Hot water baseboard heating

Rich_49

Bumble Bee

is not a good candidate for this application .  If and when both zones are calling it will only do head of 10.5 feet . . At these conditions neither zone will receive what it needs and compound the problem .  008 VDT or 0013VDT are the only choices to address this problem

Weezbo

this gauge ,

seems to mean to me just looking at it that you have a 1 -> 3 degree temp margin per hour like radiant heat ,

that is reasonable expectation for the energy management of the btu's ...



out door reset makes many "decisions" on out door temps , mood swings outdoors it does not predict when it will rain for example so , it is reactive ...



i think set back thermostats are sooo last century , a product brought about to control field side ,

i liked the caleffi control , yet because of parts availability,.....

with room sensors .

Taco bought it , there , is a better management system. it can link to programs in a computer for systems with more complexities .

thermostats are somewhat low brow management systems, sensors on the other hand are a bit more "Clever" .:)

SWEI

Conventional thermostats

can only tell the system two things, no matter how fancy the computer inside them:



I'm too cold.

or

I'm too hot.



That's it.



Not "I'm getting a bit cool here" or "I'm warming up very fast" or any of the other things a smart control system really needs to know.



A simple 0-10V analog interface (which runs on the same two wires) can work wonders with the right logic behind it.

baseboardheathelp

hot water baseboard heat

yes our computer screen on the alpine looks like that.  the heat is on and the temp is reading 141, and when I turned on the hote water, the temp went to 154 in 2 minutes of running the hot water

knotgrumpy

Temp

Thanks.  I'm not a heating pro, but I think on a hot water demand the boiler should put out hotter water on priority.  I'm sure Rich or Bob or SWEI or Wheezbo can straighten me out.



Oh, what is your outside temp today?

Ironman

Temp

It should be set to at least 180*, 190* tops.



It probably hadn't been in the domestic call long enough to get there. The OP said it had only been heating domestics for 2 minutes.



The other thing to adjust, as mentioned, is the aquastat on the indirect tank. Set it up to 160* and after the tank is heated up, run one faucet and adjust the mixing valve to give you 120* hot water at the faucet.



The aquastat is the little gray box on the tank. Remove the cover and turn the dail til the 160 mark on the dail aligns with the arrow on the side.



The mixing valve adjusts by turning the green dail or raising it and turning. I'm not sure on that one because we carry the Honeywell one.

knotgrumpy

So

So if they fill the tub again and watch the temp it should give a better indication of how hot the boiler is supplying the water to the indirect?



Even that is a little deceptive, because the indirect is being fed outside of the primary loop, so temps could be lower after being mixed with returns from baseboards.



Indirect should really come off of the primary I would think to avoid that mixing down.



At least we have a water temp after 200 + posts :-)

Rich_49

We are

almost there Knotgrumpy . Maybe by the next visit the installer will bring a properly sized space heating pump and spend 30 minutes on the phone with Burnham tech learning how to properly set this one up . Although I believe we would have a better shot if the new thread poster Jeremy would go do this work for us .  baseboardheathelp , is Jeremy your brother ?  If so don't count on seeing him for awhile he will be reading .LOL

knotgrumpy

Rich

I'm a little concerned that the way they 'fixed' the reversed primary supply and return at the closely spaced tees may screw up the whole hydraulic separation aspect of primary/secondary.  If you look, there is no straight run before or after the tees.  I think that matters, but I don't remember the minimums off hand.



Rather than change the piping on the boiler side, they made a convoluted roundabout on the secondary side.  I don't know why?  They could have done less work and saved the straight runs before and after the tees.



knotgrumpy

Rich_49

That there

would be why we always uses unions right at the equipment . Did not notice that before , luckily they did not use an old school air scoop . I do not particularly like that but it should work

Ironman

Tees

The attachment shows the proper spacing for the Tees. 8 pipe diameters of straight pipe incoming, 4 pipe diameters of straight pipe outgoing (minimum).

knotgrumpy

Whoops

Thanks, Bob.  That's the diagram I remember.

Steamfitter66

To clarify

The taco 007 was one of the first cartridge circulators in wide use and was not designed around radiant heat and pex pipe it was designed for copper pipe,cast iron boilers and baseboard. All of which were in wide use at the time of its creation.

An 007 has little use in radiant. Take them out all the time and 99 times out of 100 a 15-58 is the correct pump.

