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Re: Smart Thermostats and Single Pipe Steam Systems
We just wrapped up our 3rd season on the Ecobee. It plays just fine with our single pipe, counterflow system. Very rarely overshoots and I'd say it performs just as well as any programmable thermostat at the box-store.
Steam works best when set at a set temperature. Set-backs tend to cause overshoots and no modern thermostat handles the larger thermal mass of a steam system well. I've played around with set-backs of various settings and I keep going back to "set it and forget it". A Smart thermostat will fail at deep setbacks just as poorly as any programmable one.
It needs to have constant power and needs to be tapped into the transformer or have its own dedicated transformer. There are a variety of ways to do this on the internet and any HVAC person should be able to help you out if you get stuck.
Where the Ecobee really shines (sorry...can't comment on the Nest) is that it monitors the outside temperature. If it is 55 degrees outside it knows it doesn't need to kick the system on early to maintain the set temp. Same goes with if it is zero outside... it is a bit more proactive and tries to stay ahead of the temperature loss. It is like a poor-mans outdoor reset.
Another feature that I like is that I can add temperature/humidity sensors in as many rooms as I want and the thermostat will display the "average house temp". I feel like this makes the whole house a bit more comfortable.
It will also use a "heat index" if I tell it too. So if the house is humid it will hold off on the heat a bit because the house "feels" like it is at the set temp.
The ability for me to monitor the house and individual room temps from an app or on their website is a novelty but I like it. Personal preference.
Steam works best when set at a set temperature. Set-backs tend to cause overshoots and no modern thermostat handles the larger thermal mass of a steam system well. I've played around with set-backs of various settings and I keep going back to "set it and forget it". A Smart thermostat will fail at deep setbacks just as poorly as any programmable one.
It needs to have constant power and needs to be tapped into the transformer or have its own dedicated transformer. There are a variety of ways to do this on the internet and any HVAC person should be able to help you out if you get stuck.
Where the Ecobee really shines (sorry...can't comment on the Nest) is that it monitors the outside temperature. If it is 55 degrees outside it knows it doesn't need to kick the system on early to maintain the set temp. Same goes with if it is zero outside... it is a bit more proactive and tries to stay ahead of the temperature loss. It is like a poor-mans outdoor reset.
Another feature that I like is that I can add temperature/humidity sensors in as many rooms as I want and the thermostat will display the "average house temp". I feel like this makes the whole house a bit more comfortable.
It will also use a "heat index" if I tell it too. So if the house is humid it will hold off on the heat a bit because the house "feels" like it is at the set temp.
The ability for me to monitor the house and individual room temps from an app or on their website is a novelty but I like it. Personal preference.
Re: Why no T&P on boilers?
In short: the pressures are different. the appliance that operates at the higher pressure needs more protection.
LONG WINDED ANSWER (of which i'm known for)
DHW heaters operate at higher pressures than space heating boilers. DHW are open systems. Space heating systems are closed systems. There are different things happening inside the two different appliances. High Temperature at high pressure on an open system subject to water hammer from say an open tap then closing the tap abruptly may be in an explosive condition if the tank was at 80 PSI. (125 PSI is a standard pressure for DHW relief valves).
Since a closed system has a much lower pressure relief specification, the water temperature in the closed system will not be as explosive. it is releasing at a lower pressure and then the valve will re-engage in order to prevent say 225° or higher water temperature inside the closed system reaching the lower atmospheric pressure that would cause the instant superheating of the higher temperature water at the lower pressure.
Temperature relief valves are for the most part a one and done event valve. While pressure relief valves are multiple event capable. There is a reason for the design on the closed system and another reason for the design on the open system Great Video BTW @ChrisJ. Like I'm back in training in the 1960s watching a 16 MM film with the rapid click, click, clicking of the projector.
Mr. Ed.
PS. Here is a film I also remember for the mechanic that need to learn how basic hand tools should be used
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKM4qBESzrA
LONG WINDED ANSWER (of which i'm known for)
DHW heaters operate at higher pressures than space heating boilers. DHW are open systems. Space heating systems are closed systems. There are different things happening inside the two different appliances. High Temperature at high pressure on an open system subject to water hammer from say an open tap then closing the tap abruptly may be in an explosive condition if the tank was at 80 PSI. (125 PSI is a standard pressure for DHW relief valves).
Since a closed system has a much lower pressure relief specification, the water temperature in the closed system will not be as explosive. it is releasing at a lower pressure and then the valve will re-engage in order to prevent say 225° or higher water temperature inside the closed system reaching the lower atmospheric pressure that would cause the instant superheating of the higher temperature water at the lower pressure.
