New Boiler install (edit) passed inspection :)

ethicalpaul

Yep you answered my question @JohnNY, thank you again.

The reason it might get interesting is at my house the town water goes to zero or negative pressure occasionally. 

I’ll have to see how much vents out in practice 

Jamie Hall

The joker in the deck, @ethicalpaul , is that "if the city water pressure is holding it closed" bit. It may not ever happen in your neighbourhood, and I hope it doesn't, but either a water main break or a fire much bigger than a barbecue can pull the mains water pressure to well below atmospheric. This is why the BFP (or, in some applications, an air gap) is required.

ethicalpaul

Thanks @Jamie Hall

No one seems to hear me say this but at my house in fact, the city pressure DOES drop to zero and below all too often. There’s some issue with the pumps is all I can imagine.

But I still don’t see how having a valve on each side would let anything go into the water supply. When I open the valves the city pressure is applied to the BFP just like how I have it now with only a downstream valve :shrug:

ChrisJ

There are some that feel it's unsafe to have a valve on the outlet of a water heater.

And yet, guess what's at the end of the pipe at each fixture and machine that uses hot water? 

JohnNY

ChrisJ said:

There are some that feel it's unsafe to have a valve on the outlet of a water heater.

And yet, guess what's at the end of the pipe at each fixture and machine that uses hot water? 

It's illegal to double trap a fixture (drain passing through 2 traps) in New York. Yet we have traps on the building drains before exiting the foundation effectively double trapping every single fixture in the building.

ChrisJ

JohnNY said:

ChrisJ said:

There are some that feel it's unsafe to have a valve on the outlet of a water heater.

And yet, guess what's at the end of the pipe at each fixture and machine that uses hot water? 

It's illegal to double trap a fixture (drain passing through 2 traps) in New York. Yet we have traps on the building drains before exiting the foundation effectively double trapping every single fixture in the building.

What was the reason behind double trapping being illegal?

jumper

Building traps were supposed to keep sewer rats out? Nowadays they're frowned upon because they clog? How many building traps are/were vented?

Gsmith

Isn’t the building side of a building trap vented through the main building stack vent? And, the sewer side is sort of vented by the sewer system itself which in most cases, especially in older cities, was not a particularly tight piping system, often with vented manhole covers. I know they have been tightened up to prevent infiltration into the sewer system in recent years but when the building traps were installed I believe the sewer systems were pretty leaky from a gas standpoint

ethicalpaul

My discussion topic has really gone into the sewer!

Larry Weingarten

Well then... What's going to be needed to make your boiler install pass inspection?

Yours, Larry

ethicalpaul

So far I'm not getting a lot of cooperation from Peerless. I was advised by them to find a contractor to contact them about this topic. They don't like to talk to homeowners and I knew that going in.

Any volunteers, especially from New Jersey, who would like to see if they can get a statement from Peerless that drop header designs are acceptable for low headroom situations, or to deliver very dry steam? It could be useful to you if you run across this issue on any of your installs.

The person who emailed me from Peerless did mention those two reasons for using a drop header, so they are definitely aware of the topic. But they said Peerless has no documents stating such currently.

I have their support phone number and email address if anyone needs it.

ChrisJ

ethicalpaul said:

So far I'm not getting a lot of cooperation from Peerless. I was advised by them to find a contractor to contact them about this topic. They don't like to talk to homeowners and I knew that going in. Any volunteers, especially from New Jersey, who would like to see if they can get a statement from Peerless that drop header designs are acceptable for low headroom situations, or to deliver very dry steam? It could be useful to you if you run across this issue on any of your installs. The person who emailed me from Peerless did mention those two reasons for using a drop header, so they are definitely aware of the topic. But they said Peerless has no documents stating such currently. I have their support phone number and email address if anyone needs it.

So, you have an email from Peerless saying the reasons for using a drop header?  Is there a company signature on it?

JohnNY

ethicalpaul said:

Any volunteers, especially from New Jersey,

I can make a call to their reps at Advanced Hydronics tomorrow and see if they'll send me something.

ethicalpaul

I would be further in your debt, @JohnNY. Thank you for the offer to help.

ethicalpaul

So, you have an email from Peerless saying the reasons for using a drop header? Is there a company signature on it?

It's not really worded in a helpful way. I'll quote it here, I don't think I'm violating any expectation of privacy on their part. I had explained to their support form that the inspector didn't like my water seal nor my drop header. Note that I have since taken off my water seal and put the pigtail back.

