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Re: Commercial water heating, storage tank vs indirect
$$$
indirect tanks with a coil inside more expensive to manufacture
indirect tanks with a coil inside more expensive to manufacture
hot_rod
2
Re: Energy Kinetics and Ecobee not getting up to temperature
Thank you for your post, @mad_hat , and for everyone’s replies.
Turn on SmartBoost per the link below.
Your manager controls the temperature, and you Hydrostat (DualGard) is only a safety, and should be set at 205/215, not 190 or any other temperature.
If the burner ever turns off, then the boiler has more capacity than your baseboard can emit; look for this.
If the burner ever turns off, then the boiler has more capacity than your baseboard can emit; look for this.
Also check to see if the Ecobee thermostat light on the left side of the manager ever turns off; if it turns off, then we’ll have to figure out why.
PM me with you installation company name and location and we can coordinate with them as well.
Thank you,
Roger
Roger
Roger
3
Re: Boiler temp question
What you are describing is normal. Remember that with the system pressurized, the boiling point is much higher than 212°F.
Automobile engine cooling systems are pressurized to 15 psi and will not boil unless they exceed 260°F.
Automobile engine cooling systems are pressurized to 15 psi and will not boil unless they exceed 260°F.
bburd
1
Re: Sanden SanCO2 HPWH, adding WiFi controller
It may not be completely obvious, but... wi-fi standards (frequencies, band widths, etc.) are not universally standardized. We here in the US may think they are, but... they aren't. Canada is the only other country in the world which uses the North American standard. Nor, for that matter, are cell phones necessarily. That may be why they haven't got a US model.
Re: Sanden SanCO2 HPWH, adding WiFi controller
I have a resistor I could send you that can be wired to with a switch that spoofs a low tank sensor to the controller starting a heating cycle. I understand you're looking for a wireless option but there is no modbus connection I know of on our models to connect to, even if the wifi module worked with or 60hz mains.
Teemok
1
Re: Rheem Hybrid water heater changing operating modes on its own.
I find this topic interesting end enlightening, and like all conversations, you have to look at the big picture to see what's going on. I think Ethical Paul is assuming that every home these are placed in are old, with uninsulated basement walls and wide open expanses that are not being used for anything other than spider storage. It is implied that these HP water heaters are running on "FREE" energy, when in reality they are not. Someone paid to heat the air in the basement, especially in homes with finished basements. The rH control is a secondary sales feature that has nothing to do with the heating of DHW.
Full disclosure, I've never worked on one, but my 50 years worth of field experience tells me there a rat out there somewhere. The technicians I've spoken to that are working on them in the field tell me that these units are so incapable of handling the demands, that they spend most of their time running on the heating elements (99% efficient, not 400%) and that the mechanical room is so cold you could hang meat in it, even with a gas or oil fired boiler in the same room, so the consumer leaves the door to the mechanical room open, thereby cooling off the balance of the basement, causing the thermostat to call for heat. Tell me again how efficient these systems are?
Sometimes the Government gets a wild hair up their but and pushes an agenda without really looking at the big picture. Like CFT lighting and the associated UV radiation that is causing major failures of plastic components, including PEX tubing, solar PV with a 20% efficiency and a life expectancy that is less than required to hit an economic breakeven without significant Federal subsidies, and will have to be removed and di$po$ed of with that not being taken into consideration on the initial economics.
The equipment manufactures have no choice but to fall in line, or be over run by the competition. Then marketing gets involved, and pushes silly ideas like "FREE" energy and dehumidification to justify the additional expense. Before you hack my head of and throw it out with the wash, understand that I understand the premise of being as efficient as one can be (COP's of 3 or 4), but I also understand the connected loads (human beings), energy sources (conditioned versus non conditioned space or OSA) and the consumers willingness to stand around and wait for a slow compressor to heat their water to a temperature that they can quickly shower in, all in the name of carbon reduction.
