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Hot water baseboard heating

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  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    Thermostat

    If the thermostat is in the master bedroom where you most desire the low set point, and you keep that door shut then solar gain during the day is the only other thing that comes to mind to elevate the temp in that room.



    As others mentioned you have a different type of boiler that will lower your has bill if you let it. With that being said some life style habits may need to be changed with your set back habits.



    If you get the curve dialed in I think it will be much better. But setting the temp

    That low up stairs compared to the down stairs is really making the down stairs convect faster to the up stairs.



    I think you will HAVE to live with out set back to get the most efficiency your new boiler has to offer. Running on boost all the time really is not letting it run at its top efficiency maybe only in the high 80% range. This would hold true with ANY brand of modulating boiler.



    The lower the supply temp you run the more efficient they are.
  • quack24
    quack24 Member Posts: 74
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    final ruling

    So what is the final ruling under radiated high expectations or just misunderstanding?
  • knotgrumpy
    knotgrumpy Member Posts: 211
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    Before it is done

    I'd still like to see the water temperatures while the system is at its normal operating set point. 64*~



    Still curious on that.
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,469
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    Things We Know

           The system, in boost mode will produce 180* water. We can only assume that it produced 180* water during the actic blast we just had. The downstairs of the home would not get above 66* during that period. Not enough heat was being emitted to counteract the heat loss of the area, which points to not enough radiation.

          
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
    edited January 2014
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    I think

    That arctic vortex period they were still toying wit the setback and we're probably below design temp of +3* Paul



    Like Chris pointed out the flow rates are a bit mysterious in that they had a 20 degree delta on a 55 degree day with 180 supply temps
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,469
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    Curve

    I (think) they set the design day at 25*, and the boost on a timer? Either way, we know the system will produce 180* water. The setback should lead to extended recovery periods( not good), but not as in this case, complete inability to recover.I'm afraid the truth is getting lost in the facts....complete, incomplete, or completely wrong, as they may be.
  • baseboardheathelp
    baseboardheathelp Member Posts: 141
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    hot water baseboard heat

    we still have been leaving it at 64, and not setting back.  it has been rather warm out the past few days, so no cold days yet to check temps.  We had the curve tweeked a bit, but I'm not sure to what.  I think our boiler is set for 185.
  • knotgrumpy
    knotgrumpy Member Posts: 211
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    Water Temperature Readings

    On normal days would be interesting as well. 
  • baseboardheathelp
    baseboardheathelp Member Posts: 141
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    hot water baseboard heat

    so we have a family member who just converted today to the superstore 45 and the alpine 105.  his house is half the size of ours, about 1300 sq feet give or take.  The plumber said that he put in the 105 and will tone it down to be more like an alpine 85 to 90, but the reason he did this was to make the hot water heat faster.  he said the full 105 will work to heat the hot water, and the extra 25,000 btu's will help recover the tank about twice as fast as the alpine 80.  he told us we should have gone with the 105.  any thoughts on this?  does this make sense, or is it just not efficient at that point?
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    edited January 2014
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    It will make more DHW

    but the boiler is almost certainly going to short cycle during shoulder seasons.
  • baseboardheathelp
    baseboardheathelp Member Posts: 141
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    hot water baseboard heat

    will it short cycle even if they tune the 105 down to be more like an 85 or 90?
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
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    They can limit the maximum firing rate

    but that will not reduce the minimum firing rate.
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,376
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    Doesn't make sense

    Why put in a boiler that 25k btu's larger and then limit the firing rate by 25k btu's?



    And no, it will not heat the water twice as fast. It would only heat it 3/4 gpm faster at 105k btu's. Limiting the firing rate to 80k means it will not heat it any faster at all.



