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Hot water baseboard heating

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  • baseboardheathelp
    baseboardheathelp Member Posts: 141
    hot water baseboard heat

    can someone please tell me how long we should expect it to take for the heat to go up 1 degree? we have called alpine, and they will not let us talk to the engineers, and the rep said he cannot answer this.  we are not getting a straight answer.  the heat was at 64 degrees all day, and we bumped it up to 70 on the thermostat.  an hour has gone by, and it is onl at 65.  it took 3 hours a few days ago to go from 65 to 66.  what can we expect from the alpine 80?  I know it is slower than our old burnham, and I do wish we were informed of this, but this seems terribly slow, and we have just been informed that the company does not know what else to do at this time. htp and alpine reps have come and confirmed their products are working correctly.  supply and return temps were done, I believe I posted these a ways back, but I will look for those numbers again
  • baseboardheathelp
    baseboardheathelp Member Posts: 141
    hot water baseboard heat

    ok they said the supply and return are correct. supply is 180 degrees and return is 160.
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,516
    edited January 2014
    It depends

    There is no fixed answer to your question. It depends on several factors, boiler sizing, distribution sizing, heat emitter sizing, heat loss of the structure, control settings.



    All of these things have been brought up multiple times here, though in a scattered fashion.



    The only reasonable way to get a fair estimate at that question is to start from a heat loss calc and then factor in the things listed above as well as your setback temp. If someone wants to take the time to do all that, then you'll get an accurate answer. Otherwise, they're just guessing.



    Again, I think you need to re-align your expectations with what the system is capable of doing. It's not simply a matter of what you can expect from " the Alpine". Any other mod/con of the same size would give you the same results under the same circumstances. You've got a system that is substantially more efficient than the energy hog that you had. That comes at the slight cost of adjusting your life style.



    I've had cars that could do a 1/4 mile in 12 seconds, but they got about 10 mpg. I've got one that takes twice that long but gets 30 mpg. Which would you choose to drive on a regular basis?
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • baseboardheathelp
    baseboardheathelp Member Posts: 141
    hotwater baseboard heat

    ok thanks for the honest answer ironman.  can this change throughout the day?  for example, it normally takes us 1.5 hour to go from 58 to 64.  we typically set back to 58 at night, and leave it at 62-64 during the day, and when we get home from work, we try to set it higher, but this is when it takes several hours to go from 64 and up.  it is usually at 62-64 all day while we are at work, for several hours, and then we try to set higher after work,  it takes hours.  so, in short, it is fairly reasonable until 65 degrees, then it seems to get stuck.  we have been told that since it sits at 62-64 all day, it should not take too long to go a few degrees up from there, but it does.  does this sound normal, or does this seem like something is wrong?  the company said it seems wrong, but that they cannot do anything further.the boiler is sized right for the home, we had the heat loss calc done, but I'm not sure of the other things you mentioned.  All I know is we have insulation throughout the house, 4 inches blown into the walls, and we just had the attic sealed and added more insulation to the attic and our r level is 38
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,516
    Sounds Right

    The closer the room temp gets to the supply water temp, the slower the heat transfer will be from the rad to the air.



    Example: if you have 58* room air and 150* water temp, that's a 92* delta T. If you have 65* air and 150* water, that's an 85* delta T. Basic rule of thermodynamics: heat travels toward cold. The greater the temp difference (delta T), the faster heat will travel. 92* is greater than 85*. Heat output will be greater at 92* delta than 85* delta T.
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • baseboardheathelp
    baseboardheathelp Member Posts: 141
    hot water baseboard heating

    ok that is very interesting ironman.  so then the higher we want the heat, we should expect it to heat at a slower rate since the Delta t is lower? now will the alpine increase the water temp at all in order to make this pace faster, or no?  I know the temps on the alpine change drastically in order to be energy efficient.
  • CMadatMe
    CMadatMe Member Posts: 3,086
    edited January 2014
    There is no Way

    There should be TWO SUPPLY AND RETURN TEMPS NOT ONE....The boiler is piped primary secondary, in essence two separate systems. The boiler or primary side delta-t is constantly changing, ie, modulation.. They system of primary side will have a different delta-t. It is 99.9% mathematically impossible for both sides to have the exact same supply and return water temp. Here is the reason why.



    The boiler/primary side has a fixed speed pump that the boiler mfg sized to move a specific flow rate each and every time it fires, You cannot no matter how hard you try change that. In this case its moving 7.3gpm in an Alpine 80.



    Your system/secondary has its own flow rate dependent on what zone or zones are calling and that is always changing. The other factor is the system side pump. It again is a fixed speed pump and is always going to operate on its operating curve. In a multiple zone system one, two or maybe all zones are going to be over pumped.



