Hot water baseboard heating

SWEI

Inlets and outlets

The boiler in and boiler out ports are close to each other, near the bottom.  The DHW in and DHW ports are far apart -- cold near the bottom of the tank and hot is near the top of the tank.  If the cold water and hot water ports were reversed, it would produce symptoms similar to what you describe.



A cast iron tub in a cold bathroom can absorb quite a bit of heat, and often requires filling with "too hot" water to produce a comfortable bath.   A polymer tub does not have that issue.



Does your system have a tempering valve as the drawing below shows?

SWEI

That sounds right

See diagram above.

baseboardheathelp

hot water baseboard heat

where would I look for the tempering valve.  I'm not sure what it is?

Ironman

Fill Rate

6.5 minutes to get about 32.5gal. of water. That's 5 gpm (gallons per minute). That's how fast you're emptying the indirect tank. I ask again: why on earth do you need to fill the tub so fast? The problem is not in the equipment. The problem is your expectation of what the equipment should do.



As I stated earlier, if the piping and pump were corrected, then the other major factor is how fast you're drawing off water. It would take a 200k btu boiler or tankless heater to keep up with a 5 gpm draw. However, your house only has a heat loss of 45k btu's? The boiler should be sized to match the heat loss of the house, not the domestic demand. Your boiler is already nearly twice the size it should be ( assuming your heat loss info is correct). Going to a bigger boiler is insanity. And, as I stated before, the 105 is only gonna give your 3/4 gpm more hot water. What's the benefit in that?



Again, you will only get about 75 - 80% draw down of the indirects storage capacity. After that, the incoming cold mixes down the remainder of the hot in the tank. This is true of any brand. Your tank is 45 gal. x 75% = 33.75 gal. That's exactly what you're getting. Ther is no issue with the indirect tank.



After that, the boiler will recharge the tank at a rate of 2.4 gpm. If your still drawing 5 gpm through the faucet, it's not gonna keep up or catch up until you shut the faucet! Then, it's going to take almost 19 minutes for the tank to be completely recharged with hot water: 45 gal. / 2.4gpm = 18.75 minutes.



The problem is that you are expecting the new equipment which is sized much closer to the house's heat loss to operate like your previous boiler which had to be grossly over-sized. Again, it's simple physics and math that you need about 200k btu's to continuously heat 5 gpm coming out of your faucet. That means that your old boiler was at least 5 times the size necessary for space heating. That's one of the reasons that your oil bill was so high.



You now have a modern high efficiency boiler that will save you considerably on your fuel bill and give you better comfort in the process. The trade off is that you need to adjust your life style a little to match the system. Slow down the hot water faucet and all will be fine - including your nerves.

SWEI

Does the Alpine have a DHW sensor?

I see one mentioned in the troubleshooting guide (pages 117 & 188 in the IOM) but no other details.  If there is one, it should be installed in the sensor well of the SSU (in place of the aquastat.)

SWEI

DHW tempering valve

is a temperature-controlled mixing valve installed at the outlet of the indirect.  One port goes to the hot water outlet, another to the cold water line, and the third feeds the fixtures in the house.  If you don't have one, that might just be the ticket.  Set the tank for 140ºF and you'll get ~20% more capacity out of the indirect.



In the diagram above, it's labeled "mixing valve."

baseboardheathelp

hot water baseboard heat

we have a mixing valve.  we have slowed down the fill rate with the lever on the tub, and it allowed us 13 minutes before completelty depleting the tank of hot water.  what rate do we need to slow it down to to have continuous hot water?  

knotgrumpy

Yes, SWEI

There is a mixing valve in one of the pictures.





About time for a Part 2 thread. This is becoming unwieldy.

Ironman

Flow Rate

As I stated, with an output of 72k btu's from your boiler, it will heat your water at 2.4 gal. per minute. An energy saver faucet ( which is required by code now), would limit you to 2.5 gpm, total ( hot + cold). The hot is typically 80% of that when you're showering.



