Welcome! Here are the website rules, as well as some tips for using this forum.
Need to contact us? Visit https://heatinghelp.com/contact-us/.
Click here to Find a Contractor in your area.
If our community has helped you, please consider making a contribution to support this website. Thanks!
Best Of
Re: still unclear on appliance draft classification (test in 2 weeks)
Any thermosyphon direct vent fireplace does not have means for draft control. On vertical applications, an orifice plate may need to be installed to restrict the flow so high velocity gases do not disturb the secondary air feeding a standing or intermittent pilot.
A barometric damper is the classic draft control
On very large boilers, there are complex systems that measure stack gases, draft, etc. and meter the intake air (O2 trim). However, as with most large boilers, they use dampers, which are flow controls- not pressure controls.
On CAT IV condensing gas appliances, the intake air may exceed the requirements, resulting in lower efficiency. In such cases, a metering valve may have to be installed immediately upstream of the appliance balanced using combustion analysis. However, again this is a flow control as the unit is exhausting via a power venter. In the sense a power venter can modulate with the firing rate with some units, yes, it could be considered a 'draft control' albeit positive vent pressure. Natural draft is a negative pressure differential With Respect To the Combustion Appliance Zone. Technically, the lighter density of stack gases are forced up the chimney by the denser, cooler CAZ air but the stack pressure remains negative.
Gimmicks like the Thermiser affect the stack velocity by creating a buffer tank, which slows the gases exiting the combustion chamber resulting in a longer residence time (time, temp., turbulence). Then, the orifice plate (vena contracta) causes the effluent velocity to rapidly increase resulting in a quick evacuation of the secondary chamber. The problem with orifice plates is eddies immediately downstream. This creates a higher static pressure, which can negate the positive effect of higher exit velocity. ASHRAE calls for an optimum natural draft velocity of about 0.8 meters per second.
Regarding changing flue diameter as a means of control, consider your blood vessels. When you get scared, epinephrine (Adrenalin) and norepinephrine cause the smooth muscle of the vessels to constrict. This results in a flow restriction to the affected area while the back pressure between the area of peripheral vasoconstriction and the heart sees a rise in blood pressure. This is due both to the backpressure and to an increase in heart rate, force and automaticity by the catecholamines. If your feet get cold, put out the cigarette and put on a hat. As the blood in your head warms, the catecholamines with be stopped allowing vasodilation. Your skin warms and gets red again while the peripheral perfusion pressure drops. We don't have vents and chimneys that can modulate like the smooth muscle of arteries, arterioles and capillaries. If we did, THAT could be considered both a 'draft' and 'flow' control.
A barometric damper is the classic draft control
On very large boilers, there are complex systems that measure stack gases, draft, etc. and meter the intake air (O2 trim). However, as with most large boilers, they use dampers, which are flow controls- not pressure controls.
On CAT IV condensing gas appliances, the intake air may exceed the requirements, resulting in lower efficiency. In such cases, a metering valve may have to be installed immediately upstream of the appliance balanced using combustion analysis. However, again this is a flow control as the unit is exhausting via a power venter. In the sense a power venter can modulate with the firing rate with some units, yes, it could be considered a 'draft control' albeit positive vent pressure. Natural draft is a negative pressure differential With Respect To the Combustion Appliance Zone. Technically, the lighter density of stack gases are forced up the chimney by the denser, cooler CAZ air but the stack pressure remains negative.
Gimmicks like the Thermiser affect the stack velocity by creating a buffer tank, which slows the gases exiting the combustion chamber resulting in a longer residence time (time, temp., turbulence). Then, the orifice plate (vena contracta) causes the effluent velocity to rapidly increase resulting in a quick evacuation of the secondary chamber. The problem with orifice plates is eddies immediately downstream. This creates a higher static pressure, which can negate the positive effect of higher exit velocity. ASHRAE calls for an optimum natural draft velocity of about 0.8 meters per second.
Regarding changing flue diameter as a means of control, consider your blood vessels. When you get scared, epinephrine (Adrenalin) and norepinephrine cause the smooth muscle of the vessels to constrict. This results in a flow restriction to the affected area while the back pressure between the area of peripheral vasoconstriction and the heart sees a rise in blood pressure. This is due both to the backpressure and to an increase in heart rate, force and automaticity by the catecholamines. If your feet get cold, put out the cigarette and put on a hat. As the blood in your head warms, the catecholamines with be stopped allowing vasodilation. Your skin warms and gets red again while the peripheral perfusion pressure drops. We don't have vents and chimneys that can modulate like the smooth muscle of arteries, arterioles and capillaries. If we did, THAT could be considered both a 'draft' and 'flow' control.
Re: Problem with short-cycling, low water, and leaks
That picture shows two returns tied together above the boiler waterline. Returns have to be tied together BELOW the water line. The old boiler was much larger and probably had a higher waterline.
Drop that line down so it's well under the waterline and them do a few skimming's to get rid of any water contamination and see if that calms things down.
Bob
Drop that line down so it's well under the waterline and them do a few skimming's to get rid of any water contamination and see if that calms things down.
Bob
BobC
3
Re: Heat Pump Minimum Ambient To Protect Compressor
The compressor really doesn’t care what temperature it is. It does care that the oil is warm. Make sure the crankcase heater is operating. How much heat you’ll get below 30 depends on the equipment.
pecmsg
2
Re: is a power draft-assisted burner considered a "appliance with a draft control device"?
