Just to stir the pot...

SlamDunk

seized123 said:

It was decades ago, I don’t even remember where it was, not Arthur Ave., though. Pretty sure it was called Mamas, and when you walked in there she was your Mama, heros as big as an aircraft carrier and so stuffed you couldn’t fold them in half. .

Maybe it was in Morris Park on the other side of the zoo.

I'll keep my automatic. People have a hard enough time staying in their lanes, moving when the light turn green and maintaining speed without a stick. Can you imagine how fowled up things would be if everyone had to drive a stick?

Mad Dog_2

I can taste it in my mind's eye...like those Old Timers with the Hot Dog 🌭 Stand...Dirty water dogs....Mustard, Saurkraut, unions.  And an Ice Cold Yoo-Hoo....Mad Dog 🐕 

vtfarmer

This topic seems like a good opportunity to give an update to my thread about when the eastern US ran out of power on December 23-24 last year trying to keep all of those heat pumps running (the lights actually went out in parts of NC to the Gulf Coast (TVA and Duke were in EEA-3), and barely stayed on north of there):

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/192014/a-true-narrative-about-heat-pumps-backup-heat-sources-and-considerations-when-going-all-electric

Since I wrote that so far this summer we've been in EEA-1 (read the story linked from the thread above) in the mid-Atlantic, California, and in Texas several times (in fact, the forecast is looking like Texas may literally run out of juice on Monday afternoon but they've managed to cling on so far this summer).

As for manual transmissions, I love them like I love analog gauges, crank windows, and mechanically fuel injected diesel engines but I'm in the small minority (though I did travel to the UK in March and rented a stick shift SUV for the week, which was great).

hot_rod

vtfarmer said:

This topic seems like a good opportunity to give an update to my thread about when the eastern US ran out of power on December 23-24 last year trying to keep all of those heat pumps running (the lights actually went out in parts of NC to the Gulf Coast (TVA and Duke were in EEA-3), and barely stayed on north of there):

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/192014/a-true-narrative-about-heat-pumps-backup-heat-sources-and-considerations-when-going-all-electric

Since I wrote that so far this summer we've been in EEA-1 (read the story linked from the thread above) in the mid-Atlantic, California, and in Texas several times (in fact, the forecast is looking like Texas may literally run out of juice on Monday afternoon but they've managed to cling on so far this summer).

As for manual transmissions, I love them like I love analog gauges, crank windows, and mechanically fuel injected diesel engines but I'm in the small minority (though I did travel to the UK in March and rented a stick shift SUV for the week, which was great).

A lot of the cars in Europe, even the rentals are stick shift. And small diesels power them.

Hot_water_fan

https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=57240

Interesting write up of the Texas heatwave - the demand record from before 2023 has been broken 12 times already this summer but prices are lower than previous years, partially because there’s a lot more solar on their grid this year. In an energy only market, low prices means plenty of capacity. 

vtfarmer

Hot_water_fan said:

https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=57240

Interesting write up of the Texas heatwave - the demand record from before 2023 has been broken 12 times already this summer but prices are lower than previous years, partially because there’s a lot more solar on their grid this year. In an energy only market, low prices means plenty of capacity. 

Not quite - the solar drives the price down for part of the day, but when the sun sets the demand is still there and you run into shortage situations (and associated pricing).

Which markets are you qualified to dispatch power plants in? I'm certified in CAISO, ERCOT, PJM, and ISO New England, though my ISONE cert is expired as I haven't had a client there in a few years. It's really important that people who actually deal with this stuff on a daily basis provide perspective, otherwise the public will think the situation is fine when it is, in fact, not.

The primary sources can be dense, but for some background on the east coast situation I suggest you give this report a read:

https://pjm.com/-/media/library/reports-notices/special-reports/2023/20230717-winter-storm-elliott-event-analysis-and-recommendation-report.ashx

Hot_water_fan

Not quite - the solar drives the price down for part of the day, but when the sun sets the demand is still there and you run into shortage situations (and associated pricing). 

Aren’t we saying the same thing? Average price has decreased, but of course average doesn’t mean it’s the same 24/7.

Which markets are you qualified to dispatch power plants in? I'm certified in CAISO, ERCOT, PJM, and ISO New England, though my ISONE cert is expired as I haven't had a client there in a few years. It's really important that people who actually deal with this stuff on a daily basis provide perspective, otherwise the public will think the situation is fine when it is, in fact, not.

All of them, in fact! 

