Hot water baseboard heating

baseboardheathelp

we just converted from oil with a Burnham burner, 14 years old, to gas with a high efficiency Alpine burner, and we have baseboard heat.  The oil heat was quick, heating the house 5 to 10 degrees in about 15 minutes.  the gas heat with the Alpine is so slow, heating the house about 1 degree every 20 to 30 minutes.  is this normal? the company who installed it said it is, and that if we want it to be more efficient, we cannot turn the heat down.  this sounds crazy, and we do not want the heat so high while we sleep, and prefer to turn it down, but it is so slow to heat the house, and so it is cold in the morning for hours.  can someone elaborate or help with this?

Ironman

Setback

You're using setback which is counter-productive to the design and logic of a mod/con. Your boiler is trying to maintain as low a water temp with as low a fire for as long a time as is necessary. This not only produces the most efficiency, but also the most comfort. Setback does just the opposite.



There is a "boost" feature in the control which can be adjusted, but again, this is actually working against what the boiler is trying to accomplish. It's the manufacturer's compromise for people who won't give up setback.



The best thing you can do is set you thermostat at one temp and leave it there. If you want setback because it's more comfortable for sleeping, then I wouldn't use more than 4*. If the boiler then still has trouble recovering, the boost feature needs adjusting to match your life style.

baseboardheathelp

hot water baseboard heating

thank you for the reply.  I want to make sure I understand correctly.  Are you saying my boiler is working properly and the way it is supposed to then?  What exactly is set back?  This is a new term to me.  Will this actually be saving us money if we always have to leave the thermostat at a certain temperature?  if we set the thermostat back more than 4 degrees, it sounds like we should expect a longer time for the heat to rise then on this type of boiler?  I also should have mentioned that we also got a new hot water tank at the same time, and the hot water goes out after filling a bath tub only 3/4 of the way.  we already had the company come and adjust the hot water temperature.  Is this normal for the Alpine condensing high efficiency gas fired hot water boiler and superstor ultra indirect fired water heater?

Mark Eatherton

Potentially many problems...

As with any question on hydronics, there is only one correct answer, and that is "It depends…" But that's probably not what you wanted to hear. Without having an actual eye on your old and new systems, here are my observations, bad as they are.



1. If the system was properly sized, based on an actual heat loss calculation, the boiler sizes should be fairly consistent in BTUH capacity.



2. If your home is actually cooling down that many degrees F over night, you need to hire someone to come into your home and do a blower door test, identifying those air leaks/insulation needs and get them fixed ASAP.



3. If the old oil boiler was also doing your DHW through a tankless coil, it was ALWAYS sitting there, hot and ready. Such is not the case with your new Alpine boiler.



4. If the new boiler is using a good outdoor reset control (most do) your old system may not have been, which means when it got a call for heat, it ran up to its high limits (typically 180 degrees F). The new boiler bases its operating temperature on the outside air temperature, and will not hit high discharge temperatures until it gets REAL cold outside.



5. If your system piping is conducive, it might be a good idea to isolate the sleeping rooms from the other rooms, give it its own thermostat, and keep that zone turned down.



The shortage of DHW could be many things and will need to be determined by your installing contractor. It could be that your shower head or bath tub is exceeding the capacity of the storage tank/boiler combination. Although not acceptable, it could very well be normal. Consider changing out to a low flow shower head, or avoid showering with more than one person/machine using hot water at a given time. Not being familiar with the controls for that particular boiler, I can't say, but generally speaking, if the boiler is doing DHW, when it has a simultaneous call for heat and DHW, it is supposed to prioritize all output to the DHW for a certain period of time, typically 30 to 60 minutes. May be something as simple as adjusting that control.



It may just take some getting use to on your part. This is not your grandpas oil burning boiler any more.



Oh, and make DARNED sure your installer comes back to service the boiler at least in the first year, and then based on their observations, you may be able to stretch to once every two years, but you MUST maintain this new appliance, or it will go away… Like a red headed step child with freckles, a bad attitude and bad breath :-)



As for conserving energy, if the boiler is doing an outdoor reset control, then there is no need to turn your thermostat down. The conservation is being done at the point of generation, instead of the point of use. But as I said, if your home DOES cool down real quick, you need to address those issues separately.



