Were there any contractors on their side of the tracks? There may be long standing reasons why Mr. Fowler and his family DIY. Reasons that a lot of us haven't experienced.
DIYers DIY for many different reasons. I DIY because I like to. I don't really care if some of you think I'm qualified or not. It's my house. Although Mr. Fowler and I had different means and backgrounds, I respect his family's right to DIY, whatever their reasons were. I'm saddened that it may have caused his death, and the death of his girlfriend.
Some here do an outstanding job of sharing their knowledge. For the rest of us, let's try harder to share our knowledge.
WMno57
4
Re: How Do I Connect This Wire?
Thank you for your wiring posts. They are most insightful. I will share that in my experience with
Thank you for your posts. They are most insightful. I will share my experience with
the NEST thermostats. I find it essential to have the NEST thermostat operate a dry contact isolation relay for the control of the "T-T" connection on a host of modern wall hung boilers that use electronic control boards rather than mechanical relays for their operation. The NEST as well as most electronic thermostats use triacs for switching power to operate the heat source. Triacs are not the same as a dry contact old style mercury or bimetal thermostat. Triacs allow a trace amount of "bleed current" to pass which will often fool an electronic control that is simply looking for voltage or continuity of a contact closure to initiate a heating cycle. You cannot simply walk away from these thermostats presuming they are set up properly until you witness the system cycling on and off with the thermostat demand.
A second issue I have discovered is that many electronic / hydronic thermostats will employ what I believe is called pulse width modulation (PWM), as they near their setpoint. This mode of operation begins cycling the thermostat on and off as it nears the setpoint. Presumably to prevent a boiler from overheating a radiant zone. I find that the cycling PWM thermostat will interfere with outdoor reset control temperatures and will often not allow the thermostat to attain its temperature setting. The constant on/off cycling induced by PWM will cause a low mass wall hung boiler or geothermal hydronic system to cycle repeatedly yet never attain the set temperature. The only solution to this issue is to change thermostats or closely study the thermostat installation manual prior to ordering a hydronic thermostat to determine if it is using PWM and if so, is there a way to change the program to omit this function when using outdoor reset for operation efficiency.
Thank you for your posts. They are most insightful. I will share my experience with
the NEST thermostats. I find it essential to have the NEST thermostat operate a dry contact isolation relay for the control of the "T-T" connection on a host of modern wall hung boilers that use electronic control boards rather than mechanical relays for their operation. The NEST as well as most electronic thermostats use triacs for switching power to operate the heat source. Triacs are not the same as a dry contact old style mercury or bimetal thermostat. Triacs allow a trace amount of "bleed current" to pass which will often fool an electronic control that is simply looking for voltage or continuity of a contact closure to initiate a heating cycle. You cannot simply walk away from these thermostats presuming they are set up properly until you witness the system cycling on and off with the thermostat demand.
A second issue I have discovered is that many electronic / hydronic thermostats will employ what I believe is called pulse width modulation (PWM), as they near their setpoint. This mode of operation begins cycling the thermostat on and off as it nears the setpoint. Presumably to prevent a boiler from overheating a radiant zone. I find that the cycling PWM thermostat will interfere with outdoor reset control temperatures and will often not allow the thermostat to attain its temperature setting. The constant on/off cycling induced by PWM will cause a low mass wall hung boiler or geothermal hydronic system to cycle repeatedly yet never attain the set temperature. The only solution to this issue is to change thermostats or closely study the thermostat installation manual prior to ordering a hydronic thermostat to determine if it is using PWM and if so, is there a way to change the program to omit this function when using outdoor reset for operation efficiency.
Geosman
2
Re: Timken Silent Automatic Boiler
@Bob6265 Insist that the contractor replace the near boiler piping with threaded steel pipe. No copper. Insist that the contractor size and run the pipes to at least the minimum as shown in the boiler manufacturers manual. Get out your pen and write this into the contract. Have the contractor initial this. Hold back 50% of the money until the job is done to at least the minimum standard as described in the installation manual.
Ask him if he can cut and thread steel pipe.
Ask him if he can cut and thread steel pipe.
WMno57
4
Re: Another Solar Myth Bites the Dust
Excellent article Larry.
Thank you for your research and ongoing promotion of THE most efficient system in the World, that being solar thermal.