I’ve read that report - I might have posted a summary link a few weeks back? The cratering of gas generation seems common during cold weather, happened in PJM, ERCOT, I’m not sure about where else. 

Regardless, it’s interesting but not relevant to me: I support a hybrid situation anyway. I support keeping existing furnaces and replacing the ACs with heat pumps when they eventually break over the next few decades. That’s pragmatic in my opinion and increases reliability. Win win no? 

mikeg2015

Solid_Fuel_Man said:

Hot_water_fan said:

@Mad Dog_2 maybe you’re seeing something different than I am, but I’m seeing people advocating for replacing ACs with heat pumps when they break. No big brother, no mandates, just a multi decade process. Similar to how manual transmissions have vanished - it happened over decades.

Yeah....now I can't even get a manual in pretty much anything. Lame..... I can get better mileage and have more fun in a manual. Always. But they ain't as clean due to not having control of shift points and engine load at certain RPM. 




They are still meeting the same emissions standards same as autos. It was once thought they would go away because of emissions, but electronic throttle bodies and direct injection saved them. That's why you now have lots of rev hang.

I agree. when i was looking for a car to commute a long way in the denver area, I wanted something fun, comfortable, manual transmission great handling for mountain roads on weekends and the twisty freeways but stable at high speeds and still get great fuel economy. Ended up with a 2016 Mini cooper with the base 3 cylinder and 6MT. Absolutely the perfect commuter. Tons of low end torque, unique engine sounds, but more refined like a BMW, not a econo box sub compact. Look forward to getting in to it every morning.


As for heat pumps. They have a place. We are stocking only heat pumps because in part, the lead times are 3 months not 6 months, and the current gas vs electric prices are favorable and the industry is moving that way so better to stay ahead of it.

What I don't like is force fed regulation. I'd rather see incentives created by for example increasing fuel taxes or a fee on natural gas to fund rebates for equipment/vehicles. So you want to drive a big lifted jacked up pickup? Great, but you need to pay extra fuel taxes to fund vehicles that get over 40mpg combined. Maybe also put money into a fund for broken windshields since they never have the required fender flares or mud flaps.

ChrisJ

@mikeg2015
According to the car manufacturers they can get better mileage with automatics.

No idea if it's true or not. Might also have a lot to do with the general public driving the way they do.

I currently drive a Hyundai with 6 speed manual and average 44mpg.
Before that, I had a Chevy Sonic 1.4 turbo with 6 speed manual and averaged 40mpg.

For all I know the same cars with automatics would give the same or better mileage. But I prefer a manual and feel there's less chance of issues, especially vs CVTs.

I know exactly what you mean with "rev hang" Even my 1992 chevy c2500 with a 5 speed had it. It would hold the rpm's up and then let them drop slowly, 100% intentionally using the IAC valve. But, does it really matter in the big picture? Not at all, it just sounds lame.

I'm betting that's also why I found Quadrajets tuned properly to be far more responsive than fuel injection. I think it's 100% intentionally programmed into fuel injection to be delayed in both directions.

Jamie Hall

Totally agree with @mikeg2015 on regulations. I've always had the quaint notion that if you build a better product at a fair price, most folks will prefer it and go with it. If you have to force them to buy it, then it's likely that it's because it either isn't better or the price isn't fair. Of both.

One can, of course, argue about what a fair price is, and that is an interesting, worthwhile, and very difficult question. Not for here, I think.

And, parenthetically, for me at least may I complain a bit? LED bulbs, except for a few of the very most expensive ones, give me headaches. I can perceive the 60 hz. flicker. Thanks, EPA...

Oh and PS -- indeed a well tuned Quadrajet is a joy to drive. So is an equally well tuned mechanical secondary Carter. The latter, however, are a lot easier to tune well... IMHO.

hot_rod

Cars with manual transmissions don't get ripped off as often
as auto trannies. It tells a lot about how the generational changes dictate automakers offerings. And maybe the lazy-ness of younger drivers?

I will say the 6 speed manuals that they paired to diesels starting in the 2000's like PowerStrokes were not nearly as rugged as the old rock crusher 4 speeds. Farmers are notorious for overloading pickups and 1 tons, they kept their 4 speeds Muncie 420 type as long as possible for heavy hauling, after seeing how weak the early aluminum case Gertrag 6 speed were.

ChrisJ

hot_rod said:

Cars with manual transmissions don't get ripped off as often
as auto trannies. It tells a lot about how the generational changes dictate automakers offerings. And maybe the lazy-ness of younger drivers?

