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Low propane and high efficiency Polaris
I have a 1000 lb propane tank that went below the recommended 200lbs minimum during below freezing temperatures a couple months ago. They delivered Some propane to bring it up to 300lbs. During very erratic temperatures of back and forth below freezing to 50+ degrees, my Polaris direct vent high efficiency water tank would stop heating, showing 3 flashes. (Igniter). I would unplug, wait, plug in, and it would go again. I had to do this twice within a month. When the propane went down to 200 lbs they came and filled to 400lbs. Temperatures have been more steady lately and above freezing but I have had to do the unplug and back on trick several times with the Polaris since this last propane addition. Now my trick won’t work and the water isn’t heating. I don’t think it’s the ignition as that and fan was replaced new year before. I’m wondering if it’s possible I’ve lost pressure from the propane tank when it dropped below 200lbs.? I am rural and a house call is over $500 before looking to service. I am seeking opinions in hopes of avoiding a costly service call and thank you in advance.
dd2
1
Re: Banging -New Boiler
Did whoever installed ti skim it to get rid of the oil from the new boiler and piping? It would need to be skimmed when it was first installed and another time to couple of times a week or so after it is installed.
You can see the oil floating on the water in the sight glass.
You can see the oil floating on the water in the sight glass.
mattmia2
2
Re: Modcon vs CI Gas Usage - Baseboard Heat
Some additional thoughts. I'd guess not many CI boilers ever run at the rated efficiencies. Certainly not zoned ones as the Cycle Efficiency is the determining factor. IF, and most are, the boiler is oversized then cycle efficiency goes down even more. We have done examples here where actual efficiency drops into the low 70% on zoned, oversized CI on fin tube systems.
Some suggestions, upgrade the envelop first. Even a weatherstrip upgrade can make a difference, as infiltration can rob a lot of your fuel $$
Next do a room by room heat load calc, followed by a fin tube assessment. How low of a SWT can you actually run will now become clear.
Next look up some 20 year weather data. How often are you at design, or below in your area? Probably 80% of the heating system you are below design. So 80% of the time the CI boiler, properly sized is oversized and cycle efficiency starts to chip away at the operating cost. Even on a single zone system!
The higher the temperature required at the fin tube the more loss through the wall to the outdoors. Fin running at 140 loses less through the wall build up, than a 180F system. A simple delta T formula.
So a mod con, properly sized, installed and set up, addresses all the efficiency robbing concerns.
It may modulate down to the lowest zone load. ODR keeps the SWT matching the heat load fairly accurately. Ramp delay, anti short cycling can be used if it is a micro-zoned system where small loads fall below the lowest turn down. These all come into play even if it never condenses!
Below is BIN data is for upstate NY, but I suspect the trends would be similar for L.I, as far as % of design. I believe 0 or 5 above is design in this upstate area.
If you can get SWT down around 150 or lower, design day, the mod cons will really sing fig 3-6. Mod con efficiency goes up as they run at low turn down, fig 3-31. Widen the operating delta to 30° to lower the return even more. It's the return to the boiler that dictates the condensing operation.
Also a slide from Viessmann training regarding reducing SWT and ODR usage. With a CI boiler you are limited on how aggressively you can set the ODR and protect the boiler from extended cold run time.
That leaves the question of maintenance cost, life expectancy. That will be debated till the end of time.
I started a file of mod con cleaning from IG, with poster permission. I've seen boilers that hadn't been serviced in 8 years looking very clean when opened. And boilers opened after one year 1/4 full of mouse turd deposits.
I feel intake air filter and proper burner set up the first year and a check after a year has a lot to do with the combustion side condition.
So it comes down to number crunching first, or talking with folks that have made the mod con transition on CI fin tube systems in your area, for some case study data
Some suggestions, upgrade the envelop first. Even a weatherstrip upgrade can make a difference, as infiltration can rob a lot of your fuel $$
Next do a room by room heat load calc, followed by a fin tube assessment. How low of a SWT can you actually run will now become clear.
Next look up some 20 year weather data. How often are you at design, or below in your area? Probably 80% of the heating system you are below design. So 80% of the time the CI boiler, properly sized is oversized and cycle efficiency starts to chip away at the operating cost. Even on a single zone system!
The higher the temperature required at the fin tube the more loss through the wall to the outdoors. Fin running at 140 loses less through the wall build up, than a 180F system. A simple delta T formula.
So a mod con, properly sized, installed and set up, addresses all the efficiency robbing concerns.
It may modulate down to the lowest zone load. ODR keeps the SWT matching the heat load fairly accurately. Ramp delay, anti short cycling can be used if it is a micro-zoned system where small loads fall below the lowest turn down. These all come into play even if it never condenses!
Below is BIN data is for upstate NY, but I suspect the trends would be similar for L.I, as far as % of design. I believe 0 or 5 above is design in this upstate area.
If you can get SWT down around 150 or lower, design day, the mod cons will really sing fig 3-6. Mod con efficiency goes up as they run at low turn down, fig 3-31. Widen the operating delta to 30° to lower the return even more. It's the return to the boiler that dictates the condensing operation.
Also a slide from Viessmann training regarding reducing SWT and ODR usage. With a CI boiler you are limited on how aggressively you can set the ODR and protect the boiler from extended cold run time.
