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Hot water baseboard heating
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For the average HO
Not much. You could use it to find hot spots by shooting wall temps on the outside of your home see where insulation is lacking.
Otherwise mostly for heating system check temps of emitters supply return piping temps, and of course the indirect.
Other than that anything that your curious about surface temperature.0 -
Using your IR Gun
Here is a post showing how I have had pretty good luck with an IR thermometer. A few pictures there as well.
http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/148198/Frog-Tape-and-IR-Thermometers
If I use the frog tape next to an actual thermometer in a well I get within 2-3 degrees of the same readings. Good enough for what I'm doing.
Oh, I think I have seen chefs using IR thermometers as well.0 -
Synopsis
Would it be possible to start a new thread offering a brief synopsis of the problems with this newly installed system? I find it hard to read through so many posts to get to the true meat of BBHH's problems.
The main thing I picked up was that the pump for the indirect was piped wrong. I am also blown away by the installer's attitude and that he won't come back to fix things that BBHH is finding troublesome. Has the installer made an appearance here on The Wall?8.33 lbs./gal. x 60 min./hr. x 20°ΔT = 10,000 BTU's/hour
Two btu per sq ft for degree difference for a slab0 -
simple ,
one . determining the temp at boilers supply and return pipe , twodeterminin the temp at suppy and return pipe on the heating system three determining the temp at the supply and return on the domestic water loop on the HTP and four determining the supply and return temps on the HTP boiler side of the HTP..
27000$ worth of time .....later.... anything you would like .lol...
you can also get room temps ,on the walls of rooms temps above the baseboards .. just to name a few more immediate uses..0 -
It wont Go!
Reverse engineering by sight . Alan.
so far, we have determined remarkably little info in hundreds of hours of burned daylight .
that's about it, in a nutshell.
i think that if the pictures were of the circs close up earlier on we may have had an opportunity to make some interesting discoveries in reverse flow rangeability "Mixing" in a low loss header ...buh i already understand that particular process just that i like to deepen my understanding on that happening in the "Wild" .
the pipes were changed .. changed to what we still not entirely certain ..
the only thing we have managed to do is get an anti scald with a gauge on the out going mix so it can be dialed down to extend the available domestic hot water and
piece together that the boiler indeed has a readout screen with 140 water being sent thru to the water maker n a call for heat at that appliance.
...
the water maker is piped bass akwards and heat goes to cold ..
lol...
hope the holidays finds you in a thankful and joyous spirit.
O ! and my magnification glass 100X has yet to reveal the temps within the pipes...
*~//: )0 -
If you have a
pet, they will love chasing the red dot :-) Other than that, you can point it at a lot of different stuff just to see what temperature it is. I have a curious mind. I love fiddling with this kind of stuff.0 -
hot water baseboard heat
Thanks everyone for the help, I tried getting the best measurments today focusing only on the hot water. I turned the heat off for while to get the best baseline temperatures. The IR thermometer didn't work all that well, but we have thermometers installed directly into some of the pipes that I was able to use. The most accurate temps are from the supply and return pipes into the boiler and the hot water pipe that is after the mixing valve. I turned the hot water on in the tub (approx 6 GPM @ approx 120 degrees) and watched the temps. It took approx 17 seconds before hot water started coming out. I took temps until the hot water tank completly recovered (30min). Here's the temps and some notes. The setpoint for the boiler is 180.
Pipe 1: Supply from boiler
Pipe 2: Return from boiler
Pipe 3: Hot water pipe after mixing valve
Baseline: 0:00
Pipe 1: 144
Pipe 2: 140
Pipe 3: 80
1:00
Supply: 136
Return: 131
After mixing valve: Going up (above 80)
2:00
Supply: 147
Return: 147
AMV: 120
3:00
Supply: 146
Return: 146
AMV: 120
4:00
Supply: 100
Return: 97
AMV: 120
5:00
Supply: 112
Return: 92
AMV: 120
6:00
Supply: 125
Return: 131
AMV: 120
7:00
Supply: 131
Return: 109
AMV: 120
8:00 ------- Hot water ran out @ 8:15
Supply: 135
Return: 112
AMV 115
9:00
Supply: 137
Return: 114
AMV: 80 !
10:00 ---- Turned off water.