Hello -
A pig tail is a water seal; they are one in the same. A Drop Header is typically used because of lack of head room or to create a drier steam delivery to the system.

If the inspector is questioning it :

A ) He is seeing something wrong.
B ) He doesn’t understand what he is looking at.
In both cases you will need to discus with the inspector what the problem is.

We cannot provide written clarification as these are system designs initiated by a heating contractor.

Thank you,
PB Heat

JUGHNE

It is rather amazing that we see so many hacked up NBP schemes on the wall here, that the local inspector signed off on, (if inspected at all) and then the drop headers are questioned.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@JUGHNE

That's payback for doing things right

Jamie Hall

To go back to the slight derailment up there... on the hot water, it is indeed bad practice to have a shut off valve on the outlet of a water heater -- unless there is either an expansion tank on either that line of the heater or somewhere on the system, or there is free access (no check valve, no BFP) on the house main.

Right. Actually, so long as the relief valve on the water heater functions properly, no problem.

The house trap was, I believe, an effort to keep sewer gas out of the house, on the not insane theory that there may be traps in the house which are dry -- particularly floor drains. Some years ago I did some smoke testing on a city sewer, and it was surprising how many of those we found (no house traps in that town!). If done properly, the house side was vented through the stack, but sometimes there was a vent through the outside wall right at the trap -- a small grille in the foundation or just above it.

EBEBRATT-Ed

I will throw this out there just for fun.

Does this plumbing inspector have jurisdiction over the heating side of things?

In MA. with a gas fired boiler the plumbing inspector only has jurisdiction over 3 things:

Gas piping
City water make up (only up to the BFP)
Chimney and or venting

They have no jurisdiction over heating piping weather hot water or steam. He stops at the BFP

As far as I am aware the definition of plumbing is drain, waste, vents and city (or well) water piping

Most inspector I have delt with are pretty good but some go in with an attitude that there going to find something wrong......especially if it's a homeowner permit

ethicalpaul

That’s a great question @EBEBRATT-Ed. I may have to find that out. It makes sense.

Dave0176

Unfortunately in New Jersey, township inspectors tend to be on the hard side to homeowners doing their own work especially those doing plumbing HVAC and electrical. Remember these individuals inspect a lot of jobs and when they see a homeowner did the work they automatically enter with a different mindset with the notion you probably did something wrong, not to say you did Paul but mostly it’s the nature of the beast.

mattmia2

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

I will throw this out there just for fun.

Does this plumbing inspector have jurisdiction over the heating side of things?

In MA. with a gas fired boiler the plumbing inspector only has jurisdiction over 3 things:

Gas piping
City water make up (only up to the BFP)
Chimney and or venting

They have no jurisdiction over heating piping weather hot water or steam. He stops at the BFP

As far as I am aware the definition of plumbing is drain, waste, vents and city (or well) water piping

Most inspector I have delt with are pretty good but some go in with an attitude that there going to find something wrong......especially if it's a homeowner permit

I'm not sure this would help, this is kind of in the poking the bear category.

Did you look in the commercial boiler code to see if they have a drop header diagram in there?

ttekushan_3

If I recall correctly @gerry gill got special dispensation -in writing- from Peerless for this drop header installation. From Gerry’s website:

https://www.gwgillplumbingandheating.com/webapp/p/654/lakewood-steam-boiler-replacement

the photos may be used in evidence I suppose. 

ethicalpaul

Thanks, Dave, I think that is playing a role here. If only I had that piece of paper on me with the flue reducer. I feel like when he saw that reducer he thought he was dealing with a liar

@mattmia2 I agree with you about the bear—that will be one of my last ditch efforts. Basically the point where I say “I guess I’ll have to be given the violation because I think I’ve installed it beyond manufacture recommendations”. 

I haven’t looked in the commercial code, no.

JohnNY

I sent an email to Advanced Hydronics, the rep in our area, about this. Let's see what they come up. They're good steam guys.

JohnNY

Are you ready for this?

The rep referred me to Peerless technical directly.
I just got off the phone with Peerless and the official word from Tech Support is that they "Do not recommend drop headers", therefore, no such documentation showing their approval exists nor will any be forthcoming.

Sorry, Paul.

ethicalpaul

JohnNY said:

Are you ready for this?