That leaves the question of maintenance cost, life expectancy. That will be debated till the end of time.
I started a file of mod con cleaning from IG, with poster permission. I've seen boilers that hadn't been serviced in 8 years looking very clean when opened. And boilers opened after one year 1/4 full of mouse turd deposits.
I feel intake air filter and proper burner set up the first year and a check after a year has a lot to do with the combustion side condition.
So it comes down to number crunching first, or talking with folks that have made the mod con transition on CI fin tube systems in your area, for some case study data
hot_rod
5
Re: Which is better heat pump or a hybrid heat pump
Enjoying the commentary.
What I'm hoping to see is a 2kW (gas/propane) hybrid engine driven heat pump with thermal friction/exhaust recovery. Preferably water jacketed for recovery and noise reduction. That would provide about 6800btu plus addition of COP moved heat of a heat pump, without the need of high grid supplied power, rather for starting and controls. Conceivably, heat and power could be supplied. CHP.
I've also wondered why solar gain isn't leveraged also on the heat pump side.
I'm just surprised there's not a minisplit conversion kit on amazon by now.
What I'm hoping to see is a 2kW (gas/propane) hybrid engine driven heat pump with thermal friction/exhaust recovery. Preferably water jacketed for recovery and noise reduction. That would provide about 6800btu plus addition of COP moved heat of a heat pump, without the need of high grid supplied power, rather for starting and controls. Conceivably, heat and power could be supplied. CHP.
I've also wondered why solar gain isn't leveraged also on the heat pump side.
I'm just surprised there's not a minisplit conversion kit on amazon by now.
farmwi
1
Re: Which is better heat pump or a hybrid heat pump
Too many variables. Which might be better in any given application depends, among a host of other things, on what the client's objective in choosing a heat pump (hybrid or straight) is in the first place, electricty or other fuel costs in the area, climate in the area, client's tolerance to no heat/low heat situations, etc.
Even the first one -- objective -- is murky, as the preferred choice should take into account whether the objective is visible green, actual green (which is very different in most of the country), compliance with a mandate (which is no choice at all actually), or just being comfortable at a reasonable price.
Even the first one -- objective -- is murky, as the preferred choice should take into account whether the objective is visible green, actual green (which is very different in most of the country), compliance with a mandate (which is no choice at all actually), or just being comfortable at a reasonable price.
Re: Which is better heat pump or a hybrid heat pump
Heat transfere from a heat pump is the refrigerant, a properly sized system with wall mount indoor heads using a quality cold climate product will work fine in most all cases. When we install heat pump ducted systems the dynamic changes, the heat transfere is no longer coming off the coil directly heating the space, it now has to over come velocity loss and heat loss from the ductwork in an unconditioned attic, basement, or crawlspace. A good percentage of homeowners don't want to see a head on the wall, and may even have existing ductwork.
In this instance I would always consider a hybrid option. You may get 10 plus months out of the year the gas valve doest turn on, but the guarantee is there you will make set point no matter what.
If you live a place like northern VT with a -20 design temperature you should have redundancy, wood stove or pellets with heat pump only.
In this instance I would always consider a hybrid option. You may get 10 plus months out of the year the gas valve doest turn on, but the guarantee is there you will make set point no matter what.
If you live a place like northern VT with a -20 design temperature you should have redundancy, wood stove or pellets with heat pump only.
Re: Modcon vs CI Gas Usage - Baseboard Heat
Well...your numbers are right there. The absolute maximum you could save would be the 11 % or so. That will assume that the mod/con is condensing all the time (which it won't be) and that both boilers are otherwise set up and operated optimally.
The modulation does make a difference -- but mostly so that the boiler can condense more of the time. Again, assuming that the mod/con is making use of all its features (particularly outdoor reset) and you don't do strange things with the thermostats. It will help some in reaching towards that 11 % -- but you won't get over that.
The modulation does make a difference -- but mostly so that the boiler can condense more of the time. Again, assuming that the mod/con is making use of all its features (particularly outdoor reset) and you don't do strange things with the thermostats. It will help some in reaching towards that 11 % -- but you won't get over that.
Re: Radiator making loud water hamming noise and water sloshing sound
Now you’re on it! Find that pipe below floor. Radiator takeoff tee should be on a 45 slant. Allows condensate to hug the pipe wall. Drips become Missile hammers. Follow the pipe. Near the end it may have an end of main vent. If plugged radiator is trying to vent branch. Watch the level of the main. It must pitch. Watch for sags. Mentally be the condensate. How does get home. Steam rides top of pipe, condensate runs like a river in the bottom.
Just an idea.
Re: Low water cut off malfuntions
What are other possibilities for the crack? Can the probe low water cut offs misread if sludge is present?
tonylap
1
Re: Radiator making loud water hamming noise and water sloshing sound
The valve could be your problem.
@Gordo has a U tube video about the pitfalls of a straight globe valve on a radiator that you might want to peak at on U tube. Some designs don't allow the water to drain. You could remove the valve and hook it up without the valve and see how it works.
@Gordo has a U tube video about the pitfalls of a straight globe valve on a radiator that you might want to peak at on U tube. Some designs don't allow the water to drain. You could remove the valve and hook it up without the valve and see how it works.
