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Hot water baseboard heating

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  • baseboardheathelp
    baseboardheathelp Member Posts: 141
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    hot water baseboard heat

    ok, just so I'm clear, the baseboard has what looks like a fin that opens and closes, and inside that is the copper piping.  you want a reading on each end inside behind the fin on the copper piping, in otherwords, put the black tape on the copper pipe? it is a tight fit.  some baseboard has the piping from the floor to the baseboard at the end, but there is no way I could fit tape on that. too small.
  • CMadatMe
    CMadatMe Member Posts: 3,086
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    I'm Confused

    I can't tell from the pic what's from what, its so small.



    Can you label those temp readings:



    Boiler Supply

    Boiler Return



    System Supply

    System Return

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  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    You can

    Shoot the piping coming out of the floor which ever is easier.
  • baseboardheathelp
    baseboardheathelp Member Posts: 141
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    hot water baseboard heat

    before I go any further, I just tried to do 1 room so far.  92.7 one end, couldn't reach the pipe on the other end as it sinks into the baseboard, and the next baseboard same thing, and one end was 87.  the end with 92.7 has visible piping coming from the floor, but I cannot fit black tape on it.  I got 117 and 120 for readings wiht no tape.  shall I continue, or is this not doing the job right?  i can always have my husband work on this tomorrow.
  • knotgrumpy
    knotgrumpy Member Posts: 211
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    Basement

    You may have an easier time getting a shot at the pipes from the basement if you have easy access.



    Good job so far.
  • knotgrumpy
    knotgrumpy Member Posts: 211
    edited January 2014
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    Chris

    Top temp is system return

    Next, System supply

    Next, Boiler return

    Last, Boiler supply



    That's how I read it anyway.
  • baseboardheathelp
    baseboardheathelp Member Posts: 141
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    hot water baseboard heat

    ok this is going to take me a bit of time.  I'm going to have my husband take a look at it tomorrow to see if he has a better idea than I do on how to get the most accurate readings.  I will post the results tomorrow.  any temp in particular that both zones should be set to while I do the readings?

    how do the 4 readings on the boiler look?
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    Yes

    Good job.



    Leave the thermostat at set point not set back.



    When checking do it when there is a call for heat obviously, and after the boiler has run a bit just like you did tonight.



    We are trying to see IF the elements are getting the water temps needed to heat the space. So far not so well.



    As I said before document the temps in the order the baseboards are from the beginning of the supply to the end. Each zone same way separately.



    I will add your setback is not saving as much money as you may believe. If anything the little money saved is not worth the sacrifice in comfort.



    Rule of thumb if I recall every 2* setback saves 1%.



    So if your gas bill is 100 dollars your saving 1.00 for every 2* you set back this rule of thumb is subjective! but it is an eye opener to how little is gained in sacrificing comfort.



    Does set back save yes how much not much.



    One other thing a zone in deep setback can induce extra heat loss on a zone that is not setback through adjoining walls floors etc. thus putting extra load on the zone that is not

    set back.
  • Mark Eatherton
    Mark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,853
    edited January 2014
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    About that infrared gun….

    It reads a circle. The circle is conical from the tip of the gun and spreads out as you get farther away. You want to be RIGHT on the pipe/tape to get a good and accurate reading. If you are shooting from a distance, you are seeing an average surface temperature within a cricle which isn't accurate.



    RIGHT on top, at a right angle to the pipe, with the pipe centered on the eye piece.. I'd even recommend rocking the gun side to side and record the highest temperature seen.



    The laser is just a target reference… and has nothing to do with the surface temperature.



    There is usually a guide on the side of the gun to show target spread with distance away from target surface.



    ME

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  • baseboardheathelp
    baseboardheathelp Member Posts: 141
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    hot water baseboard heat

    when I took the 4 temp readings on the boiler piping, I was about 1/2 inch away from the pipe.  I was assuming I should not actually touch the pipe with the IR gun, or should I?  do the 4 readings from the Boiler that I shot seem ok, or are there concerns there?  I will not set back tonight, and see how it operates in the morning.  does it really only save  1% every 2 degrees per a monthly bill!? the thing is, we can't leave the house at 1 temp for the entire winter.  like I said, since heat rises, the upstairs zone cannot be as high as the downstairs, and if we were to have guests over, we open the doors to a large living room that is only heated by a gas fire place, thus allowing heat to leave from the downstairs zone to enter this room, and we then need to raise the downstairs zone a few degrees since the heat is escaping into this other room.  we normally keep this gas fireplace room shut at all times since it is not on a zone.
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
    edited January 2014
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    Concerns

    Let's see what the numbers are tomorrow.