Of course, you'll still get what's stored in the tank ( about 32 gal.). But if you limit the draw to 2.4 gpm, the boiler should keep up.



As I mentioned before, I have a large family ( all girls, but one) and when we rely only on our 50 gal. gas water heater which has a 42k btu burner, we have no problem having enough hot water. We do have energy saver faucets and sometimes someone has to wait about twenty minutes if there have been two showers right before them.



When our outdoor wood boiler is fired, which is 200k btu's, we never run out even with two showers simultaneously going.

baseboardheathelp

hot water baseboard heating

so the new pump, Taco 0011, is the green pump facing us.  The other green pump to the right of it, closest to the hot water tank, is a Taco 007-F5.

Rich_49

Burnham Manual

http://cdn.usboiler.net/products/boilers/alpine/assets/AlpineIOManual.pdf

     I spoke with Burnham tech this morning guys and it seems to me that the boys in that department don't have that broad a product knowledge .  For instance when I asked if this boiler when on Priority interrupted power to the boiler pump during a call I was told ," No and that cannot happen " , Now we know this is not so by the drawing and explanation of pump sizing from page 65 I believe .  Could the boiler have bee4n left at default values which are 170* water to the indirect , if so the water actually reaching the HX is probably only 162 until this morning when the pump was changed ?  Could the stat in the indirect not be set high enough to say 150-160* which would substantially increase the storage capacity of this heater to that of a 60 gallon tank . At worst these folks should have 33.75 gallons at their disposal . Could these guys have installed the mixer and not increased the tank temp , boiler temp during a call ,  maybe it is not even set on priority ?  I know I am stretching here but something is terribly wrong , we have all seen some very strange stuff I am sure . Could Frustratedandcold whom posted the other thread in fact be friends with this guy and the reason he cannot help him is because he is out there trying to figure out what is wrong with baseboardheathelps' system .  

   The homeowner will possibly post the BTU requirements for each room and tell us how many feet of heat are in those rooms also so we cabn begin to understand that problem also . No way an 80 should not be heating a 50K home .    

baseboardheathelp

hot water baseboard heat

I am unable to get my scanner to work to get the heat loss up. I double checked and the numbers I posted earlier are accurate.  let me know if something is missing

Ironman

As Others Have Posted

A set of thermometers on the supply and return from each zone would be greatly beneficial in diagnosing that issue. It may simply be air binding. Also could be that the reset curve needs adjusting.



There have been so many mis-conceptions thrown at this system, particularly by the installers, that it's hard to know what's what.



I'm familiar with this boiler and its control and it can be set to drop out the boiler pump during a domestic call. See page 103 of the I&O manual. However, with this customer's piping arrangement, the boiler pump should be set to run with a call for either while the SYSTEM pump is shut off during a domestic call.



Another mis-conception is that the head of the boiler should be added to the head loss of the indirect. That is NOT true as there is hydraulic separation provided by the closely spaced Tees that allow the boiler to inject into the manifold. The only way that hydraulic interference would happen is if either flow rate in the manifold was excessive (over 4 fps) because the diameter of the manifold was too small.

Rich_49

Boiler Head

If you drop the boiler pump you must certainly add all heads involved in the circuit . If the boiler pump was dropped during a domestic call your operating pump would have to move enough water through the entire circuit , boiler HX , indirect HX , and piping . I do agree that on this installation the boiler pump should remain on during all operations .  But we have no idea how this guy did initial set up , a definite problem that we face trying to come to conclusions .

FrustratedandCold

rich

I assure you our installers are not the same. I did get in touch with hotwaterbaseboard, and know we are not dealing with the same group, though that would be sadly funny.

I found the burnham field tech to be very helpful, he was in pensylvania by coincidence. If hotwaterbaseboard would like to speak with him, he may be able to help get her installer on the right course.



You guys are all terrific, and we are both fortunate to have your input. I hope that hotwaterbaseboard gets their system straightened out soon.



As for my installer, his issues are personal, fortunately I am able to step in with a little guidance and do my best to troubleshoot, and try to resolve.