    Where has common sense gone?
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • baseboardheathelp
    baseboardheathelp Member Posts: 141
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    hot water baseboard heat

    we thought it seemed odd too.  that is what they offered to do here at one point as well and we refused.  now if the 105 heats the water 3/4 gallon per minute faster, and our ssu45 takes about 20 or so minutes to recover hot water once all hot water is used, how fast would it take the 105 to recover the hot water once all hot water has been used?  the plumber was saying that the 105 would recover hot water in 10 minutes as opposed to 20 minutes.  is this wrong?  and you are saying if it is tuned down to the alpine 85-90 range, it can no longer heat the water 3/4 gpm faster anyways.  that is what we were thinking but we weren't sure if the alpine somehow acted different when calling for hot water then when it does for calling for heat.
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,376
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    45 gal.

    If it takes 20 minutes to heat a 45 gal. tank, how is increasing that by 3/4 gpm gonna cut the time in half? Do the math.



    A btu: the amount of heat required to raise temp of one pound of water one degree. There are 8.33 lbs. of water in one gal. Btu's are typically expressed in "per hour". Gpm = gallons per minute. Thus, btu's per hour must be divided by 60 to convert to per minute.
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • RobG
    RobG Member Posts: 1,850
    edited January 2014
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    Hot water

    To put it simply, if it takes 20 minutes to heat your hot water tank with an 80k boiler, to heat the water in 10 minutes would take a 160k boiler. (all things being equal).

    This is a very simple way to think about it. However it is not such a simple equation



    Rob
  • Hydro
    Hydro Member Posts: 20
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    Alpine 80

    I have run into this problem, more than once, and I have to say that most of the time when the indirect will not keep up on these Alpine boilers it is the control parameters that are set up in the Sage controller set up menu. These are commonly set up wrong, and if left to the default menu, this setting is incorrect. Typically, most " factory reps." that I have encountered in the MA./ New England area are actually educated sales reps, employed by the wholesaler. Many are quite knowledgeable, however many more are not. It is very important to make sure these parameters are set properly and ruled out, as this is the number one reason for a IWH not keeping up with demand, in my humble experience.

    in the set up menu; System pump should be set to "Central Heat, Optional Priority"

    Boiler pump should be set to "Any Demand"

    DHW should be set to "Primary Loop Piped IWH"

    DHW Priority Enable is Optional (typically enabled)

    Also, in the adjust menu, under the DHW setting, the DHW set point should be set at 180 degrees. The common misconception is that this is the DHW temperature set point , when in fact this is the boiler water design temp. to produce the desired output of potable hot water. (some times techs. will lower this in the summer months)

    also in the DHW menu, Sleep Setback is 170 deg.

    Above Differential is 2 deg.

    Below Differential is 10 deg.

    There was an error rendering this rich post.

  • Hydro
    Hydro Member Posts: 20
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    Alpine 80

    I would also like to say that I thoroughly enjoyed this thread, and all of the knowledge out there that was provided. I know I am late to the dance but just in case, I couldn't help chiming in just because in this area, there are many installers, but not many technicians.

    I see it all the time boilers installed without a proper heat loss, no combustion analysis,

    wrong controls, etc.

    Cheers

    There was an error rendering this rich post.

  • LCHutton
    LCHutton Member Posts: 10
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    Some thoughts

    I found this thread as I have a similar “insufficient” heat issue. I’ll post an explanation of my problem as a separate thread.



    I can tell you that I’m very impressed with the dedication of all of those trying to help the OP and equally impressed by Weezbo’s, Ironmans’s and Rich’s explanation of flow resistance. I’m an engineer with 40 years experience with fluid flow in pipe & valves in power stations and can say that explanations are 100% correct. The only difference between their explanations and my experience is that in the power industry, we usually use different units. Instead of pressure loss in feet of head and flow in GPM, we normally use PSI and LB/Hr. It’s obvious that the OP’s installers only understand static head and not the resistance to flow caused pipe diameter, elbows, valves, coils, etc. (FYI, in some power plant pressure drop calculations we don’t even include static head because it is so small compared to the other pressures.)



