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Re: Things to know about O2 ingress, corrosion, scale build up in hydronics
@GroundUpBut was it BECAUSE of the non-barrier pex? Or was the water quality crap before that already? Did they stir up some yuck from the existing system and push it out to the garage when it was added? I'm certainly not doubting you, I'm just saying I've worked on dozens of non-barrier pex systems, many of which 20+ years old, and never has there been any evidence of the tubing itself causing any corrosion issues. A couple here and there where there were obvious leaks and makeup water, a couple where they put in used automotive antifreeze, etc which had some definite corrosion issues but the vast majority are clean as a whistle inside, just like the barrier systems usually are. Frankly, I see more corrosion in barrier systems than non-barrier but that's obviously due to sheer volume. I ran a section of my own piping at home in non-barrier just for an experiment about 12 years ago and it's still spotless- even being 170 degrees.
I've worked on a system which was non barrier pex. Water was rust colored and every ferrous component has an orange rust layer in it. This system was a DIY feeding radiant to a new garage. Ironically the garage slab was done with barrier tube. Just the underground between buildings was non barrier. Mixing was done in the house so UG tubing was run at radiant slab temps. System was 3 years old. I was there to advise why circulators kept failing......
I told him to dig up the UG and replace it with barrier pex, flush the entire system, run a cleaner for a few days with all circulators running. Flush 2x, and then fill with good water.
GroundUp
1
Re: Making the proper connection
You can add a tee on that port, just make sure the probe on the relief valve reaches down into the tank a bit. Is it a metric thread however. that will complicate things.
You can but T&P valves with probes up to 12" I believe.
Are the recirculation lines insulated? If not they are a hydronic loop so the boiler will run more often to keep that loop hot.
You may want a timer or demand type control.
Controls can be from mild to wild. On/ off switch, thermostat, timer, motion sensor, switch built into bathroom door. Smart recirc pump that attempts to learn your usage pattern, or any combination of these.
You can but T&P valves with probes up to 12" I believe.
Are the recirculation lines insulated? If not they are a hydronic loop so the boiler will run more often to keep that loop hot.
You may want a timer or demand type control.
Controls can be from mild to wild. On/ off switch, thermostat, timer, motion sensor, switch built into bathroom door. Smart recirc pump that attempts to learn your usage pattern, or any combination of these.
hot_rod
1
Re: Prestige Trimax Upgrade
The offleaching of Chorides from the PVC which is a understud subject in Europe is the only reason they parted ways...Using PVC in Europe is Ilegal and will result in a condement of the system by the Chimney sweep.That's nice they tried to explain it, but at the time Lochinvar had taken off in the states using the same firetube heat exchanger, the original manufacturer had cut a better deal with them which is how Triangle got shifted to another manufacturer. Lochinvar were also allowing PVC vents, so I'm not sure how much stock I would place in that particular explanationThere were 2 heat exchanger manufacturers involved, Triangle Tube does not make heat exchangers, same as nearly all popular brands of boilers, they buy them. Somehow the heat exchanger manufacturing was shifted to another company, not by triangle, but by the hxc manufacturer, some kind of family argument thing. anyway that company lied about their ability to weld stainless steel. We ended up with about 1 year of hxc that had poorly welded top studs. That company still makes heat exchangers for basically all the popular firetube boilers on the market, almost nobody makes their own heat exchanger. Those 6-8 months of poor manufacturing caused Triangle Tube to end up selling their business to Ideal, so I think they have paid the price for the error of trusting their vendor.
Discussions with the original full stainless steel Heatexchanger manufacturer at the ISH revealed that they disaproved subjecting the Heatexchanger to PVC exhaust pipe techniques such as we allow in the USA..Therefor and due to liability they would no longer supply Triangle Tube with Heatexchangers !
The change in engineering of the new 'US Version" of this HX was that the Bottom of the HX was made of a PVC and a Gasket which would be able to withstand the Chorides and was mostlikely less money to manufacture...
As many of us can testify the old Full Stainless Steel Original HX was bombproof and we service many of them that are approching the 15year mark.
Things to know about O2 ingress, corrosion, scale build up in hydronics
The history as I remember it.