I dont kneel at the alter of Grundfos but it works

PLs are a great pump as well when the floe gets a little higher. Just not a big Taco fan and B&G small stuff is Chinese crap.

baseboardheathelp

hot water baseboard heat

the hot water in the tank is set for 140 degrees.  I'm not fully sure what the aquastat is, but they told us setting it higher than 140 will void the warrenty.  so, will having them put a 008 taco pump in fix all the problems?  I can run the bath tomorrow and check what temp the boiler is at. what temp should the boiler be reading at while the bath is running with hot water? they told us that it takes 3 minutes of the bath running for the hot water heater to call for the boiler to start making water, and it takes about 1 more minute after that for the boiler to kick in to produce hot water.  our bath runs about 6 gallons per minute

Rich_49

Unfortunately

We can only guess at the piping system and its true equivalent lengths . As educated of a guess that I could make is that the 008VDT would be sufficient with no IFC installed . This should add right around 13 feet head to the space heating circuits .  Again , just a guess from 5.5 hours away . 

  DHW going out of mixer is 118* I believe you stated , depending on your preferences you may opt for a mixed temp of 105-110* , HTP does limit the warranty in excess of 140* operating temp  Anything higher than that usually enables you to enforce the 7 Year commercial warranty . Take this into consideration though the stainless steel tank in their high mass boilers have a 12 year warranty . Hmm  , interesting gamble .  Your Space heating ODR ratio should probably be no more than point 6 (.6) with the design temp set at 184* . , this would put your warmest day SWT at 140* . I would do this ratio until and if you ever have the piping and baseboard redone . My advice for first floor is a manifold and each rooms heat get a homerun from the manifold . This action will drastically increase your response time and efficiency .

    What this 008 pump will change is the flowrate to this unknown heating circuit and insure that the flow will always match the heat loss of that zone , in other words the water returning will be 20 * cooler than the supply water that went out . Tell them to place the sensors properly and set the dial inside the box to the #4 ( this is 20*) .  

Do not allow them to leave without calling Burnham Tech support and being walked through the set up process and verifying what they have done .

 I expect the next time we talk you should be in much better shape . 

Remember that we are not there and are making educated guesses based on years of experience . If 008 does not work you will require 0013 . Do not think this is the case . If you have obtained the oh so important thermo devices Weezbo  has rightly touted please check the supply temp going out and the return temp coming back while heating zone is on . Supply is to the left of the 2 Tees near boiler and return is on the right now .  Good luck . If you have any questions while they are there I will be available as long as I am not in a basement  

Weezbo

knot grumpy ,

Touche!

are you Sure you are not Grumpy? i remember Grumpy and that is something he would have said : ))

*~//: )

Weezbo

Ironman ,

there is a little delta Bump out on top of a valve stem underneath the "Hood" of that shiney green gizmo ..:)



the cap is some what like the KEY on a pressure differential manifold , it comes off the indent is in form of a DELTA, ( triangle ) then , inscribed on the valve are "Directions" for the habby homeowner with an arrow that says HOT .

lol and Cooler ...



i think most folks can mange that control once the cap/key is off and in hand...



with the gauge it is like you say ... let a trickle out on the hot at a nearby sink look at the gauge ,



turn dial.



one notch is say = to X degrees ok so then you go

if that made it 123 and it was 120 i will turn it the other way to cool it down ,!

so you dial it back that one notch and one more for "Good Luck" lol

Then.....

it ought read 117 Wow! Whadda Smokin Deal! : )

it really Does work like that !



Yay!



then when you get it to where you can turn on the hot water full blast and it read as warm as You want it to be while you live there leave it alone dont mess with it ..call it Good...

put the cap back on it ...



it really is a wonderful thing to know the home owner is habby now that they have had a chance to set the Hot water Straight ! : )





usually it has some limited access type hassle, because the folks who make them prolly do not want some vindictive kid , turning the heat up full blast to get someone out of the bath room ...



the Honeywell ones are nice too ... basically the same in the way they work ,



it is really like we have all hinted at bump a paco gauge into a T and badda bing ! "DialAble"!



*~//: )

Ironman

Warranty Void?

I don't think so.



Once again, your installer is mis-informed; or just can read plain English.



The HTP warranty states that if the operating temp is set above 140*, then the tank falls under the commercial warranty of 7 years.



It also states that the warranty IS void if there's no vacuum relief valve. I didn't see one installed on yours. That means the installer voided your warranty - oops, I found it, they can't get you for that.



It also states that it's your responsibility to keep the water ph between 6-8, the hardness below 7 grains and the chlorine below 100 ppm. Have you done that? How would you do that? How can you prove you've done that? Can they prove you haven't?