The recovery rate sounds normal for a system being deeply set back in operating temperatures at night with an outdoor reset control controlling the boiler. In fact, if you had an A.I.R. programmable thermostat (Active Intelligent Recovery), it might turn down your house at 10 PM, but will start heating it up again at midnight due to the slow recovery capacity of the boiler and the outdoor reset program. The problem is, the thermostat and the boiler don't speak the same language… The thermostat speak ON/OFF and the boiler speaks highly intelligent outdoor reset digital…



Try keeping the thermostat set for one condition all the time, and if the boiler IS capable of maintaining THAT temperature, then it indicates it is OK. If it doesn't you may have other problems that need to be addressed. Gotta start somewhere...



ME

Ironman

Setback

Setback: temporarily setting the temp back on the thermostat. This is accompanied by setting it back up later.



And yes, it is more economical to leave it at one temp.



As far as your hot water issue goes, more info would be needed. Normally, a mod/con with an indirect will give you virtually unlimited hot water. It could have been the setting or it could be in how it was piped and what control strategy was used. If the tub allows more than 4-5 gallons per minute flow, that could be the issue too. Time how long it takes to fill a five gallon bucket (hot only). If it's more than 4-5 gpm, slow download your fill rate and the system should keep up.



If you post some pics of the boiler and its near piping and controls, that may be helpful.

Mark Eatherton

Good point Bob...

If the flow for the tub is high (and it typically is), you can expect to run out of hot water. Slow the flow and feel the heat :-)



I trained my wife to adjust the tub filler to a certain point that takes her 20 minutes to fill the tub, but it is NICE and HOT when she jumps in after the news, and that's with 50K btuH boiler and 80 gallon reverse indirect, Didi I mention that I think she's part lobster? :-)



ME

baseboardheathelp

hot water baseboard heat

hi, here are some pictures of the burner, hot water tank, and pipes.  let me know if you need others. thanks

Ironman

Mine too, Mark

My wife does the same before going to bed.



The thing that helps my system keep up is that I primarily use an outdoor wood boiler with 300 gallons of buffer and a 20 plate h.e. at the tank. That gives me about 6 gpm constant hot water.



A wife, six daughters and a teenage son can really go through some hot water.

Ironman

It Appears...

To be piped and controlled correctly.



I can't get the pics to enlarge without getting fuzzy.



What size (btu) is the Alpine? If it's 105k or above, a larger circ on the indirect may be beneficial. It appears there's a Taco 007 on there now.

baseboardheathelp

hot water baseboard heating

hi, the Alpine is an 80, not a 105.  any thoughts on this?  we got 3 different quotes before picking a plumber, and all 3 plumbers recommended 3 different size alpines.  let me know what you think.  do you need different pictures?

Rich_49

What size

SuperStor is that ? Also is the pump in fact a 007 for the indirect ? Please tell the model number of Indirect also ,  SSU-45DW , SSU-45 would be an example of needed information

baseboardheathelp

hot water baseboard heating

also, not sure if this makes a difference or not, but my bath tub was filling fully and staying warm up until today, and today was much colder and snowy.  our first snow in this house so I can't compare it to the old oil burner

baseboardheathelp

hot water baseboard heating

hi, the model number on the hot water tank is ssu-45.  I'm not sure where to locate the pump information..I'm not sure what the pump looks like.  let me know.  I do see something that says Taco, colts 115, hz 60,  ax press 125 psi, max water temp 110 C 230 F.  is this what you were looking for?  thanks

Rich_49

Green Vertical

pump . Should have the model number right on the cover . Number beginning with 00 , possibly 007 , 0010

baseboardheathelp

hot water baseboard heating

ok, the green one is Taco 007-F5.  although model info is upside down.  what do you mean I didn't get what I didn't pay for and it won't be what I want???

Rich_49

That

saying is always there and has been for quite sometime , it is very similar as Mr Eatherton's below his name . 