Back in the 1980s the availability of inexpensive, flexible plastic tubing made radiant fashionable again. Prior system were copper, bent or welded steel tube systems.
Early tube for radiant was polybutylene, RadiantRoll, and some pp well pipe systems were sold. Pex came later and non barrier was promoted. Finally barrier tube became more mainstay.
The promotors of the tube without any O2 barrier were convinced low temperature radiant would not have serious O2 ingress issues. Regardless of the Euro hydronic industry already having been down that O2 road, and sounding the warning about what we as an industry were about to experience
About 1992 or 1994 Heatway, the major producer of rubber tube, getting a lot of heat (pun intended) about sludge forming allegedly due to non barrier tube, decided to put out a position paper as well as partner with Fernox to bring in conditioners, cleaners, sealer and glycol.
The scale build up section shows how little of a layer of hard minerals can change the heat transfer. Efficiency goes down and the the boiler "skin temperature" increases. This is one cause of failures in thin metal boilers common today.
The information and opinions in this paper are just as relevant today.
Keep the O2 out as best as possible. Know that the DIN standard limits the amount of O2 per day that is acceptable.
Do not fill with hard water, the very first fill with hard water can cause heat exchange compromises.
Also points about the various types of corrosion and typical causes.
Sorry about the quality of the scan, my original is not so crisp. This paper appeared in the large technical binders that Heatway produced over the years.
Back in the 1980s the availability of inexpensive, flexible plastic tubing made radiant fashionable again. Prior system were copper, bent or welded steel tube systems.
Early tube for radiant was polybutylene, RadiantRoll, and some pp well pipe systems were sold. Pex came later and non barrier was promoted. Finally barrier tube became more mainstay.
The promotors of the tube without any O2 barrier were convinced low temperature radiant would not have serious O2 ingress issues. Regardless of the Euro hydronic industry already having been down that O2 road, and sounding the warning about what we as an industry were about to experience
About 1992 or 1994 Heatway, the major producer of rubber tube, getting a lot of heat (pun intended) about sludge forming allegedly due to non barrier tube, decided to put out a position paper as well as partner with Fernox to bring in conditioners, cleaners, sealer and glycol.
The scale build up section shows how little of a layer of hard minerals can change the heat transfer. Efficiency goes down and the the boiler "skin temperature" increases. This is one cause of failures in thin metal boilers common today.
The information and opinions in this paper are just as relevant today.
Keep the O2 out as best as possible. Know that the DIN standard limits the amount of O2 per day that is acceptable.
Do not fill with hard water, the very first fill with hard water can cause heat exchange compromises.
Also points about the various types of corrosion and typical causes.
Sorry about the quality of the scan, my original is not so crisp. This paper appeared in the large technical binders that Heatway produced over the years.
hot_rod
5
Re: Lamp wick and dope
So....
In my opinion the absolute best pipe dope is this
But
It doesn't come off your hands or clothes..... So if I want something easy to work with I use Megaloc.
All of the recent compressed air (130 psi) connections i made and hydraulic connections (10,000 psi) were all done with the loctite 5117.
No leaks, even at 10,000 psi using normal npt connections and that was dope alone.
I use ptfe tape first followed by dope on questionable threads.
Also not 100% sure it's ok for potable water. Never looked but would check before using it for such.
In my opinion the absolute best pipe dope is this
But
It doesn't come off your hands or clothes..... So if I want something easy to work with I use Megaloc.
All of the recent compressed air (130 psi) connections i made and hydraulic connections (10,000 psi) were all done with the loctite 5117.
No leaks, even at 10,000 psi using normal npt connections and that was dope alone.
I use ptfe tape first followed by dope on questionable threads.
Also not 100% sure it's ok for potable water. Never looked but would check before using it for such.
ChrisJ
3
Re: Oil tank failure due to overfilling and overpressure
I had a case where a fuel tank split while I was delivering fuel. The vent alarm was whistling, I could hear it. The problem was that the vent was clogged to the point that the 80 GPM delivery volume was building up air pressure in the tank. The tank was old and it split at a seem as a result of the pressure. This was an automatic delivery customer that happened to be home that day. When I realized the delivery was taking too long, I closed the nozzle on the delivery hose and returned to the truck to see that I had delivered 287 gallons to a 275 gallon tank. The vent alarm was still whistling from the back pressure in the tank.