Furthermore, it states that if you can't produce the original sales receipt, the tank warranty reverts to 10 years from the date of manufacture. A lot of legalese to cover their back side if they choose to use it.



If the tank did began leaking with the aquastat set above 140* and someone set it back below 140* before a tech or rep saw it, how would they know it had been set higher?



The point I'm trying to make is this: if they want to find a way to deny coverage, they're gonna do it.



Again, the aquastat if the small gray box on the side of the indirect, below the HTP label, with an armored cable connected.

Timco

Similar

Only time I ever heard of anything like this, the Munchkin had no input for priority so it was married to the ODR's set point instead of making 180.



Also, with no priority, the zone pumps never cut off and the indirect was just another zone that ran with the rest of the house.



Boiler and pumps sized fine otherwise.

baseboardheathelp

hot water baseboard heat

my husband said when we had the 007 pump in, they told him the supply and return was 180 and coming back at 160, and that this was accurate.  we do not have this info with the 011 in yet, but I do plan to get a thermometer

PLUMMER

HEC-2 bumblebee

Has 4 speed ranges. #4 shows 2gpm@13'. 4gpm@11'....10gpm@7'. To give an idea, speed 1 is all under 4' head.



The older munchkins required a kit called vision 1 to add the priority IDW control, our rep said that their 80 would actually do 110-120k when in priority since the HE was the same as the 120.



After all this the HO hasn't hit the store for a couple of strap ons. Would help a lot , even for piece of mind, and keep mr. Weezbo happy too.



I would think on priority if all is working right, there should be way more than a 13 rise with only the IDW running. Test again and see what it reaches after a full cycle

Harvey Ramer

WOW!!

This is a long thread! Interesting though.



Here is something that might be worthwhile to check.

The old boiler was cast iron. Lots of iron oxide. Even in the new system they have a lot of dissimilar metals AND black iron for the header piping.

It is entirely possible that the heat exchanger in the boiler and the Water Heater has become partially clogged with Iron Oxides and Black Magnetite. 



Ways to determine if this is the case.

Measure the Flue temperature (boiler exhaust temp) and look at the boiler water supply and return temp at the same time.

Let a little bit of water out of the boiler drain and see what color it is.



Harvey Ramer

knotgrumpy

Wheezbo

I just took a 'selfie' for you.

RobG

Flue gas temp

Harvey, to measure the flue gas temp there has to be a hole in the exhaust pipe. I don't see a plug in the exhaust in any of the pictures, which means a gas analyses was probably never done either! (unless the plug is hiding where it cant be seen).

Harvey Ramer

Well

there is something there. Either a spot on the pipe or a little dab of caulk or something. Either way there wouldn't have been any clogging rearing it's ugly head during initial startup.

Weezbo

i see a dot above the wing handle of a brass flange upon

the grey exhaust side how they balanced both tmp readouts i am not certain because the pics are not entirely "User Friendly" when it comes to diagnosis ...



one thing that i would like to touch upon again is incoming temps on the cold water and efficentcy on the hot water , however if we could each give a single example of this strategy , it might be helpful .

so let me revisit a piece that i already posted ....

.

info

Grundfos Comfort System Hot Water Recirculator System , UP15-10 SU7P TLC, 595916, Comfort Valve



Grundfos Comfort System - Hot Water Recirculation System The water circulation system that eliminates cold water runoff at the faucet using a bypass valve and pump with a timer to control water flow. Hot Water Recirculation - Special Features- The ultimate in convenience is having hot water instantly available at sinks, appliances and bathroom faucets. The elimination of time spent waiting is especially convenient...



each of us could describe at least one method or system of this aspect and describe how that too might be of benefit to a home owner . the installer and a community .



Dan is into District Heat and so i know this is not quite the same specific topic ,

yet it has the advantage to enlarge the perspective as it were on staring at the elephant and swearing it looks like a tree...



,http://www.retscreen.net/ang/home.php

baseboardheathelp

hot water baseboard heat

I just ran the bath for about 3 minutes on hot, then ran downstairs to get the temp reading on the computer screen of the boiler.  I watched the temp on the boiler for about 3 minutes go from 137 to 139, then I ran back up to the bath, and about 1 minute later, ice water was coming out.  during those 7 minutes, this is an estimate, but I would say the bath filled up about 25 to 30 gallons of water.  I know someone asked me to get a temp reading  on the boiler's computer screen while the bath was running

knotgrumpy

That was me

Thanks. 