    OK . The SSU-45 indirect requires 10 GPM at 7.9 ft head as per the manufacturer and the boiler water during DHW production must be 180* . I install HTP almost exclusively .  Your plumber used a check valve in the supply line which is piped to the wrong tapping (supply should be the top) which adds head to overcome with the pump . The 007 will not meet these requirements , the 0010 would have been my choice .  Another thing about indirects is that you are well served if one stores the water in the tank at 140*-160* and mixes that water down to 115*-120* , this practice increases your storage capacity and will most probably give you all the water that you require . Has worked for me and my end users without fail . I use Taco 5000 series DHW mixing valves . This pump must be changed for the properly sized pump .  Below I attached the language about this pump selection directly out of the Alpine Manual .

58 103448-02 - 6/13

58 103448-02 - 6/13

Figure 38: Near Boiler Piping - Heating Plus Indirect Water Heater

VI. Water Piping and Trim C. Standard Installation Requirements (continued)C. Standard Installation Requirements (continued)

CAUTION

It is the installers responsibility to select pumps

and boiler piping configurations that provide the

proper flow rates and performance for the boiler

and indirect water heater.



  As far as the heating goes in the house I agree with all said above . Maybe the outdoor reset is not set at the proper ratio or was not programmed properly by the installer .  Where are you located ?  Also , VERY IMPORTANT , could you tell me the model number on the Black pump ?

  

baseboardheathelp

hot water base board heating

ok thanks for the info.  just so I understand, what will the 010 vs the 007 do differently?  the company was supposed to come back today, but what a no show, and said they will be here tomorrow morning instead.  I am in Massachusetts.  I want to be able to fully explain to them what the problem is because they have now come 3 times after the installation for this problem.

Rich_49

0010

will flow your required 10 GPM at 9 ft of head where as the 007 will only give you 10 GPM with a head no greater than 7ft . 007 is not enough pump for the job .  It always amazes me also that local plumbers in Mass would not use HTP boilers that are manufactured right in East Freetown , especially since they are using their indirects .  The black pump as far as I can tell is not furnished with the boiler , This pump if sized incorrectly can cause real problems .  This pump as per Burnham should be Taco 0015 on speed #3 .

Weezbo

Howdy ,

May i mention a few things , one is the placement of an antiscald devise ..

ok..

the other is i see a check on the horizontal up there in the ceiling , on your parallel primary

.

the superstore you have certainly looks bigger than a 30 gallon ,

with temps fluxuating all over the place and as fast as that will recover and make hot water ,

would you actually need a check after the circ is something i am wondering as it could somewhat buffer temps to the radiant and baseboard ... a temp gauge would be handy on the supply and return to and from it just so that you could see if what i am saying is correct with your own eyes.



before and after replacing the check ... and by adding an anti scald you might also see some change in the availability of hot domestic water...



.....



that might inturn change the radiant blend of waters is what i am thinking as well.



a temp gauge on the potable water after the anti scald devise would let you know exactly what the temp was available ... and you could turn on the same tap as you do now and have a record of the time it takes to fill the tub or whatever .



that way if what i say is not right you can tell me i am wrong. and i will have to accept that and wander the ethereal realm until i am forgiven by the hydronic specters ...



buh if it turns out that Marks idea about air infiltration and the idi er temp gauges on the supply and return and on the domestic after the anti scald prove true balancing bounce may become an easier proposition in the overall scheme of things.



Weezbo .

Weezbo

this is almost too funny..

i type really slow and was making some soup and letting my pinner friend "Mop" the one eye shih tsu in and out quick as a bunny lol..

anyway,.. we must both have been like somewhat typing the same things at the same time : ))



Cool..

*~//

baseboardheathelp

hot water baseboard heating

ok, so I need to tell them to swap out the green 007 for the 010.  the black Taco has a number on the front that says  0015-MSF2.  is this accurate?  we were kind of forced to do the Alpine burner because we went through Mass save, and National Grid/Mass save has certain requirements.

Rich_49

0015 MSF 2

is sufficient for the boiler pump .  For domestic hot water ,0010 shows that it should perform by the pump curves from Taco , a 0015 MFS 2 would also be a good choice for the DHW , possibly a better choice in all actuality .