I will say the 6 speed manuals that they paired to diesels starting in the 2000's like PowerStrokes were not nearly as rugged as the old rock crusher 4 speeds. Farmers are notorious for overloading pickups and 1 tons, they kept their 4 speeds Muncie 420 type as long as possible for heavy hauling, after seeing how weak the early aluminum case Gertrag 6 speed were.

My 1992 with a 350 had an NV4500 which was a cast iron 5 speed.
For mating with a Cummins Dodge had released an NV4500HD which had a heavier input shaft.

Don't be confused, my truck was a Chevy, but the transmission was New Venture Gear, which I think both GM and Dodge shared somehow.

I don't think that NV4500, even non-HD was considered weak by any stretch of the imagination.

Its dry weight is 195 pounds (88 kg), and its oil capacity is about a gallon. The maximum GVW is 14,500 pounds (6,600 kg), and the case material is cast iron. The synchronizers are made of carbon fiber composite

1st and R : 6.34
2nd : 3.44
3rd: 1.71
4th : 1.00
5th: 0.73


First was synchronized, reverse was not.

I rarely used first, and reverse bit me in the butt a few times. Trying to back up a hill in the snow, the tires moved so slow it was almost hopeless if you wanted to try and dig down to dirt / pavement. I think it redlined at 5mph if memory serves....

Jamie Hall

In the peak muscle car era -- say 1964 through 1967 -- it is surprising how many cars had transmission trouble -- to the extent that some were shipped with three speed transmissions, as the four speeds weren't capable of handling the torque if you managed to get a decent grip on launch. I only know that because my '66 Skylark Gran Sport had a three speed, as until sometime in June or July the only four speed available that fit the chassis had an intermediate shaft that broke on launch with dismaying regularity when mated with the 401 nailhead (which was a torquey monster)(the nailhead's torque and power curves were so broad that it didn't make much difference...)

ChrisJ

Jamie Hall said:

In the peak muscle car era -- say 1964 through 1967 -- it is surprising how many cars had transmission trouble -- to the extent that some were shipped with three speed transmissions, as the four speeds weren't capable of handling the torque if you managed to get a decent grip on launch. I only know that because my '66 Skylark Gran Sport had a three speed, as until sometime in June or July the only four speed available that fit the chassis had an intermediate shaft that broke on launch with dismaying regularity when mated with the 401 nailhead (which was a torquey monster)(the nailhead's torque and power curves were so broad that it didn't make much difference...)

Should've bought it with a th400.

Jamie Hall

I wanted a manual...

reggi

@Jamie Hall   "My Cousin Vinnie" 

ChrisJ

Jamie Hall said:

I wanted a manual...

Here

Hot_water_fan

It tells a lot about how the generational changes dictate automakers offerings. And maybe the lazy-ness of younger drivers?

Ha @hot_rod if you mean the baby boomers that quit buying them as soon as they could…

Jamie Hall

The only reason I sold my Skylark was this: it was difficult to drive unless you really knew what you were doing, and my son, an adventurous soul, had gotten his driver's license and seemed likely to kill himself with it before he got it figured out.

ChrisJ

Hot_water_fan said:

It tells a lot about how the generational changes dictate automakers offerings. And maybe the lazy-ness of younger drivers?

Ha @hot_rod if you mean the baby boomers that quit buying them as soon as they could…

My dad pulled a manual out of a 68 Cutlass and put a TH400 in it because of sciatic issues.

So he technically did what you said but I don't think it was by choice.

He's of course had automatics ever since.

However I also know my great grandfather who was born in 1899 said the best thing they ever invented was the automatic transmission.

So....I don't think you can blame any specific generation on this.

Mad Dog_2

My Cousin Vinny...Great movie..Pesci and Tomei Sound like most folks in Brooklyn and Queens 1970s and 1980s. Herman Munster's greatest role..."What is A YUTE Mr. Gambini???"  Mad Dog 🐕 

ChrisJ

Mad Dog_2 said:

My Cousin Vinny...Great movie..Pesci and Tomei Sound like most folks in Brooklyn and Queens 1970s and 1980s. Herman Munster's greatest role..."What is A YUTE Mr. Gambini???"  Mad Dog 🐕 

Fred Gwynne.....

