Hot water baseboard heating

Gordy

Installer

Wanted to increase boiler size when under radiated as a solution??



Rep claims 5 * setback doable when under radiated??

knotgrumpy

Can you clarify what you wrote

hot water baseboard heat"I was just told that our outdoor reset disables at 25 degrees, and the water temp gets to 180 degrees in 10 minutes.  so with this information, does it seem like it is working right or no?    after 2.5 hours of trying to get above 66 degrees, I gave up yesterday.  even though it was 5 degrees out, the water should have been 180 degrees..."



 "What did you mean 'trying to get above 66 degrees, I gave up"



When you are trying to raise the temp in the house, do you turn the thermostat all the way up, or???



Also, for some reason we now have your house toasty while you did these tests.  Temp outside should probably have had you resetting to a lower temp than 180f so that may need some attention, but my question is what are you doing different during these tests that you didn't do while  'trying to get above 66 degrees, I gave up"?

Paul48

Yes

Questions and answers that just don't add up on face-value.The OP needs TRVs in their bedrooms, so the setbacks can be avoided.I think that as Chris said, there is something wrong with the math here, and the math doesn't lie. If the unit was in "Boost" mode for the readings, it was in boost mode for the time they could get heat to the house.

Gordy

Let's play

The heat loss program is 20% padded.



So that puts base boards a little over sized.



Another variable we only know what the installer told OP not what they actually did with the boiler controls, in an effort to smooth out a situation.



We don't really know head of each zone to figure flow rates. Maybe by a miracle as Chris pointed out even though second floor zone is less base board, the piping to get there makes the head loss equal to the 1st floor zone.



But IF outdoor reset is properly set up we should not be seeing 170* base board temps, and 180* boiler temps above the 3* design condition now that the zones are up to a 70* setpoint! and the outdoor temps are well above 3* design conditions.



I could see at first coming out of a set back in boost mode.



We can probably say the previous owners maybe did not do set back, and old boiler was oversized so the issue was never an issue.

Paul48

Gordy

Based on 600*lin/ft @ 180*...They have 33k+ first floor and 13k+ second floor?

Gordy

Use

510 as the out put for 170* to be conservative for the 30 right? Unless we can assume 4 gpm then use 540. 170 average water temps.

baseboardheathelp

hot water baseboard heat

things that were different to get to 70 this time were that we did not set back as much the night before, and we had both zones running at the same time, putting each one at 70. it was also higher outdoor temp out.  when I say I gave up after 2.5 hours at 66, we are comfortable at 64, and just wanted to time how long it took to go up to 70, so we  put it at 70, and after having it stuck at 66 for 2.5 to 3 hours, we gave up and put it back down to 64 because we were leaving the house and could no longer time it.  it seems like we are able to go up about 4 to 6 degrees in a reasonable amount of time, then it struggles slowly from there.  so if we set back to 58, we can get to 62 to 63, then is slowly struggles.  if we set back to 62, then same thing, can get to 66 or 67, then it is still slower after that.  so, I am guessing Alpine rep may be accurate that we can only set back 2 to 5 degrees without the recovery being very slow, closer to the 2 degree mark.  the baseboard elements are clean.  we do have some furniture in front of some baseboards, but they are pulled out so that there is space between the baseboard and furniture. 

some of your posts are confusing for me.  bottom line, are you saying we don't have enough baseboard?  we have been told that we do, and there are not really any open walls to add more in.  yes old owners had oil, an oversized burnham, and I cannot comment if they set back, but I would assume so.  the baseboard is in good shape, and not terribly old.  2nd floor built in 98, and all baseboard appear to be around the same age.  also, is there something wrong with our outdoor reset or boost mode?  I am not fully sure what some of your posts mean.  the large 700 sq foot room could definitly be contributing to heat loss.  we have glass french doors to that room that are kept closed at ngith with insulated curtains on them, but that room does drop quite a bit at night after the gas fireplace is shut off.

in terms of the outdoor reset, when it is 25 degrees or below outside, the outdoor reset has the boiler go straight to 180 degrees and not through steps.

Paul48

Right or Wrong?