    As far as the upstairs over heating. Are we seeing that now or was this before the new boiler. Regardless the thermostat should be satisfied, and the zone not call for heat whether the heat comes from down stairs zone , or the zone up stairs. If the zone is at temp then not operation.





    As far as the fireplace area I guess seal it off unless in use fire up the fireplace, or add some baseboard.





    Yes a 1/2" away should be fine for the IR thermometer.



    Set back saves if you are gone for days weeks etc. not hours. Your just trying to reheat the mass you let cool. Using just as much energy, and making the system work harder.
  • baseboardheathelp
    baseboardheathelp Member Posts: 141
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    hot water baseboard heat

    we moved here in September, so we never had the chance before to really get a feel for the heat rising to the 2nd floor, but I would assume it was the same as now.  we are unclear about, but could we add baseboard to this gas fireplaced living room with the Alpine 80?  the room is 24 by 28 feet.
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,469
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    BBHH

    Maybe this will help define what you have, as far as baseboards.They are all similar, even different manufacturers. End caps sometimes have hinges. Sometimes(most times), the installers dont screw the end caps in place. The guys are asking for readings on either end of the elements. The element is just the term for the copper tube with the fins on it. There's a stub of pipe that sticks out on either end.

    http://www.slantfin.com/images/stories/Homeowner-Info/baseboardinstallationinstructions_bbii.pdf
  • baseboardheathelp
    baseboardheathelp Member Posts: 141
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    hot water baseboard heat

    in terms of set back and savings, what do you think of this:



    http://energy.gov/energysaver/articles/thermostats



     is the Alpine system unique where this would not apply?
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    Depends

    How accessible the room is to add baseboard. Is it a slab, or is the floor over the basement access from below. If you can access it then add some. I assume this room was a part of the heat loss calculation?
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,469
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    Radiant Floor

    They don't address the low temp. outputs of mod/cons. They do state it is not recommended for radiant floor installations, because of the time needed to recover.I would say that a properly operating mod/con is to an extent functioning exactly the same way. It is applying just enough heat to the"structure" to overcome the heat loss. All the components of the structure become, like sections of floor slab.
  • knotgrumpy
    knotgrumpy Member Posts: 211
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    HWBH

    In the morning I'll upload the boiler picture with lettered labels so you can identify them for folks easier.



    If you can see the tubing running to the baseboard from the basement, a few picture be useful as well.  It seems to me that the boiler is making hot enough water if I'm reading your temps right. And those temps are making it into the system loop. Now it would be good to know how the baseboard is piped in the basement.  The inlet temp at the first baseboard after the zone valve should be close to your second measurement.



    Good evening.
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
    edited January 2014
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    government propaganda

    The statement contridicts itself.



    Set back 10-15* save 5-15% so if your fuel bill for the year is 1000.00 save 50.00-150.00



    Next statement is For every 1 degree set back save 1% for 8 hour period. If the above statement is true then this one is false, or vice versa. So I was padding the savings a bit.



    Sorry I have tried the game. My comfort is worth an arbitrary 10 bucks a month Not even 10.00. If i cant afford that its time to move out.



    Now if you want to wear a sweater, and lay with a blanket then living with a lower set point means something. But bouncing back and forth is chasing the dogs tail.
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
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    The efficiency gained by using radiant heat

    far exceeds that saved by forced air setbacks.  Just my experience.
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
    edited January 2014
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    Allow me to interject

    Your house interior walls floors, and all interior furnishings have thermal mass that stores energy. Everytime you allow the mass to cool it has to be reheated Going in and out of set back.



    If the mass is allowed to maintain an even temp then it just needs a little bump every now, and then to maintain set point. Allow it to cool down it takes a lot more energy to get to that setpoint again. Then when it does in a while it will be set back allowing itself to cool off again. Its also a bit of a fly wheel effect because once the air temp gets to set point the mass of the room is still behind sucking the warmth from your body until the mass has reached set point. Dont believe me use your IR thermometer, and give it a try. But wait until we get those baseboard readings.



    Think of a pot of water on the stove. Thats mass heat it on high until it boils. Once boiling you can lower the burner setting, and still keep it boiling. Turn the burner to low let it stop boiling for a while then turn it to high, it takes a bit to get a boil again.
  • Mark Eatherton
    Mark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,853
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    Gubernmint Misguidance...

    I have seen many reports to the contrary of the DOE's writers thoughts. And I have seen reports in favor of the governments findings, but their assumptions are all worst case/best case scenarios, and are fraught with "issues".



    For the most part, their assumptions are correct for old, leaky forced air heated home.