As you know, I've been involved in solar thermal since before it was even on the DOE's radar. I have a 2 panels system on my mountain home that heats the home when we aren't there, and preheats the DHW when we are there. I keep the house at 40 degrees F when we are away, so all the radiant (walls, floors ceiling) surfaces are at at around 40 degrees F when the system fires, keeping the fluids below 70 degrees F, thereby maintaining solar efficiencies that are WAY high.
I wanted to pop in here, and (once again) talk about the potential that most hydronic snow/ice melt (SIM) contractors are overlooking that is staring them right in the face. That being the possibility of turning their SIM system into a large surface area high and ultra high efficiency solar collector.
During non SIM operations, there is a LOT of free energy falling onto this surface that could be put to use, either as a simple DHW preheat, heating pools/spas, and even space heating.
My concept is one of a two stage design. 1st stage would be a semi direct exchange that transfers the solar heated glycol into a storage tank with a heat exchanger for DHW preheat. When the delta T drops to the conventional "off' point, the 2nd stage kicks in.
2nd stage slows the circulation on the source (SIM) side, and directs this low grade heat into a water to water heat pump. These heat pumps would be running at around 200 to 300% efficient (COP of 2 or 3, depending). During the warmer summer months, the system would actually harvest what I refer to as "Ambient Energy", that being sensible energy that is not directly related to the solar gain. Remember, thermal energy flows from hot to cold. These systems make a lot of sense wherever there is a constant (annual) demand for DHW, which includes residential, commercial etc.
In commercial applications, like restaurants, laundries and other high hot water demand situations, I strongly believe that we could collect more energy for water heating, than they system would use in its SIM role. I've monitored some SIM systems during the summer months, and have seen slab temperatures approaching 140 degrees F. Granted, this is a stagnated condition, but the physics for extraction are there. Typical SIM systems have 5/8" PEX installed at 9" O.C., thereby making it very conducive to extracting all this free energy. When I was the Director of the RPA, I was at a code hearing conference, sitting next to a young lady. I asked her what her interest were in code development. She told me she worked for The Sierra Club, and that she was there to recommend that all SIM systems be outlawed due to the egregious waste of a precious natural resource. I told her of my reverse solar concept, and she said that she didn't realize that it was even a potential, got up and left the meeting without making her pitch. I guess what I am trying to say here, is that the environmental lobby has SIM in their gun sights, and that we as hydronic contractors had better be proactive in our applications, and start thinking outside the box, or the government and the enviro lobby will take that box (SIM) away.
These same slabs can also work as a very efficient heat rejection system due to night sky re-radiation. I've seen my solar thermal panels sub cool below ambient as much as 20 degrees under clear night sky conditions. I could use that in my mountain home for cooling from the radiant ceilings, if needed, without even firing a compressor.
Again, thank you for your continuing efforts to promote what the good Lord gives us for free, that we need to utilize to a greater degree, that being solar thermal. Stay well my friend.
ME
Thank you for your research and ongoing promotion of THE most efficient system in the World, that being solar thermal.
As you know, I've been involved in solar thermal since before it was even on the DOE's radar. I have a 2 panels system on my mountain home that heats the home when we aren't there, and preheats the DHW when we are there. I keep the house at 40 degrees F when we are away, so all the radiant (walls, floors ceiling) surfaces are at at around 40 degrees F when the system fires, keeping the fluids below 70 degrees F, thereby maintaining solar efficiencies that are WAY high.
I wanted to pop in here, and (once again) talk about the potential that most hydronic snow/ice melt (SIM) contractors are overlooking that is staring them right in the face. That being the possibility of turning their SIM system into a large surface area high and ultra high efficiency solar collector.
During non SIM operations, there is a LOT of free energy falling onto this surface that could be put to use, either as a simple DHW preheat, heating pools/spas, and even space heating.
My concept is one of a two stage design. 1st stage would be a semi direct exchange that transfers the solar heated glycol into a storage tank with a heat exchanger for DHW preheat. When the delta T drops to the conventional "off' point, the 2nd stage kicks in.
2nd stage slows the circulation on the source (SIM) side, and directs this low grade heat into a water to water heat pump. These heat pumps would be running at around 200 to 300% efficient (COP of 2 or 3, depending). During the warmer summer months, the system would actually harvest what I refer to as "Ambient Energy", that being sensible energy that is not directly related to the solar gain. Remember, thermal energy flows from hot to cold. These systems make a lot of sense wherever there is a constant (annual) demand for DHW, which includes residential, commercial etc.
