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Re: New steam heating retrofit method
"The fact that I struggle to find good info about a very very specific question (how/do dynamic orifice traps work in low pressure steam vacuum systems as opposed to non-vacuum systems?) just so happens to also slot in nicely here!"
Ok, let's get rid of one thing here. Orifices do not sacrifice efficiency. What they do do is limit the volume of flow at a given pressure differential between the feed side and the downstream side. If the orifice diameter is correct for the pressure differential, just enough steam will enter the radiator to condense fully in the radiator, leaving only condensate to pass. If the pressure differential is less, the steam flow will be less, of course, and the heat output somewhat reduced. If it's greater, not all the steam will condense and you will get steam in the returns.
Now. You mention vacuum vs. non-vacuum systems. This is where things get interesting. First off here, if you are talking about vacuum assisted returns, but with "normal" supply pressures, the pressure differential up there is thrown way off and, without traps, the system will work poorly if at all. There are a few ways to create such systems, but the most obvious -- and most efficient -- is to have some of the condensing, at least, taking place at relatively low temperatures. This can, of course, be arranged in various ways, such as preheating the feed for domestic hot water. In power boilers it is done by air or water cooled condensers, and the efficiency loss there is more than offset by the power gain across the turbine or engine.
However, if you are talking about systems where the entire system is operating at less than atmospheric pressure, the system will work and work well, but the pressure differential between the supply side and the radiator side must be less. Why? Because at the lower radiator pressure the radiator condensing capability is reduced dues to the lower boiling point, and thus less steam can be allowed to enter the radiator. Many times when people talk about operating a residential or other heating system in a vacuum, they are dealing with a system which operates at sub atmospheric pressure at a low firing rate at the boiler. This was actually quite common in the days of coal fired boilers, and it worked well -- many vapour systems were equipped with vents which closed against a vacuum, and thus when the firing rate dropped the system as a whole would drop into a vacuum -- in principle extracting more heat from the low (or dying) fire..
The problem with running any vacuum assisted or sub-atmospheric system is, of course, the same as running low pressures in any heat exchange system which depends on evaporation and condensation cycles to transfer heat: elimination of non-condensable gas in the system and keeping it out. In a normal low pressure heating system, this is done by means of the vents. No problem. In sub-atmospheric systems, using a vacuum pump, water vapour must be kept out of the pump (or the water loss accepted) -- which means a low temperature condenser or that the system is vacuum tight.
Ok, let's get rid of one thing here. Orifices do not sacrifice efficiency. What they do do is limit the volume of flow at a given pressure differential between the feed side and the downstream side. If the orifice diameter is correct for the pressure differential, just enough steam will enter the radiator to condense fully in the radiator, leaving only condensate to pass. If the pressure differential is less, the steam flow will be less, of course, and the heat output somewhat reduced. If it's greater, not all the steam will condense and you will get steam in the returns.
Now. You mention vacuum vs. non-vacuum systems. This is where things get interesting. First off here, if you are talking about vacuum assisted returns, but with "normal" supply pressures, the pressure differential up there is thrown way off and, without traps, the system will work poorly if at all. There are a few ways to create such systems, but the most obvious -- and most efficient -- is to have some of the condensing, at least, taking place at relatively low temperatures. This can, of course, be arranged in various ways, such as preheating the feed for domestic hot water. In power boilers it is done by air or water cooled condensers, and the efficiency loss there is more than offset by the power gain across the turbine or engine.
However, if you are talking about systems where the entire system is operating at less than atmospheric pressure, the system will work and work well, but the pressure differential between the supply side and the radiator side must be less. Why? Because at the lower radiator pressure the radiator condensing capability is reduced dues to the lower boiling point, and thus less steam can be allowed to enter the radiator. Many times when people talk about operating a residential or other heating system in a vacuum, they are dealing with a system which operates at sub atmospheric pressure at a low firing rate at the boiler. This was actually quite common in the days of coal fired boilers, and it worked well -- many vapour systems were equipped with vents which closed against a vacuum, and thus when the firing rate dropped the system as a whole would drop into a vacuum -- in principle extracting more heat from the low (or dying) fire..
