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Re: Boiler Steam Heat Setup
I would call that pretty horrible. It doesn't comply with the boiler manufacturer's requirements or good steamfitting practice. It should be black pipe rather than copper (except for the condensate returns). The steam main takeoffs should both be after the boiler riser and before the drop to the equalizer, not split to either side of the boiler riser as they are now, which will tend to throw water up into the left steam main. Also there is a reducer at the boiler steam outlet, which may not comply with the manufacturer's minimum piping specs depending on the rating of the boiler.delcrossv said:Your near boiler piping is incorrect, but not horrible.
How is the system working?
And the steam pipes should be insulated.
bburd
4
Re: Heating device ID
I think the booties are more protection from what is on the subfloor.
mattmia2
3
Re: Testing F+T traps, how reliable?
If Sarco did the testing, I would trust what they came up with. The modern testing equipment works well. The old way of using heat sticks, thermometers etc is not as reliable as the modern equipment.
Most large steam plants if they want their traps to work they just replace or rebuild them every 3-5 years or so. The labor it takes to go around and check every single trap is wasted labor.....you get nothing for it it 0 it cost you money. By the time you check them all you could have rebuilt bunches of them. That's just the way it is with commercial steam. And your traps with a vacuum return and high-pressure steam take more of a beating than a typical low-pressure system.
Most large steam plants if they want their traps to work they just replace or rebuild them every 3-5 years or so. The labor it takes to go around and check every single trap is wasted labor.....you get nothing for it it 0 it cost you money. By the time you check them all you could have rebuilt bunches of them. That's just the way it is with commercial steam. And your traps with a vacuum return and high-pressure steam take more of a beating than a typical low-pressure system.
Re: Old Boiler Dating
Probably installed or converted to oil in 1949. Coal was usually what was used for heating before wwii. If the boiler is older than that it was probably fired with coal.
mattmia2
2
Re: Problem with short-cycling, low water, and leaks
Knowing what I know today, I would take every effort to get that boiler tuned into your system. I recently changed my system so it is firing at a similar rate to the radiation as yours about -3% pick up factor, and the system is the best it's ever been.
I completely disagree with those saying change it, waste of money and time from where I'm sitting. The issues you are having have nothing to do with sizing, nothing at all. Losing water is a leak. To give perspective 99 gallons should be 10-15 years of water usage, and you say you have underground returns? That is the place to start with water usage. If they need replaced, I would not put them underground again unless there are zero other options, for me it's always been a dumb idea.
For reference to lose that much water through venting only, a Gorton #2 main vent would have to be venting steam continuously for ~340 hours to release 99 gallons of water. You wouldn't have to look around to find that, the walls dripping would tell the story. Also, since you say the steam isn't reaching the radiator vents, they can't be losing steam by definition.
After you make sure it's not surging and you aren't losing water, then you can tackle venting and balance. Start with main venting, then move to radiator venting, if necessary.
I agree with above about looking at upgrading that header and possibly separating the mains, it looks like they are tee'd together and while it's controversial around here, I believe it's better to have them fed off the header individually for balance reasons.
I completely disagree with those saying change it, waste of money and time from where I'm sitting. The issues you are having have nothing to do with sizing, nothing at all. Losing water is a leak. To give perspective 99 gallons should be 10-15 years of water usage, and you say you have underground returns? That is the place to start with water usage. If they need replaced, I would not put them underground again unless there are zero other options, for me it's always been a dumb idea.
For reference to lose that much water through venting only, a Gorton #2 main vent would have to be venting steam continuously for ~340 hours to release 99 gallons of water. You wouldn't have to look around to find that, the walls dripping would tell the story. Also, since you say the steam isn't reaching the radiator vents, they can't be losing steam by definition.
After you make sure it's not surging and you aren't losing water, then you can tackle venting and balance. Start with main venting, then move to radiator venting, if necessary.
I agree with above about looking at upgrading that header and possibly separating the mains, it looks like they are tee'd together and while it's controversial around here, I believe it's better to have them fed off the header individually for balance reasons.
KC_Jones
5
Re: still unclear on appliance draft classification (test in 2 weeks)
Any thermosyphon direct vent fireplace does not have means for draft control. On vertical applications, an orifice plate may need to be installed to restrict the flow so high velocity gases do not disturb the secondary air feeding a standing or intermittent pilot.
A barometric damper is the classic draft control
On very large boilers, there are complex systems that measure stack gases, draft, etc. and meter the intake air (O2 trim). However, as with most large boilers, they use dampers, which are flow controls- not pressure controls.
On CAT IV condensing gas appliances, the intake air may exceed the requirements, resulting in lower efficiency. In such cases, a metering valve may have to be installed immediately upstream of the appliance balanced using combustion analysis. However, again this is a flow control as the unit is exhausting via a power venter. In the sense a power venter can modulate with the firing rate with some units, yes, it could be considered a 'draft control' albeit positive vent pressure. Natural draft is a negative pressure differential With Respect To the Combustion Appliance Zone. Technically, the lighter density of stack gases are forced up the chimney by the denser, cooler CAZ air but the stack pressure remains negative.