    In order for you to have a 20 degree delta out of that Alpine you would have to to be in high fire constantly, move the entire 7.3gpm out of the primary/boiler side into the secondary side, the secondary side would only need exactly 7.3gpm at all times and you had perfect matching boiler and system delta-t's. The odds of all this happening in harmony at all times is scientifically and mathematically impossible.



    The question is when all heating zones are open and calling. The system side supply and return temps should be taken at the system side of the supply and return closely spaced tee's



    1. What is the boiler supply temp

    2. What is the boiler return temp

    3. What is the secondary/system supply temp

    4. What is the secondary/system return temp



    From the pics the indirect looks to be piped on the secondary side. You then shut off the heating zones, open the indirect zones and take another set of readings. I have to say that I'm surprised but again we are only hearing your side of the story.

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  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,516
    edited January 2014
    Depends

    Two things effect the water temp: the reset curve based on outdoor temp and the "boost" function. Both are adjustable.



    Your old boiler didn't have either of these and constantly maintained 180*+ water temp. That's why your system responded quicker from setback. Very wasteful, though.



    Remember, setback is not saving energy: it's wasting it. Especially the more "boost" that kicks in.



    Another automobile parable: your driving on flat ground at 55 mph. After a while, you begin to let off of the gas and the vehicle begins to coast and slow down. Eventually, you decide to speed back up to 55 mph. You can't accomplish this by slightly depressing the accelerator and holding it at the same spot where you had it before. You have to press it down to the point that it shifts into passing gear to get back to 55mph. This uses more gas than if you held it steady at 55. That's what the "boost" feature is doing on your boiler. It's playing catchup because you let the system coast and slow down.
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • baseboardheathelp
    baseboardheathelp Member Posts: 141
    hot water baseboard heat

    ok thanks for the info.  it is cold here today, about 5 degrees.  is several hours per 1 degree not alarming based on this outdoor temp?  The heat will not go above 66, and it has been several hours.  We will lessen the degrees we set back at night to see if that does anything, but our bedroom is on the 2nd floor, and the heat rises, so it really gets too hot up there if we do not set back at night. I hate the thought of having to open a window in the winter because this burner can't set back.   we recently got our first gas bill, and it wasn't all that much different than the oil bill.  Do other people like the Alpine?  we have read a lot of complaints online about how slow it is from others who have one
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,516
    Your location

    I don't remember your location, but 5* is probably at or near design temp. That's the temp at which your SYSTEM will just keep up with the heat loss of the house. Tying to get it to raise the temp inside under that circumstance is asking more than the SYSTEM was designed for.



    Again, you have a SYSTEM, not just a boiler. Every component plays a part in getting the heat from the fuel all the way into the house. Like a chain, it's only as strong as its weakest link. It's not anything peculiar to the Alpine. Any mod/con would operate the same. People always want to blame the appliance when the fault almost always lies elsewhere.



    If any component in your system is only capable of carrying 50k btu's, it doesn't matter that the boiler can produce 80k btu's. 50k btu's are all your gonna get.
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • baseboardheathelp
    baseboardheathelp Member Posts: 141
    hot water baseboard heat

    ok so I am assuming if it were warmer out, say 30 and not 5, the heat should heat up faster? and not just maintain the heat loss?  is there a calculation out there that we can do to determine how high our heat can go based on our boiler, heat loss calc, and outdoor temp?  while it is 5 out today, it is predicted to be in the negatives this week.  will this mean the system will heat even slower, and maybe not get to as high a temp?  it's frusterating that we cannot get to a desired temperature that we want.  there are days when we need to raise the temp, say if we have guests over, or the other day when our pipe froze!. 
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    Exactly

    Get rid of your setback.  Just for a few weeks.  Humor us.  If the system does not keep up, your contractor has not done their job.  If it does, then (and only then) you can start playing with setbacks.  Start with 2ºF and see if that works.  Report back.
  • baseboardheathelp
    baseboardheathelp Member Posts: 141
    hot water baseboard heat

    I was just told that our outdoor reset disables at 25 degrees, and the water temp gets to 180 degrees in 10 minutes.  so with this information, does it seem like it is working right or no?    after 2.5 hours of trying to get above 66 degrees, I gave up yesterday.  even though it was 5 degrees out, the water should have been 180 degrees, and the delta, yes, would have been lower than at 58 degrees, but should it be slowing down to this point with the water temp supposedly at 180?  I did not set back as much last night, and I will try this out for a few days and keep you posted.
  • CMadatMe
    CMadatMe Member Posts: 3,086
    You Do Realize

    That just because the boiler may be making 180 degree water doesn't mean that its in high fire nor does it mean 180 degree water is going out to the system side. For the 100th time, your piped primary secondary.