PLUMMER

Real world ssu-30 in my own home

In my house with a 72,600btu NIBR output and the SSU-30 I can run all 3 body sprays, shower head and hand spray continuous. Sometimes even the dishwasher is running. But no other zones. Now my temp differential on the boiler inlet and outlet is roughly 12-18 degrees using a 0010 pump and boiler supply at 188-196 according to the viega strap ons. The tank stat is at 150 approx and set to turn on pretty quickly. After water runs for 3-4 minutes straight. I believe its 10 degrees or less delta T. My probe is set in lots of thermal grease in the well.



When the HO stated a few posts up that the inlet was very hot and the return was very cold, this makes me think there is way to little flow still. There is no way the 45 coil is cooling off more than 20 degrees with the correct flow. I wonder if they put a 0011 sticker on a 007 pump???? Are there cooling fins on the new pump motor?



Could we get updated pics? Even a pic of the calc sheet too works with a good camera

JeremyN

She's referring to the tank water input/output...

... not the boiler water input/output. Someone suggested a few posts back that the installers may have mixed up the piping with this so I had her run the hot water for a bit a feel the pipes. Her findings are that hot water is being drawn from the top of the tank and cold water being replenished from the bottom. As far as I know, this is the way it should be.

baseboardheathelp

hot water baseboard heat

at 8am today, I put the heat up 6 degrees.  It is now 11:30 and it has not reached that 6th degree, and has gone up only 5 degrees in 3.5 hours. I know we are only supposed to set back up to 5 degrees, but this seems ridiculously slow.  some day I prefer the heat to be on a higher temp if I am home the majority of the day

Rich_49

BBHH

Please post the lengths of baseboard in each room . Include how many BTUs are required as per the heal loss and the amount (footage) of baseboard that is installed in that room .

baseboardheathelp

hot water baseboard heat

this posting is baseboard length and btu heat loss per room: 1st floor-18, 10,436;     8, 4,470;      14, 8,129;        8.5, 4,697;        4, 1,191;       4, 2,119

2nd floor: 7, 3,870;       5.5, 3,181;         5.5, 3,006;        5.5, 3,213

Rich_49

T average ?

So this home is approximately 945 square feet on the first floor .   That would for arguments sake make the perimeter walls roughly equal to 128 lineal feet , can we assume that this is pretty near the Total equivalent length of the first floor zone circuit ?   Let's for a minute imagine that this installer knew exactly what he was doing and calculated the output of the baseboard per foot at a given flow and average water temp, maybe 1 GPM @ 170*, the numbers work and every room on this first floor zone seems to have enough baseboard .  The problem is that the average water temp is not 170* in every piece of baseboard . As you travel through the circuit every piece has a lower T* ave. therefore putting out less BTU at the same flow as the piece before . You see where I am headed ?    Here is an equation from MHH3  Delta T = BTUh divided by 500x flow . This house as described by the numbers   31742 divided by 500x3(1500) = 21.16* Delta T .  The problem is I believe we are here or worse  31742 divided by 500x1(500) = 63.48* Delta T . Guys a 007 can't do this , PERIOD .   It can move 1 GPM @ just under 10 feet hd and 3 GPM @ just a little less head than that .What pump can we offer as a suggestion that is capable of delivering 3 GPM and guaranteeing a proper Delta T ?  008 VDT, 0013 VDT .  At least then we can count on an average temp of 170* right smack in the middle of the circuit .  Remember the old oil boiler was oversized , probably had a monster pump and was more likely than not making hotter water than what we can now . 

 I would be willing to bet that the equivalent length of this circuit is 200 + feet and their is I believe a kickspace heater within it .  There is certainly a low flow condition here . Luckily it is one that can be overcome with the right pump . Note to self , please write Taco and ask if they could stop production of 007 that everyone thinks is the right pump . Was that my outside voice ?  

RobG

Tub and Faucet

I know this is not the main problem, but could you post a couple of pictures of the tub and the tub and shower valve and shower head?