They read 180* to 48000 btus of radiation, based on slantfins rating and got a DT of 20*. Can't we assume 4.8 gpm, which puts the head at about 9 based on the 007 curve?

Paul48

Length

This is getting ridiculous...It takes my computer about 30 seconds just to load this page.

knotgrumpy

I'm sorry

I don't mean to be confusing if you are speaking to me.



So, what you did different in this test is that you turned up the thermostat for both zones.  Plus,  you did not setback the night before.



Sound right?

Paul48

Flow Check

Hope there's a flow check in that circ for the DHW.

knotgrumpy

Curious

Isn't it, Paul.  This is new information.



Baseboard heats fine with both zone valves open.  Does not do well with only one valve open.



Curious. 

Gordy

Not curious

There is only enough baseboard to meet the load at design temps. When they set back coupled with outdoor reset it's going to struggle, and not meet the load especially if only one zone is carrying the load.



Usually the scenario is more than enough base board is there, and insulation upgrades where made after they were originally installed from years ago that allows a mod/con to benefit supplying lower temps to the system. I don't think this is the case here. Maybe the old oil burner was throwing 190 or more supply temps to the base board in the old system.



Bob hit it in his post a long time ago, and ME "can't run set back with ODR" period.



It's really counter productive. The ODR is doing the job of saving money if you let it, AND IF it's properly set up. The minute set back is thrown in the mix it's actually taking away any savings ODR was trying to accomplish. Because now it has to boost to claw away at that deep set back.



The ODR should not even need a thermostat if the curve is properly set up. The thermostat could act as a high limit for solar gain to shut a zone down which in this case for some reason the upstairs is overheating, or is it. Has the op used lower temps that they want for upstairs and left things alone?



There are probably a lot of little things that can add up in this whole problem. Thermostat locations especially upstairs, lay out of the rooms, how open is it to the upstairs.



We are all trying to solve a problem with some of the information is subjective to pictures, and word. Except the temp readings we can not see all the piping, the controls etc to verify information.



The boiler can put out over twice the btus for the loss the emitters can not.

Paul48

In General

I don't think we were focusing any longer on setbacks, but rather the systems inability to ever reach temperature, at design day temps. We missed the opportunity to check the temps at the radiators during the cold snap. So, you have concluded that there is just not enough radiation Gordy?

knotgrumpy

I'll be foolish again...

For the sake of argument let's say the radiation on the ground floor calls for 3.3gpm, the 007 produces almost 10' of head at that rate.  If only the ground floor is calling for heat, doesn't it seem that that small of load is grossly over pumped by the 007?  Can't a too large pump start working against itself?  High head begets higher flow resistance?



When the other zone valve opens things change at the pump.



Just asking, you guys are the pros.  I'm just a student.



I do think the ground floor needs more EDR.

baseboardheathelp

hot water baseboard heat

so at this point, with set back being removed, does it sound like this system is working the way it is supposed to, or no?  I know there are lots of variables (outdoor temp, house layout, insulation, etc), but does this sound typical for the system to get stuck for hours at one temp?  yes it is warmer today, and it is heating up to a higher temperature at a faster pace today.  I have been using the upstairs thermostat more in the past 2 days, and it is fast, especially compared to downstairs.  but, that floor is significantly newer than the 1st floor, and the 2nd floor was not as fast several days ago when it was a lot colder out.

Gordy

Using thermostat

When you make that statement does it mean.



A. Your adjusting it?

B. it's on at the desired setpoint?



I hope it's B.





At this point leave the thermostats at the desired set points in each zone. See how system performs at the next cold snap.



Some information I would like to know now is what are the boiler supply temps during a heat call with mild temps as you have now.



Then what are boiler temps when the temps begin to fall in the 20's and lower.



Now that the house interior temp has had a chance to maintain a steady temp it will be easier to see how well the boiler performs, and the reset curve that has been programmed.



Typically if it's 55 today and the boiler called for heat you should not have 180* supply temps from the boiler, or 170 * baseboard temps. Use your new toy to verify.





I know this is a pain sorry.