  I do not understand many of these programs  Why would a Mass program ignore a locally manufactured product that is equivalent or better than another product manufactured in another state . I would look to the installing contractor for this mystery .  What is your zip code ?

baseboardheathelp

hot water baseboard heating

ok thanks, they are coming by this morning, so I will see what they say.  we are in middlesex county.  hopefully this all gets resolved soon

Ironman

One Other Thing... Well maybe

With your piping arrangement, the boiler control should be set to:

1. Give priority to domestic heating

2. Turn on the boiler and DHW circ's for domestic heating

3. Turn off the system circ for DHW.



Overall, it looks like your installer did nice work. Just some details need adjusting or correcting.



Regarding sizing: the boiler should have been sized based on a heat loss calculation, not the size of the previous boiler. The old one was most likely well over-sized and over-sizing is a cardinal sin in boiler selection. Bigger is NOT better when it comes to boilers. The only time the full capacity of properly sized boiler is needed is when it's below 10* outside.

Weezbo

the lack of a anti scald ,

is politely the one item that should positively be addressed.



if nothing else is done at all for your health and comfort.



i am not the only one to mention this .



temp gauges save ponds and cost pence. right now , when ever some one wants to trouble shoot or diagnose the balancing you are playing guessing games.



i am also saying that the temps might and more certainly would benefit from some communication of the tank with the system . means that were the tank kept in the 140 F -> 160 and had a temp call from some other appliance or devise , this mass of heated water would find its way into the "Mix" then when it got cooler the DPO would quickly ,with the correct circ, raise that buffer back up .



the check valve seems to be , to me ,not needed using the tanks stored higher temp.



the workmanship looks fine . get ahold of the installation guides for the boiler and also the hot water maker. look at the pictures even if the words are gobbly gook to you.



when you find one with an anti scald devise say that you want one of those and mention future call outs of a tech for maintenance that a few temp gauge would quicken the diagnostic on equipment ,circs, and faulty valves. by the way that time saved can be better spent in minor adjustments at that time.

hope you avail yourself of this opportunity now, as it will take less time overall to get things working.and mention were they in place they could see with their own eyes what is happening .



Weezbo.



As could we days ago. with some pics showing these gauges readings.

Ironman

I Agree

An anti-scald valve would allow higher tank temps which would in turn kill legionella and give more capacity. But in all fairness to the installer, if that wasn't included in the contract, the customer should pay the additional cost. Unless the local code requires it, we're talking the difference between standard practice and best practice. Whereas, you and I may only offer the job with best practice, not all contractors will.

baseboardheathelp

hot water baseboard heat

ok, the company came back today, and said the burner is wokring the way it is supposed to, but they are not sure why it only heats 1 degree every 30 minutes, especially when it never was this slow on oil.  They disabled the outdoor temperature thing, and still nothing changed.  they also said that the 007 pump is the correct pump.  ahh!  this is a pain!

Weezbo

Thats like Grace ,

aint going ,No Place.

ok how about this , go get in the vehicle go down to the store and buy , one pipe strap on

temp gauge

with a spring

to hold it to the pipe.



when you get home ,

with a bit of effort and right thinking

we will give it a go.



buy it one time and bang its yours for the duration..of this future "Session" in the episode of the ,

Bewilderding baseboard bouncing....

hope that helps ,

Weezbo.



well, if they are coming back again ...

did you mention anything of what we have been saying to you ? these guys might benefit from the things we have said already ... because they have a lot of the basic H down , these small tweaks might round up their ability to do even better and make their time more productive ...

clobbering them over the head with what we say after the visit or work each time is not what we would like to see happening for you or for them.

baseboardheathelp

hot water baseboard heating

the company now told us they are coming back next Wednesday and said something is wrong, and the pumps are competing with each other, and they need to fix the piping.  this "one" day project has turned into a 3 week one!  hopefully they fix it next week, but who knows at this point.

Ironman

Okay, I See it Now

The supply and return lines to the boiler are reversed at the Tees on the manifold. The boiler is connected for the "moose antler" manifold to flow right to left, but the manifold is setup for left to right flow.