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  • Harvey Ramer
    Harvey Ramer Member Posts: 2,261
    edited January 2014
    A simple effective solution.

    Quit turning down the heat. Set it at a comfortable temp and let it there. When you want your bedroom cooler, shut the vents on the baseboard and close the bedroom door. If you can't shut the vents on the baseboard replace it with baseboard that you can.



    Or, you can keep turning your heat up and down and fussing about it.



    When is the last time you popped the cover off the baseboard and vacuumed out the fins? When they get dirty it really slows down the heat transfer.



    At this point my sympathies are with the contractor.
  • baseboardheathelp
    baseboardheathelp Member Posts: 141
    hot water baseboard heating

    the contracting company are the ones that are saying that something is wrong, and that it should not be working like this.
  • CMadatMe
    CMadatMe Member Posts: 3,086
    Install The

    Optional system side supply sensor offered for the Alpine. This way the boiler will reset off the system supply not the boiler supply temp.

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  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,516
    Unfortunately...

    Your contractor is clueless. That is obvious to all and therefore their statements should be taken with a grain of salt.



    Again, you have to think in terms of a complete SYSTEM that's heating your house, not just a boiler. If your BB rads are not capable of 72k btu output, for whatever reason, then you're not gonna get the full capacity of the boiler. I know it's on here somewhere, but can you post again the total lineal footage of your BB? Just the length of the fins, not the enclosures.



    Cleaning your BB has been brought up by myself and others. Have you tried that?



    Still, setback is your main problem. Is your sleeping area zoned separately where you can just use moderate setback there and leave the rest of the house at one constant temp?
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,516
    25* base line?

    The curve is not set properly. The baseline number should not be 25*, but whatever the design temp is for your locale (probably 0-10* outside). Setting it properly won't correct the obstacle of using setback, but would give you better economy.



    The fact that your contractor did not plot the proper reset curve leads me to believe they have not setup the boost function either. 25* baseline is the factory default setting.
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • baseboardheathelp
    baseboardheathelp Member Posts: 141
    hot water baseboard heat

    not sure if my last post worked. apologies if it made it on here 2 times. 56.5 ft 1st floor baseboard, and 23.5 2nd floor. we have a zone on 2nd floor, but never really use it b/c the heat rises up there and heats it anyways. we set back less last night, 61 instead of 58, and it has been stuck at 63 for 3 hours, not moving up. alpine rep said we should be able to set back 2-5 dgerees with no problem.  
  • CMadatMe
    CMadatMe Member Posts: 3,086
    Capable Output

    103 ft of board is 103x 560x = 57,680 btu/hr - Now break it up into the zones. I'm keep preaching it, need boiler supply, return temps and system supply, return temps.

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  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,516
    40k btu's

    That's what your BB is capable of with 170* AVERAGE water temp. That's assuming its clean and in good shape.



    What was the heat loss for your house? If it's more than 40k btu's, your BB are insufficient to keep up, let alone over come setback.



    If your boiler had been vented with CPVC or PPL, you could set the supply temp a little higher, but not with PVC vent. The burner is already down firing at higher water temps to protect the PVC venting which is limited to 149* vent temp.



    The solution is not changing the venting material, but adding more radiation. Your old boiler was probably set to a higher temp to compensate for the marginal radiation (BB).
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • baseboardheathelp
    baseboardheathelp Member Posts: 141
    hot water baseboard heat

    Chris, the heat temps are posted in an earlier post.  my husband bought a thermo gun and took and posted all the temps.

    heat loss calc stated he had enough baseboard. heat loss is 45, 012. 31, 742 on the 1st floor.  outdoor temp 3 and indoor temp 70, water 180.  are you now saying we do not have enough baseboard?? we were told these numbers say we have enough baseboard
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,516
    80' of BB

    Chris,

    She said 56.5 + 23.5. That's 80', not 103'.



    As I posted previously, it a mis-conception to use 560 or 580 btu's per foot. Those numbers apply with 180* water @ 4 gpm.



    At 170* average water @ 2gpm, the output is 500 per foot.
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,516
    500 btu's per foot

    That's what you'll get with 170* AVERAGE water temp @2 gpm. Average water temp is the the supply (180) + the return (160) / 2 = 170*.



    You don't have 180* water throughout your system. You average 170*. That's the number you have to use.



    You show a heat loss of 45k btu's. Your baseboard is capable of 40k btu's. You don't have enough to keep up, let alone overcome setback.
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • CMadatMe
    CMadatMe Member Posts: 3,086
    At 1GPM

    Flow rate with 180 degree water its 560 for SunTemp - Not sure what brand. Thanks for the math correction on the footage..