So it looks like the boiler temp did not go above 139F on sustained call for DHW?



knotgrumpy

baseboardheathelp

hot water baseboard heat

I ran back upstairs at 139 temp reading, and yes in 60 seconds cold water was pouring out.  what temerature should the boiler have been reading at?  

knotgrumpy

I'm not sure

I am not sure if the boiler can bring the water temp up rapidly enough in the 6 minutes it takes to fill your tub at full tilt. I don't think ~ 140F water in the coil is going to win the battle against the cold water entering the tank, but I'll let one of the pros answer your question.



Hang in there.

Harvey Ramer

Here is the thing BBHH

I am calling you BBHH (baseboardheathelp) because it is more convenient and I think, a little more friendly :-)

Any one of us, here on the wall,could find out what the problem is, within the hour if we were at your place and looking and taking measurements from your system. Unfortunately, I for myself, as I suspect most others do, live quite a distance from your house. I hail from South Central PA.



So if we are to help you from here, we need you to do a couple of very important things. To do these things, it will require a small investment on your behalf. I think Weezbo has touched on this time and again, but we desperately need some temperature readings. You need to purchase at least 4 strap-on thermometers to be able to give us the info we need. You need to place the thermometers as follows. One on each heating pipe right where it comes out of the boiler. One on the hot water side of your water heater, BEFORE IT GOES THROUGH THE MIXING VALVE, and one on the cold side WATER FROM THE WELL OR WATER METER, going into your water heater. After you have the thermometers placed, fill up your tub with hot water and take measurements from all the thermometers in one minute increments.



Once we have these temperatures, the situation will become much clearer. At this point there are many things it could be. There could be to much water flowing to your faucets as was suggested before. (One thing to note, is that your old oil boiler most likely had a heating coil for your tap water, stuck right in the boiler.) These coils slow the water flow down quite a bit. Now you have a water heater and it zips right through. That would mean less heat is being transferred to the water that you need to be hot. Also, it could be the boiler? Perhaps the settings in the boiler control are not proper. There are so many things that could be causing this. To get to the bottom of it we need to start with a simple approach. PLEASE GET THE THERMOMETERS AND MEASURE THE TEMPS ON THE PIPES I MENTIONED TO YOU. After we have that we can start to narrow it down. It could be something as simple as your boiler control set to the wrong parameters.



Please do this, it will help us help you.   

baseboardheathelp

hot water baseboard heat

we are heading to Home Depot to get thermometers today.  we checked their website, and do not see anything called a strap on thermometer.  is it possibly called something else, or is there another store we should get them at?

Gordy

Menards has them

If you have one in your location. If you do they are in the plumbing department radiant heat section. About 20 bucks a piece.

DanHolohan

John

I tried to answer your email but your address came back as not valid. What I wrote was that the Wall will accept only certain formats for file attachments. If you want to send the picture to me I'll try to post it for you. Thanks. 

FrustratedandCold

thermometers

got to FW Webb, the Granite group or peabody supply, just ask the folks at the service desk, but they probably all close at noon today

JeremyN

Would an IR Thermometer work?

Instead of getting 4 strap on ones at $20 a pop?  The IR thermometer can be used for a number of other applications around the house as well.

baseboardheathelp

hot water baseboard heat

yea can I just get 1 infrared thermometer instead?  they have those in store, and that sounds much easier. let me know

Gordy

IR

Yes you can, but you must take notice to use a piece of frog tape on emissive surfaces when taking readings. Don't get the cheapest one either they are not created equal.



You can buy indoor outdoor thermometers and use the outdoor probe on the piping taping and insulating the probe. This gives the ability to not personally monitor and

MIN MAX temps are saved to see at your leisure. Most only read as high as 130* is the only draw back though. Good for radiant applications

Harvey Ramer

A strap on Thermometer

will be much better. Plus you are going to want to leave them on the system anyway. Something like this http://www.pexsupply.com/Mr-PEX-5240748-Strap-On-Pipe-Thermometer-for-3-8-1-5-Pipe-0-248F

That will be more accurate than a IR Thermometer and you can look at all four gauges at the same time.



You can also get an IR Thermometer to use for other stuff. They are very handy to have!



By the way, make sure you also have a thermometer, like the one you stick under your tongue when you are sick. We will be needing that in later steps. Let me correct myself. The thermometer that you stick under your tongue probably doesn't go high enough. Get one with a probe that will go well above 200º

  

baseboardheathelp

hot water baseboard heat

just got back from Home Depot and we got the IR thermometer, so hopefully that will do.  We plan to get the temperatures needed tomorrow. and when you say the IR thermometer is handy to have, what else would I possibly want to use this for??