They're wrong about the domestic pump size, though. The manual calls for the 0010 circ.

baseboardheathelp

hot water baseboard heat

I will bring up the pump size to them again.  they swore today that the 007 was right.  they initially reversed our heating zones...so zone 1 was heating zone 2 and vise versa.  could this have something to do with the problem as well? 

Ironman

Doubt It

Look at your first pic. See the two black pipes going down to the boiler? One has the black circ. Their connection at the Tees needs to be reversed.

baseboardheathelp

hot water baseboard heat

ok I will tell them that when they come next Wednesday.  Since we are using a large company, we have asked them to send someone who is more familiar with the Alpine this time.  hopefully they do

Rich_49

Bob

good catch . the pumped line needs to enter the header on the left .  I sent you a pump curve chart which you should print . Here is another attachment you should also print to show to the installer side by side and ask him to explain how this 007 will be sufficient for this SSU-45 ?  If you need help in reading a pump curve we can assist , it is very easy . Not many guys actually do it though as you have now witnessed first hand .

Bob is also spot on about the possibility of an extra for the DHW mixing device . Not all installers actually practice best practices and this may be billable , I would however ask for it Gratis for your inconvenience , Call it Tuition ( Dan H "")for this company .   Funny thing about this whole indirect thing is that I was at a meeting with HTP Reps and the #4 man at HTP , we were discussing all the poor design and stupid mistakes we encounter on a daily basis .  Tell them also just switch the T Stat wires on the zone valves .  Sorry the document is upside down , guess you'll have to stand on your head .  Don't forget that the top tapping of the indirect is the supply , that is piped backwards also .

Ironman

Your Right, Rich

I wasn't even looking in that direction. How can an installer miss something that's clearly labeled?

Well, we're all human and prone to err.

baseboardheathelp

hot water baseboard heating

thank you for the chart...although I'm not sure how to read it!  How do I explain to the plumber that the pump is the wrong size with this chart?  let me know.  thanks again, and happy holidays!

Weezbo

well, the chart can be spun clockwise a couple times

*~//:) ,

then , depending upon the size and location and type of heat exchanger ...

in your case , specific , it shows the type of circ for that heat exchanger when piped as it is suggested in your book on the HTP superstore .

if you go to the thing that says HTP in gert BIG letters and look at the two pipe taps, one above the other you will make the discovery that ... the gauges would come in handy

on the supply and return..

Rich_49

How To

read pump curves .  There is a chart specifically for you attached , this should help . I drew the lines up and over for the minimum requirement for your DHW tank .  I am also attaching 2 links for you in case you have been kept from them so you can state your case on Wednesday .  The first is from HTP's website and depicts that the supply to the heating coil in all SuperStor indirects is always the top tapping and the lower is always the return , http://www.htproducts.com/superstorultraspecifications.html

The second is the install manual for Superstor tanks , please see page 13 which will give you a chart of total developed lengths of some common piping configurations for these units , the top chart is for 1 inch pipe including various fittings and piping lengths , my opinion on your particular install after considering this chart is that even the 0015 may not be enough pump for your system and may require a 0014 , smaller number , more pump . Of course you can determine better than I what your pipe lengths are from the pump to the tank and you can also count the fittings , Again after the chart , in the next few pages are a number of piping diagrams again depicting what is the supply port and return port for the SuperStors .

 http://www.htproducts.com/literature/lp-83.pdf       I do hope this all helps you in your quest for hot water . I will add that you should request that the water in the tank be stored at an elevated temperature (150) and a mixing device added to boost your storage capacity and your delivery . This boiler is a bit undersized for this tank also as per manufacturer so I would insist on that so you may enjoy this system as best you can .

Don't forget your real issue , The heat . Make sure they change that line with the pump so it enters the header in the left tee .  Have a good weekend .

SWEI

Question about flow

Why size the pump for the maximum the tank can absorb when the boiler only puts out half of that?

baseboardheathelp

hot water baseboard heating

thank you for the attached document and link.  I will show them this Wednesday.  So just to make sure I understand, the green pump needs to be a 0010 instead of a 00, and does the black pump also need to be changed?

SWEI

I'm still questioning the need

for 10 GPM when the boiler maxes out at 72,000 BTU/hr.  Or did I miss something?