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  • CMadatMe
    CMadatMe Member Posts: 3,086
    edited January 2014
    Hey Bob

    What disgust me about this entire ordeal. Nobody measured system side delta's at all. Everyone went right to the boiler. Dumb move if you ask me. Not too hard to figure out what your delivering out of the boiler and out of the system. The misconception that the boiler side is what your getting on the secondary side shows lack of hydronic understanding IMO.

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  • CMadatMe
    CMadatMe Member Posts: 3,086
    Those Temps

    Are boiler supply and return - What about system side supply and return? At the same time.

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  • RobG
    RobG Member Posts: 1,850
    Baseboard

    Another thing being overlooked is that the house is two zones. The upstairs zone is not being used, so only 56.5 feet of baseboard are being utilized.



    Rob
  • knotgrumpy
    knotgrumpy Member Posts: 211
    I'd like to see those as well

    HWBH can you indulge me and take your IR thermometer and take readings where I have put 4 arrows in this pic?  Do it while you are trying to get the downstairs up to temp.



    Chris - you'll notice they had to correct a mistake and here is no longer a straight run or 'clean shot' past the CST's.  I'm sure it is pretty turbulent there.
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,516
    Agreed

    Chris,

    The lack of hydronic knowledge, by the contractor and the two "reps" is amazing. It's normal for a homeowner to blame the appliance, but for those in the industry to do the same shows how desperately we need competent people in this trade.



    If you'll look back at earlier posts, you'll see the contractor was ready to pull the 80k Alpine and put in a 105k one. The so-called "reps" advised him to do this!
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,516
    Good point Rob

    I caught that too after reading her post on that the second time.
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
    edited January 2014
    May I second

    Third, and forth checking supply/ return temps at each baseboard location, and where the base board distribution manifolds are where knotgrumpy has his arrows drawn in the pic last post.



    You have the tool now let's use it! Make sure you use some frog tape or black tape where you take your readings. Infra red does not give good reading on shiny surfaces. Also hold the gun right up to the area you are shooting otherwise you will shoot a large area giving false readings.



    Just forget about the boiler for a while.
  • baseboardheathelp
    baseboardheathelp Member Posts: 141
    hot water baseboard heat

    ok I'm not sure how to check the supply/return at the baseboard location, so I would need instructions for that.  but I did just get temp readings for the 4 spots with arrows on the pics.  I turned up the heat, waited about 5-10 min, then went to take the readings.  I put black tape on the spots, and held the gun close to it.  so from the top arrow in the picture to the bottom, the readings are as follows:



    116.8 degrees and the boiler was at 148

    117.3 and the boiler was at 151

    122 and boiler at 159

    169.9 and boiler at 174



    I then took the readings again when the boiler got a bit warmer, which was only a few minutes later, and again, here are the results from top to bottom:

    161 degrees and boiler was at 186

    175.3 and boiler was at 187

    134 and boiler was at 173**I took this one last, and something called "energy saver purge" kicked on and the boiler temp started dropping

    164.5 and boiler was at 182



    again, I turned up the heat, waited 5 to 10 minutes before taking the readings, and both sets of readings took about 5 min.  the boiler is now at 173 saying "running energy save on"



    how did I do?!  my first time using the infrared gun
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
    Now what are the baseboard

    Temps.



    Shoot each one at each end where the element is. Want to see if the heat is getting to the emitter.



    Are all zones on and set to same temps?
  • baseboardheathelp
    baseboardheathelp Member Posts: 141
    hot water baseboard heat

    I just have the downstairs zone on.  you want me to take a reading on each end of every baseboard?  I'm not sure what the element is, so I'm not fully sure where to take the reading. 
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
    Each

    One yes.



    Each end the element is the piping inside you can shoot inside get a reading on each end.



    All zones on.
  • knotgrumpy
    knotgrumpy Member Posts: 211
    Good

    On the baseboard there will probably be copper tubing or steel pipe coming out of the floor on each end. One will be the inlet and one the outlet.  Don't worry about which is which.  Just call it side A and side B.  Put some tape on those pipes and use your gun.

    I've got a feeling you will answer some questions all on your own.
  • baseboardheathelp
    baseboardheathelp Member Posts: 141
    hot water baseboard heat

    ok this may take some time.  do I need to put the black tape on the piping on each end where I am taking the reading? I am assuming yes?
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
    edited January 2014
    Yes

    You have the right idea.



    Want to confirm each base board is getting a reasonable supply temp.



    If you know which base boards are first in the loop, and last in each zone list the temps accordingly.

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