reggi

Marisa Tomei ... So hot 🔥 

Mona Lisa Vito : No, there's more! You see? When the left tire mark goes up on the curb and the right tire mark stays flat and even? Well, the '64 Skylark had a solid rear axle, so when the left tire would go up on the curb, the right tire would tilt out and ride along its edge. But that didn't happen here. The tire mark stayed flat and even. This car had an independent rear suspension. Now, in the '60s, there were only two other cars made in America that had positraction, and independent rear suspension, and enough power to make these marks. One was the Corvette, which could never be confused with the Buick Skylark. The other had the same body length, height, width, weight, wheel base, and wheel track as the '64 Skylark, and that was the 1963 Pontiac Tempest.

hot_rod

ChrisJ said:

Cars with manual transmissions don't get ripped off as often as auto trannies. It tells a lot about how the generational changes dictate automakers offerings. And maybe the lazy-ness of younger drivers? I will say the 6 speed manuals that they paired to diesels starting in the 2000's like PowerStrokes were not nearly as rugged as the old rock crusher 4 speeds. Farmers are notorious for overloading pickups and 1 tons, they kept their 4 speeds Muncie 420 type as long as possible for heavy hauling, after seeing how weak the early aluminum case Gertrag 6 speed were.

My 1992 with a 350 had an NV4500 which was a cast iron 5 speed. For mating with a Cummins Dodge had released an NV4500HD which had a heavier input shaft. Don't be confused, my truck was a Chevy, but the transmission was New Venture Gear, which I think both GM and Dodge shared somehow. I don't think that NV4500, even non-HD was considered weak by any stretch of the imagination. Its dry weight is 195 pounds (88 kg), and its oil capacity is about a gallon. The maximum GVW is 14,500 pounds (6,600 kg), and the case material is cast iron. The synchronizers are made of carbon fiber composite 1st and R : 6.34 2nd : 3.44 3rd: 1.71 4th : 1.00 5th: 0.73 First was synchronized, reverse was not. I rarely used first, and reverse bit me in the butt a few times. Trying to back up a hill in the snow, the tires moved so slow it was almost hopeless if you wanted to try and dig down to dirt / pavement. I think it redlined at 5mph if memory serves....

NV came out of a merger between Muncie and New Process, so both GM and Chrysler used them. I had a 99 Ram diesel with a 5 speed NV. They had a habit of popping out of gear sometimes while  driving. Mine did

GM and Chevy used the ZF 650 manual 6 speeds German built I think, in some trucks from 01-06,
Ford used the heavier 750 version and my Ford 2006 diesel had that version

over the years there have been multiple brands and models used in various size trucks 

You can tell which ones were  week as after market companies would beef them up and sell as performance versions. Same with the Aisin automatics

ChrisJ

hot_rod said:

ChrisJ said:

Cars with manual transmissions don't get ripped off as often
as auto trannies. It tells a lot about how the generational changes dictate automakers offerings. And maybe the lazy-ness of younger drivers?

I will say the 6 speed manuals that they paired to diesels starting in the 2000's like PowerStrokes were not nearly as rugged as the old rock crusher 4 speeds. Farmers are notorious for overloading pickups and 1 tons, they kept their 4 speeds Muncie 420 type as long as possible for heavy hauling, after seeing how weak the early aluminum case Gertrag 6 speed were.

My 1992 with a 350 had an NV4500 which was a cast iron 5 speed.
For mating with a Cummins Dodge had released an NV4500HD which had a heavier input shaft.

Don't be confused, my truck was a Chevy, but the transmission was New Venture Gear, which I think both GM and Dodge shared somehow.

I don't think that NV4500, even non-HD was considered weak by any stretch of the imagination.

Its dry weight is 195 pounds (88 kg), and its oil capacity is about a gallon. The maximum GVW is 14,500 pounds (6,600 kg), and the case material is cast iron. The synchronizers are made of carbon fiber composite

1st and R : 6.34
2nd : 3.44
3rd: 1.71
4th : 1.00
5th: 0.73


First was synchronized, reverse was not.

I rarely used first, and reverse bit me in the butt a few times. Trying to back up a hill in the snow, the tires moved so slow it was almost hopeless if you wanted to try and dig down to dirt / pavement. I think it redlined at 5mph if memory serves....

NV came out of a merger between Muncie and New Process, so both GM and Chrysler used them. I had a 99 Ram diesel with a 5 speed NV. They had a habit of popping out of gear sometimes while  driving. Mine did

GM and Chevy used the ZF 650 manual 6 speeds German built I think, in some trucks from 01-06,
Ford used the heavier 750 version and my Ford 2006 diesel had that version

over the years there have been multiple brands and models used in various size trucks 

You can tell which ones were  week as after market companies would beef them up and sell as performance versions. Same with the Aisin automatics

NV4500's had a habit of popping out of gear?
I've never heard of such a thing, nor did I ever experience it in 225,000 miles.