Supply: 130
Return: 115
AMV 70
11:00 ----- Stopped taking notes on after mixing valve. Remained at 70
S: 144
R: 122
AVM: 70
12:00
S: 146
R: 125
13:00
S: 149
R: 128
14:00
S: 151
R: 130
15:00
S: 153
R: 132
16:00
S: 155
R: 134
17:00 - Took at note that boiler was working at %100
S: 158
R: 136
18:00
S: 159
R: 138
19:00
S: 163
R: 141
20:00
S: 165
R: 143
21:00 --- Took a note that on the boiler "stack" was at 178 degrees
S: 167
R: 146
22:00
S: 170
R: 149
23:00
S: 172
R: 151
24:00
S: 175
R: 154
25:00
S: 177
R: 156
26:00 - "stack" at 187 degrees
S: 180
R: 159
27:00
S: 182
R: 161
28:00
S: 179
R: 162
29:00
S: 180
R: 162
30:00 - Boiler shut off
S: 181
R: 164
31:00
S: 168
R: 1650 -
Whats the temp of the domestic hot water going to the mixing valve?
Did you monitor firing rate the whole time?0 -
Wow
If your readings are correct, there is definatly something wrong with one or all of the following.
a. your boiler
b. your piping
c. your control set-up
The boiler should ramp up to 180 degrees alot quicker than 26 minutes. I would think that the installer would have checked this. But, from what I have read about the installing contractor it is not surprising.0 -
Very Good Job!
Now we have some good data to work with. I'm pretty sure I know what is the problem but we have one more thing to do. Take a small bucket and pull about a gallon of water out of the boiler drain.
Tell me how the water looks.
Then dump the bucket of water through a cloth so you will catch the sediment. Take a picture of the cloth and post it.
Also, take a picture on the outside of the house where the boiler's vent pipes come through. Please post that picture as well.
You are doing great with this!0 -
0011
Judging by the Delta T hovering right around 20* I would say we hit on the correct pump for this at least . From minute 7 through 31 it stayed right where we want it , those first 6 minutes are something .You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
732-751-1560
Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
Rich McGrath 732-581-38330 -
hot water baseboard heat
The hot water tank is set for 140 degrees. When should the boiler kick in to start producing hot water? Ours kicked in around the 4 minute mark, at 6GPM, does that sound correct? How fast should the boiler reach 180 degrees? It did take almost 26 minutes for it to reach that temperature. It's a brand new system so I'd be surprised if there's any sediment in the water already.0 -
In your situation
I would crank the water heater up to 170º
NOW!! The things I told you to do earlier with the bucket of water and taking a picture of the vent piping, may seem inconsequential. TRUST ME, THEY ARE NOT. I AM GOING SOMEWHERE WITH THIS AND I HOPE FOR YOUR SAKE I'M WRONG ABOUT WHAT THE ROOT OF YOUR PROBLEMS ARE. You did very well with the temperature readings now PLEASE continue with the troubleshooting steps I told you.0 -
Snap shot in time...
30:00 - Boiler shut off
S: 181
R: 164
31:00
S: 168
R: 165
.............................
shows that what could be ...
now ,
when this is happening and you turn the heat on ,...
the green circulator to the two silver shiney things with the wires hanging out of them (Zone Valves in our lingo)
will have a time variable temp reading also .
.............. the Black pipe that is just underneath the green circ pump will change temp , rapidly
as soon as a thermostat is turned up ..
the temperature on the black pipe on the left hand side of the Bigger black pipe on the left hand side as you look at he "Headder" are the returns from the zones ..
these will also show time variable temp changes...
the individual copper pipes can be read by aiming the gun at the end of the copper "Drops" where they connect to the black iron T.
............
these numbers are of interest as they will then speak to a clearer picture for
a better diagnosis .
................
the test could start when the thermostat is turned up to like 80 ,
no hot water used or being used ,......
.......
take th e reading on the boiler control ..
take the temp on the black pipe to the green pump to the zone valves.
take a reading on the Return side on the drops to the left side of the behaviour. er , headder.
....
then do the boiler test to the water Maker ..(HTP)
.....
soon as you see the snap shot we started with ,
then recheck the supply and returns on the zones ,
in 5 min check again all places .
......
there are two black iron T's on the headder , that come from the boiler itself .
one above the black pump and the other connects by black iron to black iron , right next to it on the headder
....
if it were on me to get in and get out , i would also track the temps there very quickly taking mental notes from different parts leading and leaving those Two "T's ..
this would further round up my snap shots in time , to fill in an enormous amount of useful information .
....
the outside temp and room temps and time variable reading back at the boiler and in the field would enable me to dial this in even better ..
, ..
you have good help ,
when you isolate one variable ata time it will make impeccable distinctions with which to steer by ,
our minds are able to process this information ,
even though they are only snap shots in time.....
*~//: )0 -
Based on these numbers...