Just don't fool with the thermostats set them and forget about them. Just observe indoor air temp readings from them at the most. And if the thermostat is calling for heat usually there will be an icon flashing when the thermostat is calling for heat if it's a digital one. What kind are they?



You have to forget about the previous observations because I think they were skewed by the set backs you were using. Start from scratch.

baseboardheathelp

hot water baseboard heat

yes, both zones have a temp that we set it at and leave it, but upstairs is lower.  I wanted to make sure the upstairs zone would also work, so I bumped it up 5 degrees from the new comfort point just to make sure that it could do it, and it did it fine today, but it is 55 out today.  It is going to be warm tomorrow too, so we will take temp readings again tomorrow.  If it get's into the 20's this week, we will re-do the temp readings then as well.

baseboardheathelp

hot water baseboard heat

outdoor temp today is about 42.  The temperature in the house was 64 degrees, we put the thermostat at 70 degrees.  In 15-20 minutes later, we did the 4 readings on the boiler.  The display of the boiler stated it was producing 175 degree water and the return was 160

A-180

B- 160

C-181

D-170



we did 1 baseboard temp reading-it was 174



From how it was explained to us, we were informed that when we call for heat, the boiler starts out at 155 degrees (unless its 25 degrees or colder outside, then it goes straight to 180 degrees).  Every 10 minutes if the house is not at the temperture we set it for, the boiler ups the temperature of the water by 10 degrees.  (So we set the temp in the home for 70, if in 10 minutes its not at 70, the boiler will up the temperature of the water).  Once it reaches 70 degrees inside the home, the boiler will do whatever it has to do to maintain 70, so if it drops down to 69, it may only need 155 degree water to get it back up to 70.  We took the temperatures after 20 or so minutes, so the boiler looks like it had already uped the temp to 175 trying to get the home to 70 degrees.

SWEI

We put the thermostat at 70 degrees

from what?  I thought you were eliminating setback for the time being?

Gordy

You set back??

How did the house drop

To 64?



Why did you raise to 70?



You need to pick a temp and leave it 24/7!



Your new high efficiency boiler is no more efficient than an old cast iron beast this way.

baseboardheathelp

hot water baseboard heat

yes, we have eliminated set back.  the thermostat is left at 64.  the issue was never that the heat did not stay at a temp once it got to that temp.  the issue was that it had a hard time moving up in temp.  we moved the heat on the thermostat from 64 to 70 in order to call for heat and do the temp readings, then put it back to 64 once we were done with the readings.  to be clear, we no longer set back and do not turn below 64 at night, and it stays at 64 during the day.  this is  uncomfortable for us at night  and we now have to sleep with a fan on.  but, we absolutely will have times when we need to turn it above 64 for guests, parties, etc, and according to the Alpine rep and the company, the system should be able to reach 70 or whatever temp we needed if we had a need for it to be that high. 

Gordy

Flash back

I'm having a flash back to when I was about 4 sitting in gramps caddy overwhelmed with all the buttons and switches I could not help my self. My actions were met with a sharp slap on the hands.....don't play with the gizmos!





We are trying to see what kind of temps your boiler will delegate at a steady state. That means leave the house at one temp a single temp you are comfortable at.

Gordy

Okay

Don't raise set point to take readings. Wait for the boiler to come on at 64 then take readings and observe boiler temps maybe I was not clear. Doing what you did put it in boost. I don't care about that.

SWEI

Bear with me here

I know you've had a lot of advice and it's probably getting a bit confusing at this point.  I know it is for me!



I've forgotten whether you're adjusting any of your boiler parameters or not, but given the history here you may want to consider jumping in.  I would set all the thermostats for 80ºF and leave them there.  Then I would adjust the ODR parameters until the indoor temp stabilized (at 65º or 70º or whatever you find comfortable.)  Disable the boost setting in the boiler.  Do not touch the thermostats during this process.  Put on a sweater if it gets too cold.  Open a window if it gets too hot.  It will take a few days, but your boiler will finally be able to do the job it was designed for.  After this process is complete, I would raise the curve at both ends by a degree or three and turn down the thermostats to the temperature I wanted in the house.  In areas which are too warm (master bedroom comes to mind), I'd consider adding a TRV.  If there are areas that are too cool, you might need to extend or upgrade the baseboard (or perhaps add some thermal blinds.)



