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Re: Navien - Would you?!?
I had one of their tankless water heater installed in my house with a recalculation loop. No issues in 5 years. Pretty easy install. Put on in at a commercial kitchen as a booster heater at the end of a large building loop that was only at 120F. Only issue was that return water had to be less than 90F or it faulted out on I assume high flue temp. Ran fine after a mixing valve was installed.
But I think in the end, you are better off with a Lochinvar or maybe just stick with a good WM or Burnham with indirect tank and realize that when you factor in the 4-5% lower efficiency but consider the cost savings and lifespan of the equipment, in the end, you are money ahead. Mod-cons make more sense in new construction or where you have limited space or have venting issues. Another might be wide swings in demand.
Remember a good cast iron boiler can hit 85-87% efficiency with minimal electrical consumption when installed right. A mod con installed wrong or in the wrong situation might only get 88-92% efficiency and require more electricity for the inducer as well. You need return water temps under 110F to get much out of a mod-con to justify it's short lifespan.
But I think in the end, you are better off with a Lochinvar or maybe just stick with a good WM or Burnham with indirect tank and realize that when you factor in the 4-5% lower efficiency but consider the cost savings and lifespan of the equipment, in the end, you are money ahead. Mod-cons make more sense in new construction or where you have limited space or have venting issues. Another might be wide swings in demand.
Remember a good cast iron boiler can hit 85-87% efficiency with minimal electrical consumption when installed right. A mod con installed wrong or in the wrong situation might only get 88-92% efficiency and require more electricity for the inducer as well. You need return water temps under 110F to get much out of a mod-con to justify it's short lifespan.
Re: Measuring Liquid Nitrogen
> @ChrisJ said:That's because @chrisj can't answer it, so he assumes no one else can.
> I think it's clear no one on this forum knows what the standard practice is when measuring a tank full of liquid nitrogen.
>
>
>
>
> Though I suspect @EBEBRATT-Ed was right, there's no real way to tell how full a tank is from a pressure gauge. You either need a scale or a float, similar to a LPG tank. Pressure is going to change with ambient conditions and not so much with the level as long as there's some liquid in the tank.
>
> Either way, if you're trying to dispute a delivery, you need someone that knows without a doubt how this is done, and I don't see you getting that here.
Let's wait until my questiongets answered before we decide nobody knows how to measure a tank
http://www.airproducts.com/~/media/files/pdf/company/safetygram-7.pdf
http://www.uigi.com/n2_conv.html
Gordy
1
Re: Is it possible to test a boiler efficiency?
What the technician did was check the combustion efficiency. If the boiler is running satisfactory you should have a combustion efficiency of 80% +. 84 or 85% would be the best that can be expected with a conventional non condensing boiler. If it's down in the 70s not so good.
Combustion efficiency shows "generally" how efficient the boiler is. There could be other factors involved that affect the total efficiency of the system. A couple of examples:
The combustion efficiency could be 80% but maybe the pipes are not insulated, so you loose heat even though the boiler is ok you burn more fuel
Or, the combustion efficiency could be 80% but the boiler may be oversized (more likely) or undersized (less likely) which causes the total efficiency to be not good.
What the tech did was correct, no reason to think you got snookered
Combustion efficiency shows "generally" how efficient the boiler is. There could be other factors involved that affect the total efficiency of the system. A couple of examples:
The combustion efficiency could be 80% but maybe the pipes are not insulated, so you loose heat even though the boiler is ok you burn more fuel
Or, the combustion efficiency could be 80% but the boiler may be oversized (more likely) or undersized (less likely) which causes the total efficiency to be not good.
What the tech did was correct, no reason to think you got snookered
Re: 3 Ton Lenox Single Stage AC sounds like it is possibly short cycling
This post was just getting interesting....hope he responds back with outcome.
JUGHNE
0
Re: Why hot water and not steam?
Hot water circulator and small copper piping
In addition to all that's been said, I think the hot water circulator and the ability to use small copper piping that didn't have to hang low from the ceiling that did it. We can't ignore the fact that the advent of forced air (instead of gravity) was changing everything and was the cost standard of the post war building boom. And this happened before the widespread use of air conditioning. The "new and improved" hot water was the only wet heat that stood a chance from a 1st cost perspective as compared to the "new and improved" forced air system. The home I live in has early forced air (1939) yet there are a few (very few) houses of the same type and vintage in this development that had the optional Steam Heat Upgrade.
But steam was viewed in that transitional era as being the system with the big expensive steel hanging (and banging?) pipes that screwed up plans for the "new and improved" knotty pine basement rec room.
No one wanted the pipes and no one wanted to twist that pipe. Unfortunately, the Iron Fireman SelecTemp copper tube steam heating system came too late in the '50's as I think the tide had already turned. As boilerpro pointed out, the minitube system (like Gerry's) is actually easier to install than HW, but I think SelecTemp's proprietary steam turbine driven unit heaters priced them right back out of the ballpark.