My observation is that the system is working exactly as it is supposed to. Remember, the tank aquastat is half way up the tank, so running cold water for 4 or 5 minutes before the boiler kicks on is perfectly normal. (4 X 6 = 24, tank volume = 42). Also, based on your math, you got at least 80% of the tanks total volume before you ran out of hot water.
And the time from run until shut off also looks correct (within reason) based on 72,000 btuH output of the boiler.
I don't see anything on this side of the system that would give me heartburn. I think it is working as good as it can, given the situation.
Now, if you slow your tub flow down to 1.5 GPM, it is possible to get even more hot water out of this system, and the math is as follows;
1.5 GPM X 8.33 X 100 degree rise X 60 minutes per hour = 74,970 btuH.
Your 80,000 btuH boiler puts out 76,000 btuH (80,000 * .95 = 76,000 btuH)
A typical residential bath tub holds about 30 gallons of water with a person sitting in it.
So, 30 (tub capacity) divided by 1.5 (GPM flow rate) = 20 minutes from start of fill till full.completed.
It's going to take some experimentation on your part to get the flow rate down, but once you figure out where the sweet spot is, set it, and start watching the clock, and when 20 minutes are gone, you should be able to jump into a completely full tub of hot water. If not, you most probably have a defective aquasats that is not initiating the call for boiler as quickly as it can. Have them replace it with a solid state, high quality, extremely accurate one…. Johnson controls makes a very nice one.
The other option would be to opt for a larger storage tank capacity,or more fire power(bigger boiler)
Personally, I'd adjust my usage patterns around the energy availability and be done with it, but that's just me. I'm so tight, I squeak when I walk (according to my children and loving wife)
METhere was an error rendering this rich post.
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Hot Water
Not sure if this was addressed yet. The boiler supply and return piping is reversed at the indirect. That is an HTP SS unit correct? I looked earlier pictures and pulled a manual and they have the lines reversed.LANGAN'S PLUMBING & HEATING LLC
Considerate People, Considerate Service, Consider It Done!
732-751-1560
email: langansph@yahoo.com
www.langansplumbing.com0 -
Pipes Reversed
If you look somewhere back in this volume, you'll find that got corrected. It may take some research, but it's there. Bob Boan
You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.0 -
Honestly….
I don't think it would make THAT big a difference in the recovery/output of the tank. Guessin less than 5 percent.
I once had a conversation with Wonderful Walter Weebler of W Cubed (Carlson Mining and Manufacturing predecessor) who with the help of Rick Meek developed a brazed plate heat exchanger. I asked him if counter flowing his plate heat exchanger made THAT big a difference,and he said it made about a 2 or 3 percent difference. If that.
The way that heat exchanger is loaded into the bottom of the tank, I'd be surprised if it made that big a difference, but rules are rules…
METhere was an error rendering this rich post.
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No Hot Water
I know Im late to the show. I hate to say it the boiler is not large enough to give the designed hot water output of the SS45. It seems to be in line with the output ratings of the SS20. The boiler supply should ramp up to 180 for a domestic hot water priority call. In this case both the boiler pump and the domestic hot water pump should be running. If this setting is correct you still would only get a portion of the rated hot water due to the lack of BTU for the volume of water coupled with the square footage of the heat exchanger inside the SS45. You would be in the range of 130 - 150 gallons per hour max. The tempuratures you provided are clearly showing a boiler programing issue or possibly a criss cross in the circulator wiring. Could they have the boiler circ and the domestic circ backwards? This should have been tested before they left.
To get the benifit of the higher hot water output you would need a larger boiler. That said 150 gallons isnt too bad...LANGAN'S PLUMBING & HEATING LLC
Considerate People, Considerate Service, Consider It Done!
732-751-1560
email: langansph@yahoo.com
www.langansplumbing.com0 -
What she needs
is a larger tank (or a higher storage temperature, which is where I'd start for sure.) Or a separate DHW heater. Or a supplementary DHW heater. Not a bigger heating boiler. Really.0 -
#300 Congratulations SWEI!
You hit the big number.:)
I thought this thread might have been coming to an end after Mark confirmed what's been stated several times. Namely, the simplest thing is to slow down the fill rate of the tub. She's pulling btu's out of the indirect at over twice the rate that this combination of boiler, piping, circ and tank can produce.
None of us knows for sure if the control is setup properly, but it does appear that this combination is doing all that can be reasonably expected for domestic and that to consider putting more equipment in when there's a sufficient volume of hot water available to meet their NEEDS is missing the easiest solution. There's no need to go nuclear when a slingshot will do. Definitely, a bigger boiler isn't warranted.