    Before today, I had only heard of these High Efficiency boilers but did not even know how they worked, so I did a little research on what you call mod/con boilers. Perhaps I’ve misunderstood something in this thread but I see two issues:



    If I read the one post correctly, their heat loss is about forty five thousand BTU/Hr (45.012MBH). This fact isn’t significant but certainly contributes to their problem: According to the Burnham catalog, the net output of the Alpine ALP080B boiler is 63,000 BTU/Hr, not the 80,000 being used in some of the above calculations.



    In the Q&A section of another Burnham brochure it states: 
The Alpine boiler will work in most types of installations. For large water volume systems using cast iron radiation, Alpine boilers are a good choice. For high temperature systems, such as fin-tube style baseboard systems, or in homes where it may be impractical to vent a boiler directly to outside air without using a chimney, the Burnham ES2, Series 3, or Series 2 gas boilers may be a more viable option. A consultation with a professional home heating contractor will provide the best answer.



    So, since I’m certainly not very knowledgeable about heating, but just going from what I’ve read in other posts and a few catalogs, I’d say this Boiler is just not suitable for this application. It’s efficiency is derived from running water at much lower temperatures while this house’s baseboard system was designed for higher water temperatures. Furthermore, based on the above descriptions, my guess is the setback thermostat confuses the boiler’s control system.



    The problem is the OP was sold the wrong Boiler and its capacity is marginal. I don’t know enough to say if additional baseboard will help or if the solution is just a higher temperature boiler. While the Rep adjusted for 180°F water, that boiler’s efficiency wasn’t based on that temperature. Also, the flue gas temperature could be an issue at that temperature.



    This reminds me of an issue with other equipment that wasn’t working properly. The manufacturer, supplier and installer all knew what the problem was but they were all afraid that whoever was the first to suggest a solution had to pay for that solution. Here, the supplier doesn’t want to replace the ALP080B with an ES2-4 or Series 3, Model 304 or a different brand.
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    Alpine 80 output

    LCHutton,



    You are looking at the net IBR output, and not the DOE output. Net IBR is when the boiler, and piping are in an unconditioned space so you need to derate the output. So the DOE output is 73K.



    Even if it is a high temp emitter installation you still benefit through modulation in fuel savings with a mod/con boiler. Running on low temp emitters such as radiant adds to the condensing efficiency which is a little extra icing on the efficiency cake, but most of the gained efficiency is through being able to modulate the boilers output to the load. This is not the case with a cast iron boiler with a bang on, bang off control strategy.



    In all reality there should be plenty of boiler for this heat loss calculation, but then that is subjective to whom did the calculation. Another observation that needed to be made was if the emitters were ample enough to heat the space with this type of boiler running lower water temps to reap some of the condensing efficiency.



    Usually in a boiler replacement the home is over radiated, and original boiler is oversized due to envelope upgrades that may have been done to an older home (no one ever complains about having enough heat) IF the original installer did the math right (never trust another person).



    You are correct the setback the HO Is trying to use is confusing the boiler control strategy. With these types of boilers they are best left to let thier own logic drive the system if setup properly. With VIessmann Boilers there is no thermostat (its an option).
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
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    Baseboard and mod/cons

    To add to what Gordy wrote http://www.fcxalaska.com/PDFs/AshraeCondensingTechnology.pdf
  • LCHutton
    LCHutton Member Posts: 10
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    Additional info appreciated

    Gordy

    Thank you for the correction. I just guessed that the lower value would be the realistic output (your mileage will vary, etc.) but you did confirm the output of this boiler is less than the 80 MBH being used in this thread.



    SWEI

    Thank you for the link to the presentation. I showed that my concern regarding 180°F water is not warranted. However, I believe it indicates that their 160°F return might be an issue.



    Also, on page 30, it shows that additional heating surface area is required when the circulating water temperature is reduced. That's logical. Their baseboard heat was designed for a constant temperature (probably around 180°F) whereas the new system is supposed to vary the output water temperature based on the outside temperature.