The problem with running any vacuum assisted or sub-atmospheric system is, of course, the same as running low pressures in any heat exchange system which depends on evaporation and condensation cycles to transfer heat: elimination of non-condensable gas in the system and keeping it out. In a normal low pressure heating system, this is done by means of the vents. No problem. In sub-atmospheric systems, using a vacuum pump, water vapour must be kept out of the pump (or the water loss accepted) -- which means a low temperature condenser or that the system is vacuum tight.
Re: New steam heating retrofit method
@ariccioyou want to regulate the flow of steam entering the radiator, not restrict the flow of air and Condensate exiting the radiator.
A packless orifice supply valve makes balancing a 2 pipe steam system simple.
By throttling the supply you can deliver just enough steam that the the radiator condenses all the steam before the last section heats.
Steam trap never closes because steam never reaches the trap element. Therefore no steam can make it to the dry return.
A steam trap to me, should be looked at more like an insurance policy, in the event someone changes the adjustments to the supply valve, the pressuretrol malfunctions, for whatever reason, the heating cycle is excessively long, ect...
Adding a vacuum pump does decrease pickup losses by lowering the pressure, water boils faster and fills the system faster.
After the system is filled, the vac pump turns off and a natural vacuum forms due to the condensing steam.
At the end of the heat cycle, the burner turns off, a Solenoid valve isolates the vacuum, Preventing air from being pulled back in, the steam condenses, but more importantly, condenses faster in radiators that are in colder areas of the building. Any steam being produced thanks the the natural vacuum lowering the pressure, will be drawn towards the coldest spots in the system, making a naturally balanced heating system, without a ton of thermostatic controls.
A packless orifice supply valve makes balancing a 2 pipe steam system simple.
By throttling the supply you can deliver just enough steam that the the radiator condenses all the steam before the last section heats.
Steam trap never closes because steam never reaches the trap element. Therefore no steam can make it to the dry return.
A steam trap to me, should be looked at more like an insurance policy, in the event someone changes the adjustments to the supply valve, the pressuretrol malfunctions, for whatever reason, the heating cycle is excessively long, ect...
Adding a vacuum pump does decrease pickup losses by lowering the pressure, water boils faster and fills the system faster.
After the system is filled, the vac pump turns off and a natural vacuum forms due to the condensing steam.
At the end of the heat cycle, the burner turns off, a Solenoid valve isolates the vacuum, Preventing air from being pulled back in, the steam condenses, but more importantly, condenses faster in radiators that are in colder areas of the building. Any steam being produced thanks the the natural vacuum lowering the pressure, will be drawn towards the coldest spots in the system, making a naturally balanced heating system, without a ton of thermostatic controls.
Re: Connecting Radiator to Copper Supply/Return Lines - What adapters?
Couldn't you use it for one side if you moved the radiator over? If centering for aesthetics I can understand.
The male adapter you are looking for it https://www.amazon.com/Everflow-FCMA0012-5-Adapter-Fitting-Connections/dp/B016Y8MS0G
It will be labeled as FTG (fitting) x Male Adapter. or male sweat
If you have 1/2" connections on the rad, assuming european style?
They usually have valve sets straight/angle for your brand like
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Runtal-VALVE-ST-SET-Standard-Straight-Shut-Off-Valve-Set-for-All-Models
The male adapter you are looking for it https://www.amazon.com/Everflow-FCMA0012-5-Adapter-Fitting-Connections/dp/B016Y8MS0G
It will be labeled as FTG (fitting) x Male Adapter. or male sweat
If you have 1/2" connections on the rad, assuming european style?