In commercial applications, like restaurants, laundries and other high hot water demand situations, I strongly believe that we could collect more energy for water heating, than they system would use in its SIM role. I've monitored some SIM systems during the summer months, and have seen slab temperatures approaching 140 degrees F. Granted, this is a stagnated condition, but the physics for extraction are there. Typical SIM systems have 5/8" PEX installed at 9" O.C., thereby making it very conducive to extracting all this free energy. When I was the Director of the RPA, I was at a code hearing conference, sitting next to a young lady. I asked her what her interest were in code development. She told me she worked for The Sierra Club, and that she was there to recommend that all SIM systems be outlawed due to the egregious waste of a precious natural resource. I told her of my reverse solar concept, and she said that she didn't realize that it was even a potential, got up and left the meeting without making her pitch. I guess what I am trying to say here, is that the environmental lobby has SIM in their gun sights, and that we as hydronic contractors had better be proactive in our applications, and start thinking outside the box, or the government and the enviro lobby will take that box (SIM) away.
These same slabs can also work as a very efficient heat rejection system due to night sky re-radiation. I've seen my solar thermal panels sub cool below ambient as much as 20 degrees under clear night sky conditions. I could use that in my mountain home for cooling from the radiant ceilings, if needed, without even firing a compressor.
Again, thank you for your continuing efforts to promote what the good Lord gives us for free, that we need to utilize to a greater degree, that being solar thermal. Stay well my friend.
ME
Re: Boiler LWC activates quickly
The boiler is not surging
how do you know? It looks like it's surging to me, if you see the waterline drop quickly during a call for heat. There's nowhere else the water could be going.
I am not sure what the “water good” means, but the water is clean as I did drain the boiler twice.
It could still have oils floating on it. Skimming is how you would remove those and be sure it's clean.
Re: Beckett AFG Efficiency Testing + Boiler sooting issue
Short answer - no.
I suppose a more general question is whether, given the numbers I've seen to date, I can make adjustments to the airboot, use a combination of smoke test+stack temp, and be reasonably confident that the changes I'm making to increase combustion air aren't having a significant impact in other areas? Probably a pipe dream but figured I'd ask.
Long answer is that if you can identify the shutter setting that will provide a 1 indication and a 0 indication on your Bacharach smoke tester, you can set your shutter to produce between 0 and 1 smoke and be reasonably close to good combustion. Remove the baffle and check your smoke, if you're at a trace (1ish), you might be where the tech left it.
What you don't want is to soot it up with too high a number (2 or over) or run it too lean by going past (below) where the zero smoke is.
I don't know this, but it's possible the baffle may not change the combustion numbers significantly or at all.
MaxMercy
1
Re: Help with GPM, maybe? (newbie/ DIY)
Why do you want it to heat up faster? A slab is a huge thermal mass- you should be setting it at a given temp and leaving it alone for the most part. If you want to change temp regularly, a different heating method is a much better option than trying to fluctuate the whole slab. 105-65= 40 degree delta with a 1.7 GPM flow rate so you're getting approximately 34,000 BTU/hr into the space as-is, which should be more than enough to keep it heated on a design day (approximately 30 BTU/sq ft). You could get more BTU in by raising the average water temp, which can often be achieved by raising the flow rate as you've stated. The question of "why?" remains though.
GroundUp
1
Re: Multiple Issues
Copper near boiler piping may be the incorrect size. You will need to remove the insulation on the copper pipes only, and take more pictures. The original installer was not a Steam Boiler Installer, otherwise that copper pipe would actually be Steel pipe with iron fittings.
The fact that you mentioned overfilling leads to another problem
The fact that you mentioned overfilling leads to another problem
Re: Beckett AFG Efficiency Testing + Boiler sooting issue
If you look at the Beckett AFG specs you posted above, the spec'd 0.50 nozzle is supposed to be run at 150 psi, which presumably results in the actual 0.60 gph input rate.
Regarding the nozzle, the unit shipped with a 0.50x45W, and it is also indicated in the manual (picture a few posts back), despite it being rated at .60-GPH in both the literature and by the sticker. I have no idea why this is...
Remember that the nominal nozzle gph is based on 100 psi.
jesmed1
2