But steam got bumped out of the market so long before condensing technology existed that I doubt "efficiency" was what pushed it out. When I was growing up, my dad the architect always viewed steam heating as a very efficient system in its day.
It was cost and prevailing view of how it had to be piped (BIG) that did it in, IMO.
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Regarding heat loss in pipes, I've often wondered if anyone takes into account that the heat loss from steam lines is primarily from the main and runouts, but not the return; and that the supply and return on a hot water system are nearly the same temperature with similar heat losses. This is, of course, because hot water releases so very little heat into the room (including the radiator) for the amount of mass circulated as compared to steam. Just askin'
I've never bought into the whole idea that steam is so difficult to control. If you use TRV.s or, like in the old days, pneumatic thermostats, I see no problem. I guess I've been privileged to have been exposed to steam heating systems both large and small that were working as designed. Believe it or not, I never heard a steam system "clank" until I started working in the steam biz. The bigger systems at my school all had room thermostats and modulating burners on the boilers.
And as Steamhead said, the steam heating systems can tolerate freezing. I know that my school's system would shut down towards the end of the school day. They had those classroom ventilators, and I'm told that that stuff regularly went below freezing over weekends and Christmas break.
In the rustbelt here, the number of foreclosures in recent years has exposed this achilles heel of hot water heating. I have witnessed the demise of a disturbing number of hot water systems due to freezing. Many times the Bank's winterizing service showed up after the damage was done. So far the steam systems have survived.
In addition to all that's been said, I think the hot water circulator and the ability to use small copper piping that didn't have to hang low from the ceiling that did it. We can't ignore the fact that the advent of forced air (instead of gravity) was changing everything and was the cost standard of the post war building boom. And this happened before the widespread use of air conditioning. The "new and improved" hot water was the only wet heat that stood a chance from a 1st cost perspective as compared to the "new and improved" forced air system. The home I live in has early forced air (1939) yet there are a few (very few) houses of the same type and vintage in this development that had the optional Steam Heat Upgrade.
But steam was viewed in that transitional era as being the system with the big expensive steel hanging (and banging?) pipes that screwed up plans for the "new and improved" knotty pine basement rec room.
No one wanted the pipes and no one wanted to twist that pipe. Unfortunately, the Iron Fireman SelecTemp copper tube steam heating system came too late in the '50's as I think the tide had already turned. As boilerpro pointed out, the minitube system (like Gerry's) is actually easier to install than HW, but I think SelecTemp's proprietary steam turbine driven unit heaters priced them right back out of the ballpark.
But steam got bumped out of the market so long before condensing technology existed that I doubt "efficiency" was what pushed it out. When I was growing up, my dad the architect always viewed steam heating as a very efficient system in its day.
It was cost and prevailing view of how it had to be piped (BIG) that did it in, IMO.
----------
Regarding heat loss in pipes, I've often wondered if anyone takes into account that the heat loss from steam lines is primarily from the main and runouts, but not the return; and that the supply and return on a hot water system are nearly the same temperature with similar heat losses. This is, of course, because hot water releases so very little heat into the room (including the radiator) for the amount of mass circulated as compared to steam. Just askin'
I've never bought into the whole idea that steam is so difficult to control. If you use TRV.s or, like in the old days, pneumatic thermostats, I see no problem. I guess I've been privileged to have been exposed to steam heating systems both large and small that were working as designed. Believe it or not, I never heard a steam system "clank" until I started working in the steam biz. The bigger systems at my school all had room thermostats and modulating burners on the boilers.
And as Steamhead said, the steam heating systems can tolerate freezing. I know that my school's system would shut down towards the end of the school day. They had those classroom ventilators, and I'm told that that stuff regularly went below freezing over weekends and Christmas break.
In the rustbelt here, the number of foreclosures in recent years has exposed this achilles heel of hot water heating. I have witnessed the demise of a disturbing number of hot water systems due to freezing. Many times the Bank's winterizing service showed up after the damage was done. So far the steam systems have survived.
Re: Soaked oil rag safety disposal
I've heard of linseed oil spontaneously igniting, but never Diesel fuel.It is, unless the rag is perfectly clean and and not cotton or wool. But why take chances? A nice fire in the basement can ruin your whole day...
That's a new one on me.
I mean I could be wrong, but I don't believe it's possible.
Re: Illinois payroll tax hike 32%? Yikes! Can that be passed on to customer?
If you want to be in business long it will have to be passed on. Classic big government not reducing costs.
kcopp
1
Re: creeping up boiler pressure
thanks for the replies. confirms my thoughts on the boiler mate. will up date post when fixed
carl3633
0
Re: I wonder if ChrisJ is stable yet ?
If you have a 6ton TXV, I'm pretty sure you found your answer. They do have some range, but that's a stretch.They swear it's the proper valve due to the flow through the evaporator. How that makes sense is beyond me. I thought the flow through the evaporator was determined by the capacity of the system.
Bleh.
ChrisJ
0