They usually have valve sets straight/angle for your brand like
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Runtal-VALVE-ST-SET-Standard-Straight-Shut-Off-Valve-Set-for-All-Models
dko
1
Re: Connecting Radiator to Copper Supply/Return Lines - What adapters?
Search radiator union elbow
https://www.zoro.com/legend-valve-12-s-438-sweat-union-elbow-110-165/i/G3042386
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Bluefin-RVES075-3-4-CXC-x-Male-Union-Brass-Radiator-Union-Elbow
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Bluefin-RVE050-1-2-FIP-x-Male-Union-Radiator-Union-Elbow (put a male adapter)
1/2" isn't too common, mostly ran in 3/4". you'll be able to find the 1/2" in sweat online
Just put a male adapter, don't need brass nipple.
https://www.zoro.com/legend-valve-12-s-438-sweat-union-elbow-110-165/i/G3042386
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Bluefin-RVES075-3-4-CXC-x-Male-Union-Brass-Radiator-Union-Elbow
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Bluefin-RVE050-1-2-FIP-x-Male-Union-Radiator-Union-Elbow (put a male adapter)
1/2" isn't too common, mostly ran in 3/4". you'll be able to find the 1/2" in sweat online
Just put a male adapter, don't need brass nipple.
dko
1
Re: Connecting Radiator to Copper Supply/Return Lines - What adapters?
A common 1/2" copper to male adapter is male NPT, by copper hub.
Both male and female copper adapters are also available as street versions. meaning the copper sweat end goes into a fitting instead of over the tube.
You can also find ell versions of copper to male adapters. They are rare but street copper ells X npt male or female are also out there.
The bottom left female fitting kinda looks like a street version in your pic.
I think copper press fittings are also available in standard and street versions, for NPT transitions.
I'd look for the least amount of threaded connection solution.
Both male and female copper adapters are also available as street versions. meaning the copper sweat end goes into a fitting instead of over the tube.
You can also find ell versions of copper to male adapters. They are rare but street copper ells X npt male or female are also out there.
The bottom left female fitting kinda looks like a street version in your pic.
I think copper press fittings are also available in standard and street versions, for NPT transitions.
I'd look for the least amount of threaded connection solution.
hot_rod
1
Extreme Left Jaw Pain leads to many things.....and there is more!
This is to point out a little known symptom of bad problem ahead.
Two weeks ago at 2 AM I was awaken by extreme left jaw pain, some left shoulder and minor left chest pain. IIRC, BP pushing 200 PSI.
We go to the local hospital 10 miles away. Within 30 minutes the Life Flight Helio is enroute. Get a 100 mile ride in 45 minutes.
Triple heart by-pass the next day.
Come home 5 days later.
I have had jaw pain occasionally when walking some distance and never thought much of it.
Was on no meds at all, good BP and quit smoking about 30 years ago.
But overweight and gaining as I do little real work lately and probably little in the future.
So just throwing this out as an additional warning sign that is seldom mentioned.
Two weeks ago at 2 AM I was awaken by extreme left jaw pain, some left shoulder and minor left chest pain. IIRC, BP pushing 200 PSI.
We go to the local hospital 10 miles away. Within 30 minutes the Life Flight Helio is enroute. Get a 100 mile ride in 45 minutes.
Triple heart by-pass the next day.
Come home 5 days later.
I have had jaw pain occasionally when walking some distance and never thought much of it.
Was on no meds at all, good BP and quit smoking about 30 years ago.
But overweight and gaining as I do little real work lately and probably little in the future.
So just throwing this out as an additional warning sign that is seldom mentioned.
JUGHNE
15
Re: Extreme Left Jaw Pain leads to many things.....and there is more!
Amazing how quickly the medical profession can respond to serious conditions like this. Good news you are here to talk about it.
hot_rod
2
Re: Extreme Left Jaw Pain leads to many things.....and there is more!
Oh boy that's scary, Glad you got to it in time.
Grallert
1