    The problem with a programmable stat is that it doesn't speak the same language as your boilers outdoor reset control. In fact, neither knows the other one exists, and there in lies the problem. The prog. stat. thinks that when it calls for heat, the source will vomit heat as a typical heat appliance does. Yours does not. It looks outside first and decides at what speed the heat pours out of the system. Your energy savings are greater at the point of generation with the reset controls, then it would be with the point of use, prog. stat.



    As others have pointed out, if you want a cooler sleeping environment, close the dampers to the baseboard, crack a window and close the door. Keep the stat set for a constant temperature, whatever makes you comfy.



    If in fact your house is cooling off significantly at night with the prog.stat. set back, it indicates other envelope "issues" like a need for insulation, caulk, and storm or new windows.



    Have you found the "sweet spot" for getting a good hot tub full of water yet?



    ME

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  • baseboardheathelp
    baseboardheathelp Member Posts: 141
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    Hot water baseboard heat

    Gordy, does your boiling water example imply that there should be room for a small set back, as long as it is not drastic?  do you all disagree with the alpine rep that a 2 to 5 degree setback is do-able?  We are trying not to set back this week, and I will post the findings.  we like the house at 64, but then again, there are times we will increase that temp.  we have so far never been able to get above 66 or 67 with this new system, so I am curious to see if leaving it at 64 at night will allow us to move past this temp if we need to.

    Mark, they slowed the water down to 3.5 gallons per minute, and when I fill the bath tub, I use the lever to slow it down and move it half way before it turns on the shower, and so far so good.  I have been able to fill the bathtub!  They are still mentioning an extra 50 gallon storage tank, but that seems unnecessary and no one else I know has one, and they still can fill a bath tub!

    I'm having my husband try to take the baseboard temp readings today and will post the results later.  what temperature should the baseboards be at each end?  and should this be the same for both upstairs and downstairs?
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    Not sure yet

    On the set back.



    If you read all of Marks post about Tstats and ODR not communicating with each other is what I'm eluding to. Your thermostat should act as a high limit, and outdoor reset is controlling the temps. But let's see what the base board temps are.



    No the boiling water was not what I was trying to communicate only how mass reacts to temp swings.



    So for now put set back on the back burner and let it simmer.
  • knotgrumpy
    knotgrumpy Member Posts: 211
    edited January 2014
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    Labeled Pictures

    HWBH



    Here are two pictures with lettering that you can refer to.  If you can retake the temps like you did last night at these locations it may be more accurate.  Especially the system supply (far right, letter A) and system return (Far left, letter B).



    Thanks
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    After all this

    The suspense is killing me.
  • baseboardheathelp
    baseboardheathelp Member Posts: 141
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    hot water baseboard heat

    We turned on the heat (both zones) and let the boiler reach 180 degrees.  We re-did the 4 temp readins on the boiler pipes.  The temperatures for the pipes:

    A: 180

    B: 161

    C: 160

    D: 181



    we are working on the baseboard readings now.  first room and first baseboard reading-171 degrees.  we are not clear on how to do this fully.  we took the cover off the baseboard and got a reading of the pipe, which was 171.  when you said get both ends, do you mean both pipes, or the left end of the baseboard pipe, then the right end?  we were not able to see the piping from the basement ceiling, and we are not able to fit the IR gun through the lower part of the baseboard to always get the bottom pipe.
  • baseboardheathelp
    baseboardheathelp Member Posts: 141
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    hot water baseboard heat

    I went to each baseboard in the home and got a reading from one end, all of the pipes registered a temperature of 170 to 175 degrees both upstairs and downstairs.
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    So now what

    Is your thermostat reaching the desired setpoint? What is your setpoint? What were the outdoor temps during this period?



    Those are pretty good temps. Now we know the baseboards are getting good water temps.
  • Weezbo
    Weezbo Member Posts: 6,232
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    hello again,

    i have a question ,

    Would you take the new gun and shoot three places in the boiler room? shoot the ceiling 8 foot away from the boiler an opposite wall from the boiler and the floor someplace average the three readings and post a number ?



    thank you.



    My thought is the layout of a second zone ,split off the one existing zone with additional emitters on both the "New" zones would be something worth considering.

    hope that helps you in the coming year .



    *~//: )
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,469
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    ABCD

    There's a problem with the ABCD readings. The system supply reading, exceeds the boiler supply reading.
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    Order of temps

    Discrepancy I would assume. And deviation in the IR thermometer.
  • knotgrumpy
    knotgrumpy Member Posts: 211
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    20° delta

    On system loop. Add in another section of baseboard or a panel radiator and be happy is how I see it.
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    I will wait

    For the answer to other questions I asked. But have a good idea what's happening.
  • knotgrumpy
    knotgrumpy Member Posts: 211
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    Room temp?