    I believe that I was correct in saying this mod/con boiler is not suitable for heating the OP's home using the existing baseboard heat.



    I presume that when there is demand for DHW, the boiler defaults to its highest output temperature. If not, you can't heat the water in the storage tank to 135° if the incoming water is only 120°F.
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    You are incorrect

    In that this boiler is not a good boiler for this home. You only need 180 supply temps on the coldest design day which is only 1% of the heating season........usually.



    The output btus are there all most double the heat loss calculated if done correctly.



    As the OAT warms the supply temp can be lowered this is done by outdoor reset. In this particular case their aggressive setback is being counter productive to the ODR logic there just is not enough emitter to catch up to the load coming out of set back. There is more than likely issues that can not be put together to solve this issue when we are all 1000's of miles away,and over the internet.



    Such has already been posted sometimes lifestyle changes need to take place. I for one am anti setback unless your going to be out of town for the weekend, or longer, or are on a high rate utility(oil,LP,electric). Or if you have a poor envelope to begin with.
  • knotgrumpy
    knotgrumpy Member Posts: 211
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    So how is it working?

    HWBH - Haven't heard much from you.  How are you doing with your system?



    Any changes?
  • baseboardheathelp
    baseboardheathelp Member Posts: 141
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    hot water baseboard heat

    so far without setting back and having the curve changed a bit, the heat seems to be able to maintain that temp.  if we have needed to bump the heat up for when guests come over, it has been able to do that.  our bill has gone up substantially, but it has also been a cold month and we have been running the gas fireplace a lot as well, so I guess that is expected.
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
    edited January 2014
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    Fireplace

    Is a lot of your gas bill that is probably 30-40k btus so if your using it a lot to heat that's the bulk of your increased billing. Gas fireplaces are not real efficient for solely heating a space, more for ambience than anything. Most of the btus go up the chimney. You need to get some baseboard, or panel radiators in that space.



    Is the boiler still mostly running on high fire 100% modulation! or is the reset curve dialed in better?



    Also you can't confuse your gas bill being high with colder than normal temps. Do you really have anything to compare to with the old boiler, and similar weather conditions?
  • baseboardheathelp
    baseboardheathelp Member Posts: 141
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    hot water baseboard heat

    yea I think the fireplace is either 40,000 or 60,000 btu's.  we have been told that we cannot put baseboard in this room, or it is not a good idea, because it is above an unheated garage, and freezing pipes could be an issue.  I'm not sure what the curve was reset to.  I am not sure how to tell this.  
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    Fireplace

    Yeah that's almost like running another boiler.



    As for the heat to the garage anything is possible if done right. A vented wall hung gas heater would be far more efficient than that fireplace.
  • baseboardheathelp
    baseboardheathelp Member Posts: 141
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    hot water baseboard heat

    actually the fireplace is 65,000 btu's.  didn't realize it was like running another boiler!  hopefully the alpine 80 can support baseboard in this room then
  • LCHutton
    LCHutton Member Posts: 10
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    You are correct

    that it is tough to solve their problem from 1000's of miles away and I was incorrect to say that their new boiler is not suitable for their installation because, as I said I'm not an expert plus we don't have enough details to say that. If I knew enough to solve their problem, I should be able to solve my problem.