As far as space heating goes, she may still have issues there. We're not sure; and unless we get a competent and trusted tech on site we may never know for sure.Bob Boan
You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.0 -
300
I've checked in on this post from time to time.Every time I look at it, I come to the same conclusion Mark did, "what's the problem?".
The heating setbacks (bad idea) can be accomplished by setting the program to start earlier.
The domestic water would be solved by using low flow fixtures.Just think of the lower water bills.
The next time someone asks me why manufactures don't offer the higher efficiency Euro models in America, I am going to show them this thread and say "because we are not ready"
We just keep driving the 350 horse power SUV to the store and complaining about the government.
It always amazes me the kind of "first world problems" we all dream up.
Carl"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
Albert Einstein0 -
To the consumers credit...
Remember guys, she had a "working" system before she went for the replacement. I'm guess that she had an oil fired cast iron boiler with an immersed DHW coil, and the boiler ran at 180 to 200 degrees F, so when she wanted a lot of hot water, by golly she got it. Then they changed the system, and it didn't work like it use to. I'd probably complain too…
But even if it were an oil boiler with an immersed coil, she could still only push maybe 2 GPM through that coil, so the fact that the boiler was sitting there in a hot ready, steady state condition is what probably kept her in hot water.
I call it the STC principle… Subject To Change. As soon as something changes, and you are not use to the new way of operation, its broke… Need e bigger one (tank, not boiler) or a slower flow. The only thing the slower flow is going to cost is time.
Based on all of their feed back though, she may still have some issues with the tanks aquastat. The ones that come with the tank have a lot of slop, and inaccuracy to them. I have seen them hang up with a tank full of cold water.
METhere was an error rendering this rich post.
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A Valid Point
Agreed Mark.
The biggest problem on this job was probably not the installers technical inability or his stubbornness to having his false conceptions corrected. It wasn't the installation errors that had to be corrected. He did neat enough work and was willing to go overboard when he realized that something had to be done to correct the situation.
No, the biggest problem in my view is his failure to understand how differently this system would perform than the old one and communicate that to the customer. I doubt that he still has grasped that.
We've probably all been guilty of this. In our rush to sell and install another job, it's quite easy to fail to properly communicate with the customer and see what their EXPECTATIONS are. We know what ours are. We know what the system can be expected to do. But we fail to find out what the CUSTOMER is expecting for his money. To fail to find this out and bring it into line with what they are actually getting is a sure road to disaster in customer relations. In fact, other than outright lying to a customer, I know of no surer way of souring customer relations. The simple reason is that the customer FEELS that he's been mis-lead when doesn't get what HE expected.
This is probably the area of more failures in our trade than any where else. I hope we all can learn from this. I know I have and it's something I need more improvement in.Bob Boan
You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.0 -
Not ready !
Oh so true Carl,
We live in a world of front wheel drive, all wheel drive, anti lock breaks, superior ride, talk on the phone, and be on the internet all most anywhere. Go to the store, and can't decide what type of a single item to buy because there are so many brands remember bar soap maybe four choices. Etc.etc.
The roads are to rough, the snow was not cleaned off the road enough, and don't get it dirty. I don't have cell service, the police took 10 minutes to get here.
I think back to our ancestors making their way west in a covered wagon what they would have gave for such transportation, and the world of convenience people have the nerve to complain about today.
Society has become want it fast want it now mentality, text me, email me.......soon we all will have to change like it, or not.
Some countries you go to the store, and get a loaf of bread you don't get to choose a brand, or even which loaf.
Sorry for the rant Carl struck a chord at a feeble moment in time, and in no way am I tying my comments to the original posters issues in this thread.
Merry Christmas to all, and let's not forget its true meaning, and that's giving. Thank you Dan for creating a place where giving is such a common event all year long!0 -
It comes down to 2 things
The OP needs a qualified technician to properly set the parameters as the boost function is not set correctly, and the IDWH is not sized correctly for the lifestyle of the homeowner.0 -
HTP SSU coil flow rates
Not looking to prolong this, but figured I should close the loop, now that I finally got some numbers from Brian French on the SSU flow rates:
INDIRECT FLOW RATES
For the SSU-20 & 30. CV = 5
For the SSU-45 & 60. CV = 5.5
For the SSU-80. CV = 6
For the SSU-119. CV = 6.5
So the Alpine 080 moving 4.8 GPM @ 30ºF ∆T would see 1.76 ft of head from the coil of an SSU-45 or 2.13 ft of head from an SSU-30 (no piping.) With a 20ºF ∆T, those numbers would move to 3.96 feet on an SSU-45 or 4.79 feet on an SSU-30.0 -
Any changes to your system?