Pughie1

Baseboard Simulator

Guys - I've got something that might help but, i'm not to good at this computer stuff. Not sure how to attach a file to my post. Perhaps some one could be so patient as to walk me through the proceedure?

John Pughe

Rich_49

HDS

Are you using Hydronics Design Studio ?  You should be able to save a file for this job if so . Save to documents , after writing your post hit the file attachment Browse button , go to documents highlight the project , open it and it should attach . Is that what you needed ?

Pughie1

Rich

Rich,

  Thanks so much, I'm very bad about this computer stuff, thats exactly what I am looking for. I am using the baseboard module basically just to back up exactly what you were saying in your earlier post about the 1st floor. I can't believe how helpful you guys have been for these poor folks, in reading your posts you have a lot of time invested in this project, kudos to you. I'll try and give what you said a try. Thanks so much for responding.



John



PS I would have responded earlier but, I can't seem to get the math right! LOL

Ironman

Baseboards

Those lengths assume an output of 580 btu's per lineal foot of element. The problem with using that number (580) is that's the maximum that the BB can put out with 180* water flowing through it at 4 gpm. If a system is running at 170* average water temp (180* in, 160* return) at 2 gpm, the output is gonna be around 500 btu's per lineal foot. Then, take into consideration that your BB are older, probably could use a good cleaning, etc. and you could very well be getting 450 btu's per foot. A lot less than the installer assumed. This is a very common mistake in the trade to assume 580 per foot.



I would recommend that you clean you baseboards with a vacuum after taking the covers off. Be careful not to damage the fins and straighten any that are bent. If there's a lot of stubborn dirt that won't come out with the vacuum, a gentle brush can be used. Once clean, put the covers back in place making sure they snap on all the way. Also make sure the damper is positioned properly where it can pivot open and closed and leave it open. Also, make sure that carpet is not up under the BB restricting air movement into it. There should be at least one inch clearance between the bottom of the BB and your floor covering.



The other thing to do would be to have the reset curve adjusted higher to give warmer water.



Third, don't use more than 4* setback or none at all if you're doing it to try to save fuel because it's not. It actually uses more. Also, the boost function can be adjusted to raise the water temp faster.



There's also the possibility that the system could still have air in it and it needs purging. Air will bind the flow of water.



Having the supply and return temps of each loop would greatly aid in diagnosing if there's still any hydronic issues.

Pughie1

Baseboard Sizing

For what it's worth, in support of Rich & Bob.

Using the Hydronic design studio - Baseboard module and inputing the following -  as an example.

Argo low trim BB at 690 BTU's/Ft rated at 200*/1 GPM with 15% heating effect factor removed = as Bob said - 587BTU's/ft max.

Pluggin in the heat loss for each room on the 1st floor, shows the following reqd. BB for each room.

Taco 007 circ selected, 180* starting temp, 200' equilivant length piping as Rich estimated yields the following results.

As Bob said 587 probably too high, using a lower value makes the senerio even worse with regard to the installed BB being short.

Hope this may help, just my 2 cents. Rich - here goes I'll try to attach this

Pughie1

WHOOPS

Did something wrong, I'll try again. Dam!!

Pughie1

Trying again

Here goes again!



John

Pughie1

Sorry guys

Sorry guys, I'll try again later, time to feed the dogs, as a matter of fact, they'd probably have better luck than stupid me!

John

baseboardheathelp

hot water baseboard heat

so are you saying the Taco 007 pump that is to the right of the new 011 pump needs to be changed out?  what should it be replaced with? 

Steamfitter66

I'm confused

I thought the house heated just fine before the boiler replacement. Probably because the old boiler was set at 200 maybe 210.

I still think the parameters are not set correctly and the boost function I mentioned back near the top of this saga is not set correctly.