    However, to paraphrase the manufacturer regarding their Alpine boiler:



    For high temperature systems, such as fin-tube style baseboard systems, ..., the Burnham ES2, Series 3, or Series 2 gas boilers may be a more viable option.
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,376
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    Bad Info Again

    You've been given incorrect info again. If pipe freezing is really an issue, there are controls that exercise the circ at selected intervals to prevent freezing. Or, you could simply add glycol to the system. Given the fact that you have 3/4" piping throughout most of your system, it shouldn't require much. There will be a slight decrease in heat carrying ability, but adding more BB would more than compensate for that.
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • baseboardheathelp
    baseboardheathelp Member Posts: 141
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    hot water baseboard heat

    ok thanks for the info.  We would really like to add baseboard to this room, 24 by 28 feet, since the gas fireplace is not efficient.  should the alpine 80 be able to support adding baseboard in this room?  We have been told yes and no
  • LCHutton
    LCHutton Member Posts: 10
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    Take advice of the experts

    I've re-read much of this thread and based on my limited knowledge, it seems as you should be following the advice of the experts who have responded. For example:



    If the pump is too small get the larger one installed.

    If the piping is reversed, get that turned around. Temperature stratification in your tank might be limiting your DMH supply.

    Pick one temperature for the second floor and set it. If the bedroom is still too warm close the vents.

    Pick one temperature for the first floor and set it. Do not turn it back. A set back thermostat is not always a cost saver: Picture this:



    Let's say it's 3° outside and the thermostat is set to 70°F. If you then set it to 75°F, it will take a certain amount of time for the inside temperature to reach 75°F. Now, take all of the furniture out of the house and turn the thermostat back again to 70°F. When it reaches 70°F, turn it back to 75°F. Do you see that it will less time to heat the house from 70°F to 75°F when there is not furniture inside? That's because, not only does the heating system have to heat the air and walls inside your house, it has to heat the furniture as well. The more furniture and other mass you have, the longer it will take.



    In this scenario, your system can provide the 45 MBH to maintain the constant 70°F. The problem is that it leaves only about 25 MBH to heat the other stuff. Also, and someone needs to check my math, 25 MBH can heat about 3/4 GPM of water from 50°F to 120°F. So, even if the outside temperature were in the 30's and the house was set to 62°F and the boiler provided 50 MBH to DMW, you would still only get 1.5 GPM.



    I didn't find how big your storage tank is but if you want 35 gallons of hot water for a bath, you'll need a bigger tank.
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,376
    edited January 2014
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    Should Be Fine

    I don't remember your exact heat loss numbers, but if think your current BB radiation is capable of emitting 40-45k btu's. That means at 73k btu's output, the boiler has another 28-33k btu's available. That room shouldn't need more than about 23k btu's, maybe less. What was your heat loss calc for the room?



    Remember, you get about 500 btu's per foot for standard BB. That means if the heat loss is 20k btu's, you need 40 feet of BB. There are higher output BBs if space is an issue or you could look at using panel rads (my choice).
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • baseboardheathelp
    baseboardheathelp Member Posts: 141
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    hot water baseboard heat

    I just took a look at the heat loss calc, and there is not one done for this room.  Would that be because it has no baseboard, or should that room have been done too?
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,376
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    Calc

    You need to do one. You don't need to re-do the entire house. Just do it separately or edit the previous one to include this.
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • baseboardheathelp
    baseboardheathelp Member Posts: 141
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    hot water baseboard heat

    is there a way for us to do the heat loss calc on this room, or do we need to get the company to come back and do it?
  • knotgrumpy
    knotgrumpy Member Posts: 211
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    Garage

    Is the ceiling of the garage (floor of this room) insulated?
  • baseboardheathelp
    baseboardheathelp Member Posts: 141
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    hot water baseboard heating

    I'm not sure if there is insulation in the garage ceiling.  the old owners built the garage, then later built the room on top of it.  I would assume a builder would put in insulation before putting in the flooring, but I'm not sure.
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,376
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    Heat loss calc

    I thought you had it already. As a matter of fact, I thought you had posted it somewhere on here, but I'm not willing to read through 475 posts to find it.



    On another post by Nasdaqam there's a link to download the SlantFin heat loss program which you can use to calculate it.



    In all honesty, if there's nothing unusual about the construction, the previous numbers I gave you of 20-23k btu's should be more than sufficient to cover it. Having extra emitters is a good thing, so if in doubt, add a little more BB.
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.

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