Temperature relief valves are for the most part a one and done event valve. While pressure relief valves are multiple event capable. There is a reason for the design on the closed system and another reason for the design on the open system Great Video BTW @ChrisJ. Like I'm back in training in the 1960s watching a 16 MM film with the rapid click, click, clicking of the projector.
Mr. Ed.
PS. Here is a film I also remember for the mechanic that need to learn how basic hand tools should be used
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKM4qBESzrA
Re: Why no T&P on boilers?
Hi, I can add that domestic water heaters live at substantially higher pressures than space heating boilers. As the Watts movie says at 50 psi, water boils at 298 F. The T&P functions by opening and letting enough cold water in to keep tank temperature under 212F, so the tank can’t explode. Probably very little of that is news to the people reading this.
At 15 psi, water must be 257F to boil, but boilers usually can take up to 50 psi, I’m guessing? So it seems in worst case that if the boiler is not shutting off, and there is no water feed, the boiler will expel all of its water and then glow red. Still, the problem of water doing a phase change, turning to steam and getting 1700 times bigger, nearly instantly doesn’t really exist in this case. So, the boiler will die an unhappy death, but not explode. Just a theory as to why only pressure relief is used 🤠
Yours, Larry
At 15 psi, water must be 257F to boil, but boilers usually can take up to 50 psi, I’m guessing? So it seems in worst case that if the boiler is not shutting off, and there is no water feed, the boiler will expel all of its water and then glow red. Still, the problem of water doing a phase change, turning to steam and getting 1700 times bigger, nearly instantly doesn’t really exist in this case. So, the boiler will die an unhappy death, but not explode. Just a theory as to why only pressure relief is used 🤠
Yours, Larry
Re: Why no T&P on boilers?
Protection from boiling... well,, a steam boiler is always boiling when it is running, at a temperature which is controlled by the pressure. A pressure relief valve on a steam boiler will open when the pressure reaches a safe maximum, and it should be capable, when continuously open, of keeping the p0ressuret tht level even if the burner doesn't shut off. On a not water boiler, you really don't want a valve to open on temperature, as the hot water inside may be at or very near to boiler -- but you do want a PRV to crack when, again, the pressure gets too high. You also want that valve to close promptly when the pressure drops -- which it will very quickly.
Why? Because if you remove the pressure quickly on a hot water boiler which is overtemp0eratured, the water inside will boil -- all together. This usually will result in an explosion... which you don't want. So you let the pressure off slowly with a PRV.
Why? Because if you remove the pressure quickly on a hot water boiler which is overtemp0eratured, the water inside will boil -- all together. This usually will result in an explosion... which you don't want. So you let the pressure off slowly with a PRV.
Re: Poor plumbing installation in an expensive bathroom 🚻
The new no-wax rings are mighty handy. Wax rings tend to fail if you move the toilet after putting it down (typically to get it centered/straight left to right).I have used these in my home because of this very reason--they seem to (my untrained self) to solve this issue and work well...
so therefore I assumed that actual plumbers must hate them. Is that the case, or do plumbers think they are good?
Re: Is it okay just to rinse your balls, or do you clean them with anything ? (condensate traps)
I ended up buying a whole bag of 1" polypropylene balls from plasticballsupply. It frustrated me when you had to buy the over priced trap to just get replacement ball. I now have a lifetime supply. 
about a buck each. These are great, exact size ball.
about a buck each. These are great, exact size ball. 
Re: Using Hot Spring Water for Radiant
Awesome....The closest I've seen to this was a Consult I did 20 years ago on the Mountain overlooking The Mighty Hudson River Northside of the Tappan Zee Bridge. Built in to the side of the mountain in early 1800s, it had a stream running through the basement and a Huge (For the property) old block wall fish tank. It was about 8 feet wide, 10 feet deep and 15 feet long. The cold spring water flowed right through it. It was built for your very own Fulton Street Fish Market 🐟. The guy was a Professional, well known Bluegrass musician and he had just picked the house up. I Gave him the NYS Fish Hatchery info and told him he could stock it with live trout and eat em. He was very excited. Hope he did....Mad Dog 🐕
Re: Poor plumbing installation in an expensive bathroom 🚻
The new no-wax rings are mighty handy. Wax rings tend to fail if you move the toilet after putting it down (typically to get it centered/straight left to right).
Re: Pex & Rodents
I haven't tried this myself but someone told me to get some Ivory liquid soap (the plain stuff if they still make it?) and dilute it in water and with a garden sprayer, coat all the PEX after installation. The soap sticks to the pipe, won't chemically damage the pipe and it's bitter so rodents won't chew it.
If I was going to do this, I probably would use the split insulation foam plumbing "noodles" first then spray the insulation foam with the soap.
If I was going to do this, I probably would use the split insulation foam plumbing "noodles" first then spray the insulation foam with the soap.
MaxMercy
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