Curious, after following this for a few weeks, how's it going?0 -
hot water baseboard heat
hi, nope no changes! they came this week and still don't know what is wrong. they came with HTP and Alpine reps. It took 3 hours to go from 65 to 66 degrees, and they now are willing to bring in a 3rd party, but of their choice. the alpine rep after coming here 2 times discovered that the computer was set so that the burner would not go above 170 degrees, so that was changed to 180, but that is it.0 -
Third party
When?0 -
hot water baseboard heat
sometime next wk0 -
hot water baseboard heat
we had an insulation company come today to seal our attic and add some extra insulation. they said that they could not do it because the CO level was too high on the burner, in the 80's, and for a new burner it should be around 7. is this accurate? the heating company came back and said the CO level is in the normal range and is in the manuel. we also called HTP and they said that the burner should go to 180 degrees in 3 minutes, not 20 minutes like ours does, when the hot water is running.0 -
Thread 2
hot water baseboard heat
Why don't you post that in a new thread called Hot Water Baseboard Heating Part 2 ?
I'll put a link in the new thread pointing back to this one. This one is getting too long to be easy to work through.
Mark0 -
Co
Page 86 of the alpine manual says the co should be less than 100 ppm, not less than 7. That's measured in the vent with a combustion analyzer. Did your insulation guy measure it in the flue vent or in the atmosphere of your house?
If it's from the atmosphere of your house, you have a serious issue that needs to be resolved immediately.
When measured in the flue, 40 ppm is typically about the best you'll get if the other parameters are correct.
Your boiler water temp is NOT gonna shoot up to 180* if the temp of the domestic in the tank is cool. It probably won't reach 180* until the tank temp nears 120*. There are several variables there, nothing in stone. The HTP guy wasn't considering the variables.Bob Boan
You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.0 -
hot water baseboard heat
the insulation guys measured the CO outside of the house where the gas exhaust is. The heating company then came and measured it through the pvc piping, 2 feet above the boiler. they drilled a hole in it to check it. the insulation guy said it was in the 80s, the heating company said that at low fire it was at 15 and at high fire it was at 48.
the differential in the hot water tank may be off. it should call for hot water below 140 degrees, but the the Alpine rep said it is possible it is not doing this and calling for hot water at 120, which he said was too low. the tank temp starts at 1500 -
15 - 48 ppm
Those numbers are fine. It would be nice to have the O2 and CO2 numbers from their analysis. Did they give you a printout?
If the flue vent is run and terminated as per Burnham's instructions, then there's no danger. It's always good to err on the side of caution, but the insulation guy is off base.Bob Boan
You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.0 -
hot water baseboard heat
I do see a printout left on the counter. there are 2. first one O2 is 5.7% and CO 12ppm, ef 88.7, C02 8.6, t-stk 135 F, t-air, 61.4 F, EA 33.6, and CO(o) 17 ppm. hand written lo on the bottom with handwritten notes CO 12 ppm, Co2 9.9, 7.9, 8.6, O2 3.5, 7 , 5.7. 2nd one 02 is 5.8% and CO 46 ppm, eff 88.5, C02 8.5, t-stk 142 F, T-air 60.9 F, EA 34.4, CO 64 ppm. handwritten at bottom Hi Fire, CO 46 ppm, CO2 9.9, 8.2, 8.5, and )2 3.5, 6.5, 5.8.0 -
Through This Entire Ordeal
And I've read every post. Nobody has done a heat loss calculation, nobody has measured system supply temp while comparing the btu/hr ouput of the board and/or DHW at those temps. Everyone keeps going to the boiler control to read temp. Has anyone done any system side supply/return readings as well as DHW supply return readings. Are you over pumping? What are the delta-t's. Nobody has started with the basics, everyone keeps running to the boiler. What's the delta-t on the boiler/primary side? This sounds like a hydronic problem not a boiler problem..There was an error rendering this rich post.
0 -
hot water baseboard heat
a heat loss calc was done, but very late in the game. I posted the results of that. Im not sure how to find the delta t?0 -
So Nobody
Has done any system side supply/return water temp measurements at all? That would be ridiculous in my opinion if they haven't. Boiler is working, making energy, making hot water. So the issue has to be on the system side not the boiler side. Without these readings how would anyone know what's going on? They wouldn't. I'm very surprised nobody that has been to this job hasn't taken delta-t/temperature readings on the heating and DHW system side. Delta-t is the difference between the supply and return temps. Since your piped primary secondary, the boiler/primary side would have a different delta-t the the system/secondary side. How would anyone know what the btu/hr delivery is without these readings.
gpm = btu/hr / (delta-t x 500)There was an error rendering this rich post.
0
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