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Re: Let me try this again, this time with a 1" supply pipe. Surely that will cause trouble!
Thanks for the video .. Thinking the increase of system pressure caused by the smaller supply condensed the steam .
Big Ed_4
Re: Triple Aquastat
I got so focused on the wiring, that I missed the capped tankless coil and the reason why there was a triple aquastat. They should have changed out the control when they capped the HX and saved a lot of fuel.
I installed the 2-pump control and a simple L6006 aquastat this morning and all is good.
Re: Undersized steam supply causes carryover, right? Right??
IMHO you have to keep in mind the load connected to the boiler as well.
I know for a fact that one job we did in a school that we had issues with. An HB SMITh model 28 boiler brand new 2 of them in fact with 1 5" supply from each boiler piped exactly how the MFG shows in their manual.
I know no one will believe this story.
We did not size the boiler. We just installed what the "engineer " picked and he wasn't an engineer.
We removed two old boilers much larger than what was installed.
On a cold start with both boilers beginning to steam you could not keep water in the boiler. The gauge glass went berserk with the water level jumping up and down violently. tripping low water and bringing on the feed pumps.
This is what I think was happening. And yes the boilers had been skimmed several times.
When the boilers fired and began making steam slowly (large elementary school with a mile of 6" main)
steam started making its way into the system. But there was so much cold 6" pipe and the boilers (I believe undersized) the steam condensed putting a vacuum in the main as the steam collapsed. (2 pipe steam with traps). Now in the instance of a cold start all the water in the boiler has to be at 212 before making steam. Pull a vacuum on the boiler and water happens to the water in the boiler?. It starts to flash and the water level goes nuts You actually for a short time condensing the steam as fast or faster than the boiler(s) can produce it.
They had a steam pressure transducer mounted to the main with a pressure read out and it showed a vacuum. As the boilers cycled on low water, they finally started to gain ground. As soon as the pressure transducer went to +.2psi positive everything ran normal.
Another condition a competitor of mine went through was a boiler with unstable water line. He had the boiler mfg look at it. His condensate was too hot due to traps blowing through.
Condensate was like 200 deg. MFG had the boiler rated at 160 condensate so if you fired the boiler at max normal rating for 160 condensate when the condensate was 200 your overfired..
Btus in the boiler was over what it should have been.
Complicated business.
This is why steam trap MFGs say to size traps at 2-3 times the actual condensate load for warm up load.
The steam a boiler produces isn't just the nameplate rating. Its the nameplate rating at certain conditions.
When the conditions change the output can change.
Risers and the header have to be able to take cold start
Re: Heating and Cooling Options for 1850s Greek Revival New York
Educated homeowner here who recently completed a whole house remodel from bare studs.
Please keep the cast iron radiators. The quality of heat and comfort from these is hard to beat (I had them in a previous house, and I now have radiant floor heat with a wood stove - also nice heat - I would never choose forced air).
If you are doing extensive renovations, consider improvements to the building envelope (insulation and air sealing) to reduce heat loss. This can reduce the size heating system you need by a lot (and reduce fuel cost).
Consider a hot water heat pump for domestic heating. Your cast iron radiators are likely 2-3x oversized and can run with significantly lower temperature water (120 degrees F on your coldest day) and that makes either a geothermal heat pump (somewhat expensive) or a air-source hot water heat pump (less expensive) a viable option if you are ditching the oil system (I second the recommendations from others to get rid of the oil system(s)).
Radiant floor heat is really, really nice, BUT is a lot of work to install and it is hard to find a capable designer and installer (I did this work myself). There is a lot of opportunity for a bad install with radiant floor heating. Plus, you already have cast iron radiators - if I had those already in the house I renovated I would have just used them with my geothermal heat pump instead of installing the radiant floor heating.
New York State (I think) still has some good incentives on heat pump hot water heaters and geothermal heating systems (and maybe air-source heat pump heating systems as well).
Let me try this again, this time with a 1" supply pipe. Surely that will cause trouble!
You may find this video to have a clearer message it's communicating than my last one, thank you for the feedback on that one.
In this one I run all my steam through a 1" pipe to feed my system. We'd be concerned if a homeowner came here looking for help and they had a single 1" supply pipe going to their header, right?
Re: Triple Aquastat
@Alan (California Radiant) Forbes
I got called in to start up an oil boiler once where the plumber installed a boiler for heat but it had an unused tankless coil in it so it was hot all the time.
Instead of replacing an expensive aqustat I installed a relay in front of the aquastat breaking the 120 to the aquastat with a relay pulled in from the thermostat and jumping T & T in the aqustat.
Re: Undersized steam supply causes carryover, right? Right??
Steaming boiler and a Shop-Vac, what could go wrong…
Re: Air in the heating loop
Thanks, I can be a drain at the end of the farthest baseboard and see the pressure. Was think of doing that anyway to try and purge form the 4th floor as a push and pull.
Re: Setback tstat or constant 24 hr temp as it relates to interior furnishings.
It looks like you have a ~130KBTU/hr boiler, which is probably extremely oversized for your actual heat loss - one advantage of such an oversized system is the rapid recovery from setbacks. Depending on what your control setup is, you could have the heat pump maintain steady-state at either 62F or 68F, but use the boiler to quickly recover from the setback. With programmable thermostats you might be able to do something like:
- Boiler and heat pump are 62F overnight
- At 6AM, boiler jumps to 68F and starts pumping out heat. Heat pump is still at 62F.
- At 8AM, heat pump jumps to 68F (and the house is probably already at 68F), and boiler falls back to 66F so that it only kicks on if heat pump can't maintain heat.
Re: Setback tstat or constant 24 hr temp as it relates to interior furnishings.
There are two questions here:
First is, does a setback cause a house to lose less heat? The answer is yes. The amount of heat lost to the environment is determined by the difference between the inside temperature and the outside temperature, with a setback the inside temperature is lower some of the time and loses less heat.
The second question is whether the setback will save you energy. With a combustion appliance the answer is yes, a BTU is pretty much a BTU. But with a heat pump it becomes more complicated, because a heat pump uses a variable amount of energy to produce a BTU. First, the colder it is outside, the less efficient a heat pump is. So if you're running the heat pump less when it's warmer and more when it's colder— like you would if you turned the thermostat down when the house was unoccupied during the day — the setback may not save you anything. Some heat pumps have supplemental heat, when the controller detects that the heat pump isn't meeting the heating load it energizes resistance heat to supplement the heat pump. The supplemental heat is much less efficient than the heat pump, typically about half as efficient. Often the way the heat pump detects whether the heat pump is meeting the heating load is by comparing the thermostat set point to the inside temperature. In such a system, a setback will guarantee that the supplemental heat runs regularly, which will increase your energy usage.
Generally the recommendation for heat pumps is not to use the setback.