Gimmicks like the Thermiser affect the stack velocity by creating a buffer tank, which slows the gases exiting the combustion chamber resulting in a longer residence time (time, temp., turbulence). Then, the orifice plate (vena contracta) causes the effluent velocity to rapidly increase resulting in a quick evacuation of the secondary chamber. The problem with orifice plates is eddies immediately downstream. This creates a higher static pressure, which can negate the positive effect of higher exit velocity. ASHRAE calls for an optimum natural draft velocity of about 0.8 meters per second.
Regarding changing flue diameter as a means of control, consider your blood vessels. When you get scared, epinephrine (Adrenalin) and norepinephrine cause the smooth muscle of the vessels to constrict. This results in a flow restriction to the affected area while the back pressure between the area of peripheral vasoconstriction and the heart sees a rise in blood pressure. This is due both to the backpressure and to an increase in heart rate, force and automaticity by the catecholamines. If your feet get cold, put out the cigarette and put on a hat. As the blood in your head warms, the catecholamines with be stopped allowing vasodilation. Your skin warms and gets red again while the peripheral perfusion pressure drops. We don't have vents and chimneys that can modulate like the smooth muscle of arteries, arterioles and capillaries. If we did, THAT could be considered both a 'draft' and 'flow' control.
A barometric damper is the classic draft control
On very large boilers, there are complex systems that measure stack gases, draft, etc. and meter the intake air (O2 trim). However, as with most large boilers, they use dampers, which are flow controls- not pressure controls.
On CAT IV condensing gas appliances, the intake air may exceed the requirements, resulting in lower efficiency. In such cases, a metering valve may have to be installed immediately upstream of the appliance balanced using combustion analysis. However, again this is a flow control as the unit is exhausting via a power venter. In the sense a power venter can modulate with the firing rate with some units, yes, it could be considered a 'draft control' albeit positive vent pressure. Natural draft is a negative pressure differential With Respect To the Combustion Appliance Zone. Technically, the lighter density of stack gases are forced up the chimney by the denser, cooler CAZ air but the stack pressure remains negative.
Gimmicks like the Thermiser affect the stack velocity by creating a buffer tank, which slows the gases exiting the combustion chamber resulting in a longer residence time (time, temp., turbulence). Then, the orifice plate (vena contracta) causes the effluent velocity to rapidly increase resulting in a quick evacuation of the secondary chamber. The problem with orifice plates is eddies immediately downstream. This creates a higher static pressure, which can negate the positive effect of higher exit velocity. ASHRAE calls for an optimum natural draft velocity of about 0.8 meters per second.
Regarding changing flue diameter as a means of control, consider your blood vessels. When you get scared, epinephrine (Adrenalin) and norepinephrine cause the smooth muscle of the vessels to constrict. This results in a flow restriction to the affected area while the back pressure between the area of peripheral vasoconstriction and the heart sees a rise in blood pressure. This is due both to the backpressure and to an increase in heart rate, force and automaticity by the catecholamines. If your feet get cold, put out the cigarette and put on a hat. As the blood in your head warms, the catecholamines with be stopped allowing vasodilation. Your skin warms and gets red again while the peripheral perfusion pressure drops. We don't have vents and chimneys that can modulate like the smooth muscle of arteries, arterioles and capillaries. If we did, THAT could be considered both a 'draft' and 'flow' control.
Re: Problem with short-cycling, low water, and leaks
That picture shows two returns tied together above the boiler waterline. Returns have to be tied together BELOW the water line. The old boiler was much larger and probably had a higher waterline.
Drop that line down so it's well under the waterline and them do a few skimming's to get rid of any water contamination and see if that calms things down.
Bob
Drop that line down so it's well under the waterline and them do a few skimming's to get rid of any water contamination and see if that calms things down.
Bob
BobC
3
Re: Heat Pump Minimum Ambient To Protect Compressor
The compressor really doesn’t care what temperature it is. It does care that the oil is warm. Make sure the crankcase heater is operating. How much heat you’ll get below 30 depends on the equipment.
pecmsg
2
Re: is a power draft-assisted burner considered a "appliance with a draft control device"?
To 'control' draft, you must be able to regulate it up or down. Draft is a pressure differential- not flow. I always use the term 'draft pressure' to differentiate it from mass flow. A blower causes mass flow. On an inducer, the net effect is a negative pressure in the combustion chamber to make room for the expanding byproducts of combustion and excess air while drawing in combustion air. Once heat creates natural draft, its role is negligible but it does not 'control' the draft. Likewise, a draft hood allows dilution air, which inhibits draft pressure but it does not 'control' it. It kills the draft at standby, at low fire or high fire but at a relatively fixed rate. The only variable is how much air gets entrained through the fixed orifice of the net free area of the hood by the Bernoulli Effect, which shoots the flue gases up the stack where draft pressure carries them to the atmosphere--unless there is a negative pressure differential in the CAZ, in which case the hood can provide a pathway for spillage or backdrafting.
You have natural draft or gravity venting or atmospheric venting, then you have induced draft as with 80% furnaces then forced draft with power venters.
You have natural draft or gravity venting or atmospheric venting, then you have induced draft as with 80% furnaces then forced draft with power venters.