Sorry this has grown so long and complex.  The knowledge seems to have been forgotten in the past few decades and we are fighting to bring it back into the mainstream.

Paul48

Series

I believe Chris has posted a link to a TRV with a bypass, in the past. BBHH....the TRV would allow you to set your bedroom temp to whatever you want without cooling the whole house.

Gordy

up stairs

is a zone I'm assuming all bedrooms up there. Kind of wondering why its over heating?

RobG

Addition

If I remember correctly, the upstairs is an addition? If so the insulation factors / infiltration is probably far different. This should probably be a two temp  / two reset curve system to be able to balance it out. Taco I series valve anyone?



Rob

knotgrumpy

Define

Overheating.  64* is uncomfortable.

baseboardheathelp

hot water baseboard heat

yes upstairs is an addition. 6 inches insulation in walls. r38 in attic. 64 too warm to sleep in, prefer in the 50s for sleep. not sure what the acronyms mean.  

Gordy

Yes

To them.

Gordy

Question

If this upstairs zone is say 55 or what ever you find comfortable. Does that temp stay there or tend to climb?



So you sleep in the 50s and raise the temp during the day? If so why?

knotgrumpy

Convection up the stairs

Is probably giving them that temp.  I think somewhere up thread she may have mentioned that.



Wasn't commenting on their choice of sleeping temp. 



Sort of come full circle with the reason they wanted to setback in the first place.  And to think, the contractor was going to install a larger boiler.  It appears they have too much baseboard upstairs and not quite enough down.

SWEI

Overheating

is a feeling, not a number.  Adjust the ODR curve so the space is comfortable across the broadest range of outdoor temperatures.  Then you can start over-thinking stuff.

baseboardheathelp

hot water baseboard heat

if the upstairs zone is set for 55, and the downstairs is set higher, 64, then yes upstairs gets warmer and the temp does climb.  is the question why do we like it cooler to sleep? doesn't everyone?  just sleep better with a cooler temp.

Gordy

Just wondering if

Upstairs stayed at desired temp is all. You would need a flame thrower to get me out of bed at those temps. But that's just me;-)



Where is the upstairs thermostat located in reference to the bulk of rising heat from the down stairs?

Gordy

Overheating upstairs

If the upstairs set point can not be maintained low enough the questions in my mind are these.



Is the upstairs zone thermostat located in an area that it can't see the elevated readings soon enough to shut down that zone?



If the upstairs is on its own zone, and still over heats I don't see how TRVs will help control that unless the master bedroom is sealed from the rest of the upstairs. The op already has a zone set up. Question is if the zone is sensing the rising temps, and shutting down, or is the thermostat in a shielded location where it does not sense the over alll temp of that zone, and allows the zone to run to long.



Maybe that problem is as simple as relocating the thermostat to where it senses the rising heat from down stairs.



Another question comes to mind is if there is a flo check for that zone? Could it be ghosting adding to the over heat problem?





I think the radiation is just enough to run a desired set point, and maintain that set point. But to run set backs , and lower water temps it is lacking a bit.



Once a decent reset curve is implemented per SWEI's advice one will know better.

baseboardheathelp

hot water baseboard heat

2nd floors thermostat is inside the master bedroom.  is resetting the curve something we should do ourselves?  I would guess not

CMadatMe

Chasing a Ghost

I've come to the realization that we are all chasing a ghost here.

Zman

Expectations

I think the lesson here is to make sure you know the customers expectations.

The customer used to have a very inefficient but very responsive boiler system.

they now have a quite efficient and slow responding system. It  turns out this is not what they wanted.

It is kind of like going from a gas guzzling SUV to a Prius. There is a trade off.

I would still suggest that if the customer wants huge temp setbacks. they should set the t-stat to change settings much sooner.

It should also be made clear that these setbacks will (and always have) actually make the system less efficient.

Carl