The only thing I had heard of were complaints about the pilot bearing needing to be beefed up, and an issue with 5th gear. Neither of which I had, but they're often talked about.

hot_rod

From Eric

Solid_Fuel_Man

Automatics these days DO get better overall mileage than manuals. That's due to the gearing and very deep overdrives. If they made a manual with similar rations (6 speeds, but skipping a few gears in the 10auto) we would inherently see better mileage. Automatics have hydraulic losses, think heat and transmission coolers. 

As for 4 speeds being weaker than their 4 speed counterparts that was due to the higher multiplication, lower 1st gear ratio. The Muncie (crunchy) used an aluminum case and had a side cover which was inherently weaker than the toploader design. I've rebuilt several 3, 4, and 5 speeds. All of the old designs are much weaker then modern stuff. 

So if I had a 6MT with:

6th being 0.63
5th.     0.85
4th.     1
3rd.     1.8
2nd.     2.5
1st.      4

I liked the GM approach back in the early 90s with their 350 LT1 powered Firebird/Camero with a nice close ratio 4 speed with a doggish 5th. We can just do that with a 6 speed now. 

I think the general public never wants to downshift out of top gear in a manual and just mashes the gas up hills. Therefore we don't end up with very deep overdrives like seamless Automatics have enjoyed for several decades. 

I've also wondered why we even have overdrives.... why not a much taller final drive with the top gear being a 1:1. Especially for smaller economy vehicles where then engine is 250ft.lbs. or less. 

Taking engine RPM and then speeding it up, just to slow it back down at the wheels seems like a heat producing waste. 

Make the transmission tough enough to take the torque multiplication. Easier to make a transaxle like this. 

Jamie Hall

Overall power train design is an interesting topic... takes a lot of research.

Couple of observations. One of the reasons for the proliferation of gears on modern automatics and even some manuals (when you can find them) is that the usable power curve of modern ICE engines is remarkably narrow. Why? Because that way you can maximize the efficiency and cleanliness for a very narrow power band. This has been true of diesels for decades (anyone for an 18 speed RoadRanger?), but with the requirements for better mileage and cleaner combustion we see it in gas engines now too. That 401 nailhead I mentioned above had usable torque from about 1200 rpm up to around 4800 --as does the little straight six 250 in my '70 C10. Yes, there is a tendency to leave it in top gear at anything over 30 mph. It's perfectly happy, so why not?

The Allison automatic in our towing truck (Chevy K2500 SD, Duramax diesel) does have overdrive, for when you are just cruising along without much of a load -- anything under 4 tons or so. The regular "drive" still locks up, but not in overdrive -- but the beauty of that transmission (since the Duramax doesn't have a Jake brake) is that it has a hydraulic retarder which is very strong -- and a real blessing going down hills with maybe a total of 27,000 pounds to control (and yeas, we all have CDLs). The Allison in our old towing truck (also a K2500, but with the 454 gas engine) also had a retarder in drive (but not in overdrive) but not as strong a one.

There is a good deal to be said for a well designed CVT as well (some are, some aren't) in terms of matching the engine performance to the driving conditions -- particularly for some of the really small rice burners. I know the gearheads don't like them -- but a well designed one works spectacularly well.

I honestly don't know anyone who drives the heavier trucks for a living (I don't mean as a grocery getter) who doesn't like the modern automatics, not only are they a lot easier to drive, but you have much better control over heavy loads at low speeds and particularly in reverse or on hills.

ChrisJ

Solid_Fuel_Man said:

Automatics these days DO get better overall mileage than manuals. That's due to the gearing and very deep overdrives. If they made a manual with similar rations (6 speeds, but skipping a few gears in the 10auto) we would inherently see better mileage. Automatics have hydraulic losses, think heat and transmission coolers. 

As for 4 speeds being weaker than their 4 speed counterparts that was due to the higher multiplication, lower 1st gear ratio. The Muncie (crunchy) used an aluminum case and had a side cover which was inherently weaker than the toploader design. I've rebuilt several 3, 4, and 5 speeds. All of the old designs are much weaker then modern stuff. 