I knocked on the door and asked the customer if I could check the tank. I didn't need to look at the tank because is saw oil on the basement floor as soon as I opened the basement door. (PM me if you want to hear the rest of the story)
You don't need Hydraulic pressure to split a tank.There was still compressed air in the tank when it split. All you need is a blocked vent. You might want to look at the vent pipe to see if there is a blockage. The smallest amount of air can whistle the vent alarm. That little amount of air is not enough to vent the tank.
By the way, no oil ever came out the vent pipe during this delivery.
You may also want to look closely at the vent alarm itself If the whistle found its way past the pin that keeps it in place, then that vent alarm whistle could actually clog the vent pipe.
If the retainer pin broke off, the whistle can get logged in the actual vent pipe and then the pipe is restricted to the diameter of the whistle hole (about 1/4" Diameter)
I knocked on the door and asked the customer if I could check the tank. I didn't need to look at the tank because is saw oil on the basement floor as soon as I opened the basement door. (PM me if you want to hear the rest of the story)
You don't need Hydraulic pressure to split a tank.There was still compressed air in the tank when it split. All you need is a blocked vent. You might want to look at the vent pipe to see if there is a blockage. The smallest amount of air can whistle the vent alarm. That little amount of air is not enough to vent the tank.
By the way, no oil ever came out the vent pipe during this delivery.
You may also want to look closely at the vent alarm itself If the whistle found its way past the pin that keeps it in place, then that vent alarm whistle could actually clog the vent pipe.
If the retainer pin broke off, the whistle can get logged in the actual vent pipe and then the pipe is restricted to the diameter of the whistle hole (about 1/4" Diameter)
Boiler Babysitter
Sysyem is a Navin 110 supplying two fin tube upstairs zones and one radiant basement zone in slab. Infloor utilizing mixing valve and boiler is using factory outdoor curve settings.
Added Emerson E2 CX100 controller as a boiler monitor. It monitors space temp, outdoor air and boiler supply return water temps.
For your consideration the most recent graphs from this years startup. Overnight temps have been warm, boiler running under low load contions. Purple line is the return water temp and green is supply. You can see an excellent delta T when the infloor runs, but when its only 1 upstairs zone the return temps are higher. You can also see the boiler cycles and off cycles.What other information can I find with this data as it pertains to boiler performance?
W
Added Emerson E2 CX100 controller as a boiler monitor. It monitors space temp, outdoor air and boiler supply return water temps.
For your consideration the most recent graphs from this years startup. Overnight temps have been warm, boiler running under low load contions. Purple line is the return water temp and green is supply. You can see an excellent delta T when the infloor runs, but when its only 1 upstairs zone the return temps are higher. You can also see the boiler cycles and off cycles.What other information can I find with this data as it pertains to boiler performance?
W
Re: Oil tank failure due to overfilling and overpressure
LOL. An elderly lady at our church recently had a major oil spill remediation project at her house. One day the oil delivery guy smelled oil and investigated. It turned out that the fill pipe went under some decking before it entered the foundation into the basement tank, and the fill pipe had rusted out over a period of years.Interesting...in that case, who ended up paying for the cleanup?I'm sure that was taken care of by the oil company insurance company. This happened in the 1970's before all the EPA guidelines were in place for underground tanks, and oil spill were not considered a hazard as they are today. I do know that the customer switched to gas heat soon after that.
Here in MA, the Dept of Environmental Protection (DEP) required her to demolish her adjacent garage and dig out the contaminated soil. The garage was demo'd and a large hole dug beside her house foundation. The cleanup crew cut a large access hole in the house foundation, and had to excavate a large portion of her basement below slab level to a depth of 6 feet. Just the digging and soil testing took months. The friend who helped her manage the process with the oil company, the DEP, and the contractors told me when it was all over, the total cost was in the neighborhood of $500k. Fortunately the oil company's insurance took care of most or all of it.