    You did pretty good. What was room temp while baseboard was at 170°?
  • CMadatMe
    CMadatMe Member Posts: 3,086
    edited January 2014
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    I have some concerns

    With the readings of boiler supply return/system side supply return. If the boiler is at a 20 degree delta-t given that we know the fixed speed boiler pump is moving 7.3gpm and the system side has if I recall 80 feet or so of baseboard and also giving a 20 degree delta-t would I not then be exhausting more btu/hr out into the house then the baseboard can deliver using 180 degree water?



    The system side must be pulling the 7,3gpm around the train track. Its has to. Your piped pri/sec. If it wasn't boiler return temps would be elevated and you would not be getting a 20 degree delta-t.



    The other concern with these reading from the system side is that system pump looks to be a Taco 007. We really haven't talked about system head. The operating curve of that pump to move 7.3gpm is a tad over 8' of head. Both zones would have have the same exact head loss to get that unless one was over pumping and one under pumping to provide a mixed return temp that gives an exact 20 degree delta-t.



    We spend time with a pencil and piece of paper to make that happen and these guys just slapped it together. I have a better chance of getting the winning lotto ticket then this happening,

    There was an error rendering this rich post.

  • baseboardheathelp
    baseboardheathelp Member Posts: 141
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    hot water baseboard heat

    when we took the readings, the outdoor temp was around 25 degrees, and it is around 55 degrees today.  we put both zones on and bumped the heat to 70 degrees, and the downstairs did reach this temp.  we did notice upstairs heats a lot faster than downstairs.  in about 30 minutes, upstairs went up 7 degrees.  downstairs did reach 70, and this was the first time we have ever been able to reach 70 with this new system.  it was at 65 and we bumped to 70.  had to sleep with fans on though! 

    we can try and do the 4 readings again on the boiler to see if that changes.  the gun is a bit volitile.  and we can do the readings in the room today a bit later on.

    in terms of baseboard, there really does seem to be enough baseboard, and there is not a lot of free walls where more could be put.  the thermostat is at the bottom of the staircase if that helps.  the downstairs layout is a bit choppy.

    so now what?  does this all seem to be working right.  I must say, with the temp outdoors being a bit higher, we saw the heat moving up faster.  a plumber mentioned to us that since the pumps were originally installed incorrectly and working against each other, he was fearful it could have damaged the alpine internally.   any thoughts?
  • CMadatMe
    CMadatMe Member Posts: 3,086
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    Your Piped

    Primary/Secondary. That means the system pump has no influence good or bad on the boiler pump. Doubt you damaged the HX. So at 55 your ok but at low temps not. Curve needs to be adjusted and the. I would start putting my pennies away to have all the baseboard replaced with a higher output board. You ca. utilize the same footprint, ie a 5' of hi cap fir a 5' of regular residential. High capacity board is roughly 2" higher and will provide roughly 810 btu/hr per sqft of board.

    There was an error rendering this rich post.

  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,469
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    ??? and ???

    Boiler is large enough based on the heatloss. There is enough baseboard, based on the heat loss. You can get 180 degree water from the boiler(running ODR) at 25 degrees, which(possibly) implies an incorrect design day parameter, but not one that should have created the problem they had. Just observations....
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    Thought I would bring some info down to bottom of thread

    hot water baseboard heat

    ok thank you. I got the heat loss calc last night. It basically has measurements for each room in th house. it put the indoor temp at 70 dgerees, outdoor at 3, and system design hot water at 180. 1st floor heat loss at bth/hr is 31, 742, job total 45, 012. 2nd floor heat loss 13, 270, same job total. baseboard for 1st floor in fine/line 30 (lin/ft) is 56.5 and 2nd floor is 23.5. floor factor .09 on 1st floor, 0 on 2nd floor. infiltration factor .018 on 2nd floor in all rooms, and on 1st floor same thing, except 2 rooms have a .012. I have lots more numbers. just let me know what else you need. 2nd floor ceiling factor .05. I have exosed windows/doors per room as well. I can post the results, but it may be too small to see. let me know.





    http://www.slantfin.com/images/stories/Product-Literature/catalogsheet_fineline30_30_10.pdf
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
    edited January 2014
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    Tad bit

    Under radiated if conservative. So setback will struggle especially below design temps.



    We don't know how the 700 square foot room which has no heat is effecting heatloss of the rest of house. Cold partitions to heated rooms were they accounted for in the heat loss.



    Heat loss subjective to inputs of who ever did calcs.



    Why 170 baseboard temps if od temp was 25 and design was 3 in heat loss calcs. Boost mode? Supply temps while room temps are 70, and there is a heat call especially if outdoor temp is 55 today would be helpful



    Reset curve being correct?



    Set back coupled with odr conflicting control strategy.





    Are baseboard elements clean? Are baseboards blocked by furniture or window treatments?

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