To 'control' draft, you must be able to regulate it up or down. Draft is a pressure differential- not flow. I always use the term 'draft pressure' to differentiate it from mass flow. A blower causes mass flow. On an inducer, the net effect is a negative pressure in the combustion chamber to make room for the expanding byproducts of combustion and excess air while drawing in combustion air. Once heat creates natural draft, its role is negligible but it does not 'control' the draft. Likewise, a draft hood allows dilution air, which inhibits draft pressure but it does not 'control' it. It kills the draft at standby, at low fire or high fire but at a relatively fixed rate. The only variable is how much air gets entrained through the fixed orifice of the net free area of the hood by the Bernoulli Effect, which shoots the flue gases up the stack where draft pressure carries them to the atmosphere--unless there is a negative pressure differential in the CAZ, in which case the hood can provide a pathway for spillage or backdrafting.
You have natural draft or gravity venting or atmospheric venting, then you have induced draft as with 80% furnaces then forced draft with power venters.
You have natural draft or gravity venting or atmospheric venting, then you have induced draft as with 80% furnaces then forced draft with power venters.
Re: Problem with short-cycling, low water, and leaks
Well that's different. Usually the problem we see is that the boiler is way too big...
There are those who will contend that even a boiler that significantly undersize can be made to work. I am not among them. Even if you were to insulate all the piping -- which you can't do unless all the risers are exposed as well as the basement -- you are sufficiently far undersized that it just won't be satisfactory. Balancing will be almost impossible, to start with.
In your plumber's defence, at least a little, the assumption these days with heating systems is that you can get away with a smaller boiler since people will have put in storm windows and better insulation. And this is true for hot water heat or scorched air. It is NOT true for steam.
So step one -- you are going to need a bigger boiler, correctly sized to the radiation.
That, however, is unlikely to be a cause of short cycling, even when it appears to be caused by dropping water levels. Yes, the water will drop when the boiler fires. It should not -- even in big systems with slow returns, drop more than a couple of inches. That it is dropping enough strongly suggests that there is something seriously amiss with the near boiler piping. That is using so much water, and not overfilling (that would be slow returns) makes me wonder if there is something else amiss going on. That amount of water loss without evidence of very high humidity in your living spaces suggests that there may be a leak somewhere.
There are those who will contend that even a boiler that significantly undersize can be made to work. I am not among them. Even if you were to insulate all the piping -- which you can't do unless all the risers are exposed as well as the basement -- you are sufficiently far undersized that it just won't be satisfactory. Balancing will be almost impossible, to start with.
In your plumber's defence, at least a little, the assumption these days with heating systems is that you can get away with a smaller boiler since people will have put in storm windows and better insulation. And this is true for hot water heat or scorched air. It is NOT true for steam.
So step one -- you are going to need a bigger boiler, correctly sized to the radiation.
That, however, is unlikely to be a cause of short cycling, even when it appears to be caused by dropping water levels. Yes, the water will drop when the boiler fires. It should not -- even in big systems with slow returns, drop more than a couple of inches. That it is dropping enough strongly suggests that there is something seriously amiss with the near boiler piping. That is using so much water, and not overfilling (that would be slow returns) makes me wonder if there is something else amiss going on. That amount of water loss without evidence of very high humidity in your living spaces suggests that there may be a leak somewhere.
Re: Does gas need to be turned off on furnace
It’s just blowing cold air while still running for a long time, would that cause it to blow /leak gas? And now that the system is off, could it be leaking gas or do we need to turn gas off. We do not smell any gas.
Re: Dope & tape?
Hi, Just to muddy the conversation, I should throw in that the "rules" change when using plastic fittings, or plastic to metal. For example, tape on a male threaded plastic fitting, going with metal female threads, seems to shrink the male threads down and eventually leak. Heat speeds this up.
When I use a metal male fitting with a plastic female, I like to put a hose clamp around the female fitting before tightening things together. Lots to pay attention to in making durable connections. 
Yours, Larry
Yours, Larry
Re: Bevel steam trap
Might be easier to replace it with a normal radiator trap...If possible, since that's on the end of a steam main, I'd use an F&T trap. Also, those bushings in the run of the tee before the pipe turns down to the trap are causing a water pocket, which would cause banging. That needs to be corrected when the trap is replaced.
Re: Anyone ever seen this style steam rad?
@SKYPAINTER
One should think about the rebound effect of optimisation.
read about the Jevons paradox and rebound effect:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebound_effect_(conservation)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazzoom–Brookes_postulate
I'll play devils advocate here. We Americans preach to one another about the need for high efficient everything, from our electric appliances, automobiles and most especially our heating/cooling systems.
One should think about the rebound effect of optimisation.
read about the Jevons paradox and rebound effect:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebound_effect_(conservation)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazzoom–Brookes_postulate
2
Re: Skunk smell...google search says it could be a refrigerant leak. Is methyl mercaptan in refrigerant?
You probably just have a skunk. I am 99% sure they don't add that to any refrigerant in the US, because it will corrode the AC system. Possibly its used in other places in the world? Possibly added for use in industrial applications? Never heard of it in residential refrigerant, though it is added to give an odor to fuel, like propane etc. Even refrigerant grade propane doesn't get this additive as it will destroy the AC system. Possibly someone else can chime in to say otherwise, I'd like to see more info if thats the case. Many outlets report incorrectly about HVAC issues so it wouldn't surprise me if they got this one wrong, especially since neither can name a single refrigerant that has this added.
1