In the OP's case, hopefully there isn't all that contaminated soil to remove, so I'm not suggesting it's a similar situation. But it is an extreme illustration of how bad these events can be.
jesmed1
2
Re: Oil tank failure due to overfilling and overpressure
I would like to express my gratitude to everyone for their input. This is a subject to which I had no prior knowledge whatsoever. I am not in the business and have no relation to it other than as a customer. This has been an extremely stressful and difficult time and it’s even affecting our health. I have been trying to get a proper understanding of the issue and all your inputs are extremely helpful and important to me.
STEVEusaPA, thank you for your insurance input…it certainly was my assumption that my homeowners policy provided coverage, but I was informed otherwise and reading the policy exclusions seems to confirm no coverage. I was also informed that in NYS, insurance companies use a standard State Provided template as starting point for their policies which then need be approved by the state regulatory agency at that this exclusion is in the template that all insurances base the policies on. I was also informed that riders for such coverage were seldom available. I don’t know if this was NY State specific and I also do not know if this was all said to appease my utter disbelief that I had no such coverage. I will certainly investigate further thanks to your input and I will endeavor to read my policy much more carefully. I will admit to the foolhardy belief that because the policy was from a premium carrier it must be excellent coverage.
As to the circumstances, let me add: On Friday of that same weekend, we were in the boiler room to change a water alarm battery and there was no evidence of any oil on the tank nor any tell tale oil smell nor has there ever been for the ten years since the tank was installed. Three days later upon return and coincident to the oil delivery, the tank was “dripping with oil” from around the tank fill line area, but there was no discernible oil noted around the vent line outside…
STEVEusaPA, thank you for your insurance input…it certainly was my assumption that my homeowners policy provided coverage, but I was informed otherwise and reading the policy exclusions seems to confirm no coverage. I was also informed that in NYS, insurance companies use a standard State Provided template as starting point for their policies which then need be approved by the state regulatory agency at that this exclusion is in the template that all insurances base the policies on. I was also informed that riders for such coverage were seldom available. I don’t know if this was NY State specific and I also do not know if this was all said to appease my utter disbelief that I had no such coverage. I will certainly investigate further thanks to your input and I will endeavor to read my policy much more carefully. I will admit to the foolhardy belief that because the policy was from a premium carrier it must be excellent coverage.
As to the circumstances, let me add: On Friday of that same weekend, we were in the boiler room to change a water alarm battery and there was no evidence of any oil on the tank nor any tell tale oil smell nor has there ever been for the ten years since the tank was installed. Three days later upon return and coincident to the oil delivery, the tank was “dripping with oil” from around the tank fill line area, but there was no discernible oil noted around the vent line outside…
LISteve
2
Point of use Rheem to replace oil boiler for indirect tank domestic water only?
Is it possible to use point of use .6 GPM tankless on a closed loop combine with HTP 50 gal indirect tank to get hot water for domestic showers and kitchen.
I have 90k btu a burnham boiler that is on last leg though we just replaced indirect tank 1 year before so it’s fairly new. HTP 50 gal. For heat we have 72k btu air sourced heat pump upgrade upcoming. Trying to determine what would be least expensive method to replace oil boiler completely to get hot water. I fall in zone 5 New York State WestChester county.
So is it possible to add Rheem 3.5 kw tankless and route a closed loop water line via tankless that circulates and heat the coil inside HTP tank and HTP aquastat can direct tankless to stay on till tank comes to required temperatures?
I have solar so electric is a better option for me.
Please do let me know is this a good idea or any better suggestions?
I have 90k btu a burnham boiler that is on last leg though we just replaced indirect tank 1 year before so it’s fairly new. HTP 50 gal. For heat we have 72k btu air sourced heat pump upgrade upcoming. Trying to determine what would be least expensive method to replace oil boiler completely to get hot water. I fall in zone 5 New York State WestChester county.
So is it possible to add Rheem 3.5 kw tankless and route a closed loop water line via tankless that circulates and heat the coil inside HTP tank and HTP aquastat can direct tankless to stay on till tank comes to required temperatures?
I have solar so electric is a better option for me.
Please do let me know is this a good idea or any better suggestions?
Abi
1