So if I had a 6MT with:

6th being 0.63
5th.     0.85
4th.     1
3rd.     1.8
2nd.     2.5
1st.      4

I liked the GM approach back in the early 90s with their 350 LT1 powered Firebird/Camero with a nice close ratio 4 speed with a doggish 5th. We can just do that with a 6 speed now. 

I think the general public never wants to downshift out of top gear in a manual and just mashes the gas up hills. Therefore we don't end up with very deep overdrives like seamless Automatics have enjoyed for several decades. 

I've also wondered why we even have overdrives.... why not a much taller final drive with the top gear being a 1:1. Especially for smaller economy vehicles where then engine is 250ft.lbs. or less. 

Taking engine RPM and then speeding it up, just to slow it back down at the wheels seems like a heat producing waste. 

Make the transmission tough enough to take the torque multiplication. Easier to make a transaxle like this. 

This is the setup my last car, and my wife's last car had. We both had 6 spd manuals, but I included the automatic option for comparison.


Notice, the ratios are pretty steep.
But, the final drive is lower because you don't have any torque multiplication when starting from a stop with a clutch.

Solid_Fuel_Man

@ChrisJ

I think this illustrates my point very well. The final drive in the AT6 makes the RPM 30% lower when the torque converter is locked up in 6th compared to the MT6. 

If they gave you a 3.23 final with the manual you'd get better mileage than the AT wersion. Or made up for the 4.176 with a 0.57 OD. 

3.09 manual vs 2.42 auto for 6th gear overall ratios. 

Solid_Fuel_Man

I don't know if I've ever posted about this on heatinghelp but I love manuals! 

I converted my 59 Galaxie 500 to a 3+OD column shifted manual (from the 2 speed Ford-O-Matic) which gave up the ghost. 

Donor transmission was out of a 1977 Ford Granada, remember those LOL? 


Compassion of a close ratio 3 speed Ford Toploader mainshaft to the Granada OD


Had to put this on..... it was supposed to go on the trunk of a 56? Ford I think

Solid_Fuel_Man

Mad Dog_2

Gearheads......Mad Dog 🐕 

seized123

clammy said:

I ve been trying not to comment on any thing which may have any political over tones and the whole save the planet going green air to water heat pump garbage and end of fossil fuels and all grid all I can really think and say is control and who gonna have it ,it certainly will not be the people on the end of the transmission lines . It does not take much adjustment of hertz on a grand scale to get people in line w lowering their thermostats just lower the hertz .
The all in one basket and some one else controlling the throttle just doesn’t give me a warm feeling . It s really even funnier is where all out to save the world and environment but where gonna but our eggs in a basket being driven by older technology on even older wheels the grid and then use a slightly Enviromental harmful refrigerant to produce heat . **** sounds quite absurd especially since in every transmission of energy there’s a lose at some level even at a sub atomic particularly level in quantum physics but I quest this is not revenant when it comes to 70 year old transmission lines .
Wool is often never used by magicians but the saying is pulling the wool over . And let’s all not be completely ignorant and believe in tooth fairies and nonsense . You can’t put in less and get more than was put in impossible unless just on paper . A really final note on the nonsense to all who wish and think this is the next big ice cream cone in the sky which will answer and solve all energy issues will satisfy the issue ,not really there’s always another big ice cream cone in the sky coming down the pike . Human nature is greed a non reality based thought and occurrence ,the true reasoning is never known and when it comes to energy those w there ducks in a line will hold the keys ,just look at where the money is who sponsoring these programs,mostly politicians who are already in relationships w big energy . So believe what you want But as Einstein said ww4 sticks and stones and us sooner or later back to flint and steel when all decision making is done by those who will profit and due best for themselves by the profit .
Every one complains about crappy techs unable to troubleshoot anything and well w throw away refregerant and cheaply made equipment made like garbage ,what will happen w all the new garbage that no one w a brain can fix or get parts for well you freeze .
I really often reframe from commenting due to how far off track most all posts end at and the fact that it s more arm chair then spinners and hardly any pros posting due to bashing and guys who may be smart but are not doing this professionally for a living and the under lining political under tones and views really cut my comments and replies to nil . There s some stirring the pot for you all ,ps please do no get reality confused w negativity .

Peace and good luck clammy

Been meaning to say, this is pure literature, should be published somewhere.

Larry Weingarten

Hi @seized123 , Let's call it "The Book of Clammyizims". The Wall is peppered with his useful perspectives, so the book is largely written already. @clammy , whatcha think? Clammy the author??

Yours, Larry