Rich_49

Steamfitter

I believe you may have part of it there . The major factor here is that a 007 cannot , never could , will never move enough fluid to heat this home at any temp . On the first floor zone it would appear that there is actually 63+ feet of installed radiation and a total equivalent circuit length of 200 - 210 ft  . This circuit really needs to flow 3 . 17 GPM to achieve a 20 Degree Delta T across it . This little 007 is certainly killing itself trying to achieve and only realistically able to put 1 GPM through this circuit

  See my  T average post . , 

Rich_49

007

You would be understanding that correctly .

Steamfitter66

The 007 is the cause of more

issues on the wall than any other single piece of hydronic equipment. A ups15-58 makes life so simple. One 15-58 can eat a lot of tacos.

Rich_49

Its a shame

I think a more fair statement would be that un qualified persons are the cause of more problems that appear on The Wall .  Let's face it we have all made very good use of the 007 without incident . To the unrefined the 007 can take care of everything , why use anything other than what many manufacturers include with boiler packages .  I'd be willing to bet that some of these young men don't know there is any pump manufacturers other than Taco & Grundfos . 

   Tech guys at these factories must get so frustrated with these calls from people asking questions about what is clearly in the manual then being abused as if their equipment is a piece of trash . All boilers should be designed around what the uninformed have knowledge of is their mindset .

Little boxes with warnings and cautions all over the manual mean nothing , hell they are even in bold print as if to jump up and down and wave their hands saying " HEY PLEASE READ ME , WHY ARE"NT YOU PAYING ANY ATTENTION TO ME , DON"T I MATTER IN YOUR LIFE , IAM PRETTY IMPORTANT "  This thing appears to me when I see it like my wife when she is annoyed  , Warning , ignore to your own peril !  Unfortunately as we married folk all know there are always innocent bystanders affected by the following events !  

 This bold print statement is in one of those little BLACK BOXES

It is the installers responsibility to select pumps

It is the installers responsibility to select pumps

and boiler piping configurations that provide the

proper flow rates and performance for the boiler

and indirect water heater.  

 The following is from Page 54 :



It is often very difficult to accurately calculate

the pressure drop through the system.

d. In replacement installations, it may be nearly

impossible to get an accurate measurement of

piping amount and number of fittings in the

system. If system is zoned, the system flow rate

may drop well below recommended minimum

flow when only a single zone is calling for heat

And Don't forget the various charts and language associated with them .

    Fact is that the 007 is not going anywhere and why should it ?  Maybe there should be a warning included with all circulators stating that

" verification of the effectiveness of using this circulator in any system is the responsibility of the installer " The manufacturer accepts no liability for damage to other system components , losses by the end user , any obligations that arise due to improper installation of this product . Installer shall be responsible for all damages due to improper use " 

    No that won't do any good either because until there is a way to verify ones qualifications this will continue and unfortunately accelerate in it's frequency .    

baseboardheathelp

hot water baseboard heat

ok, so that other Taco 007 is also wrong...but what pump should it be replaced with??

Ironman

007

A Taco 008, a Grundfos UPS15-58 (which replaces a Taco 007 or 008 on high speed) or a Taco 015 which can replace the Grundfos UPS15-58.



The Grundfos and the 015 are both 3 speed pumps which allows for a wider range of application.



The best choice would be a variable speed delta Tee pump like the Taco Bumble Bee or the 008 VSDT, not to be confused with the standard 008. What these pumps do is sense the supply and return temps on the zone loops and then vary their speed to achieve a pre-selected delta T (temp differential). This way the pump is moving water at a rate that matches the load from the zones. If one zone valve is open, the pump runs slower. If multiple zones are open, the pump speeds up to match the demand.



Either one will bolt right into the flanges where the 007 is now.

SWEI

15-58

Is quite a bit different (on any setting) than a 007.  It's got more head and flow on high than a 008, but speeds 1 & 2 come pretty close to the 008 curve.

knotgrumpy

Boiler display

I believe that your boiler has a display like in the picture below.  When you run hot water, what is the temp displayed on the panel?



When the water is off and boiler is running just heating the baseboard, what temp does the display show?



Thanks



knotgrumpy