The rep referred me to Peerless technical directly.
I just got off the phone with Peerless and the official word from Tech Support is that they "Do not recommend drop headers", therefore, no such documentation showing their approval exists nor will any be forthcoming.

Sorry, Paul.

I so appreciate your effort here, @JohnNY, it means a lot.

I'd love to know why they don't recommend them, but it will remain a mystery I think.

I did get their tech support to tell me in an email that drop headers will NOT void their warranty so I'm hoping I can show that to the inspector and he will allow it.

STEAM DOCTOR

JohnNY said:

Are you ready for this? The rep referred me to Peerless technical directly. I just got off the phone with Peerless and the official word from Tech Support is that they "Do not recommend drop headers", therefore, no such documentation showing their approval exists nor will any be forthcoming. Sorry, Paul.

They do not recomend drop headers or they recomend not using drop headers??? Big difference. 

ChrisJ

STEAM DOCTOR said:

JohnNY said:

Are you ready for this? The rep referred me to Peerless technical directly. I just got off the phone with Peerless and the official word from Tech Support is that they "Do not recommend drop headers", therefore, no such documentation showing their approval exists nor will any be forthcoming. Sorry, Paul.

They do not recomend drop headers or they recomend not using drop headers??? Big difference. 

As of right now it means Paul has to waste time repiping his boiler for absolutely no reason either way which really sucks.  

Not much of a difference in my eyes.  

STEAM DOCTOR

There are other ways to satisfy inspectors. Tiz the season....... (for the sake of accuracy,  this is meant in jest). 

MaxMercy

I'm assuming the inspector didn't red tag the boiler. Is there a certain window into which the boiler must be brought into "compliance"?

ethicalpaul

No, he didn't put a red tag on it, but my understanding is that he should have. I think I have a year that the permit can remain open.

I will have him come back with the other issues all addressed and ask him to agree that the boiler is safe and operating. Then if he refuses I will ask for the actual red tag with the violations listed. Then I will see what the appeal process is like.

If I get fed up on a warm saturday I might repipe it.

STEAM DOCTOR

Maybe one riser dropped and one riser standard. 

ethicalpaul

That was suggested some time ago so that I could test one against the other with my valves but at this point, I'll just do whatever I think will get it approved.

I could even tear down my 2nd steam supply, the manual only wants one. I wouldn't want to go against Peerless' recommendations! They have lost some of my good will I must say.

JohnNY

STEAM DOCTOR said:

JohnNY said:

Are you ready for this?

The rep referred me to Peerless technical directly.
I just got off the phone with Peerless and the official word from Tech Support is that they "Do not recommend drop headers", therefore, no such documentation showing their approval exists nor will any be forthcoming.

Sorry, Paul.

They do not recomend drop headers or they recomend not using drop headers??? Big difference. 

If it is not in the manual as a listed piping configuration then it is neither approved nor recommended.

Don't shoot the messenger.

SlamDunk

Their engineers and lawyers approved the manual. Tech support probably had it drilled into their heads not to stray from it.

Burnham Independence I&O manual illustrates a drop header as an alternate piping method. Kinda makes you think it isn't the preferred method but at least they provided the illustration for inspectors to use and one less letter for them to write or phone call to field.

Canucker

What's the reason for it not being an approved method? Uses too much ink in the manual?

Fred

Peerless does recommend a drop header but that doesn't mean that there isn't value and purpose to them. You might be better off getting a technical document or white paper from an industry expert that explains the purpose and value and showing it to the inspector. Better yet, if you can get it to him before he comes back, he may read it and consult with others of his peers and come with a different mindset. It's worth a try.

nde

Man tough break, I am with Fred collect some examples with reasons why and have a little presentation! Worth a try and better than repiping.

Having looked at their manuals a fair bit over the last year when researching new boilers I am not sure if this disclaimer was always there or they just added it!?!?!

any installation or maintenance techniques described in any of this literature should not be attempted by homeowners.

ethicalpaul

A lot of their documents have warnings like that. Their warranty is void if you DIY. They won't accept any communication to speak of from homeowners. I used to work in manufacturing so I understand some of this from a liability and business standpoint.

I knew there were risks when I started this. So I'm not mad at them, just a little disappointed. I will gather my information and have it ready. Everything will work out one way or another. I like working on my steam system, and I have already proven that the manufacturer's recommended installation works, see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IymyZB4wlI