I think one thing that really irritates me in this whole GREEEN SCENEario, is the lack of attention to Solar Thermal (60 to 80% efficient with unknown life expectancies) and NO mention of drain waste heat recovery heat exchangers, which by the way are MANDATORY in new construction in Montreal, and can reduce basic DHW heating energy by 50% (excluding solar thermal contributions) , can be employed now without the need for Federal subsidies.
Why do you think solar PV is so popular with the DOE ? Because it can spin the electrical meter backwards, which is exciting. Solar thermal can't spin the gas meter backwards. It can only stop it and that isn't as sexy as spinning a meter backwards. Bureaucrats are running the DOE. I wonder how many of them own stock in Teslas Power Wall and Solar PV systems... HP water heaters should be drawing their "FREE ENERGY
from outside the conditioned home, but that would require additional materials and labor that will jack the price of an installed system upward, affecting the economics and bottom line ROI, and the Marketing department will fight it all the way to Washington DC
I also think that ALL energy conservation products should have a "Cradle to Grave" environmental listing, that will allow the consumer to look at the options, and make an intelligent economic decision, instead of forcing subsidies down their throat with the attitude of "This is what we have to offer, take it or leave it...". We need to have a bigger voice in what the government is forcing upon us. We are ALL paying for the subsidies, wether we use it or not.
Rant over, open to civil conversations about how to REALLY reduce energy consumption, which I do believe is important, regardless of politics. Waste not, want not.
Full disclosure, I've never worked on one, but my 50 years worth of field experience tells me there a rat out there somewhere. The technicians I've spoken to that are working on them in the field tell me that these units are so incapable of handling the demands, that they spend most of their time running on the heating elements (99% efficient, not 400%) and that the mechanical room is so cold you could hang meat in it, even with a gas or oil fired boiler in the same room, so the consumer leaves the door to the mechanical room open, thereby cooling off the balance of the basement, causing the thermostat to call for heat. Tell me again how efficient these systems are?
Sometimes the Government gets a wild hair up their but and pushes an agenda without really looking at the big picture. Like CFT lighting and the associated UV radiation that is causing major failures of plastic components, including PEX tubing, solar PV with a 20% efficiency and a life expectancy that is less than required to hit an economic breakeven without significant Federal subsidies, and will have to be removed and di$po$ed of with that not being taken into consideration on the initial economics.
The equipment manufactures have no choice but to fall in line, or be over run by the competition. Then marketing gets involved, and pushes silly ideas like "FREE" energy and dehumidification to justify the additional expense. Before you hack my head of and throw it out with the wash, understand that I understand the premise of being as efficient as one can be (COP's of 3 or 4), but I also understand the connected loads (human beings), energy sources (conditioned versus non conditioned space or OSA) and the consumers willingness to stand around and wait for a slow compressor to heat their water to a temperature that they can quickly shower in, all in the name of carbon reduction.
I think one thing that really irritates me in this whole GREEEN SCENEario, is the lack of attention to Solar Thermal (60 to 80% efficient with unknown life expectancies) and NO mention of drain waste heat recovery heat exchangers, which by the way are MANDATORY in new construction in Montreal, and can reduce basic DHW heating energy by 50% (excluding solar thermal contributions) , can be employed now without the need for Federal subsidies.
Why do you think solar PV is so popular with the DOE ? Because it can spin the electrical meter backwards, which is exciting. Solar thermal can't spin the gas meter backwards. It can only stop it and that isn't as sexy as spinning a meter backwards. Bureaucrats are running the DOE. I wonder how many of them own stock in Teslas Power Wall and Solar PV systems... HP water heaters should be drawing their "FREE ENERGY
from outside the conditioned home, but that would require additional materials and labor that will jack the price of an installed system upward, affecting the economics and bottom line ROI, and the Marketing department will fight it all the way to Washington DC
I also think that ALL energy conservation products should have a "Cradle to Grave" environmental listing, that will allow the consumer to look at the options, and make an intelligent economic decision, instead of forcing subsidies down their throat with the attitude of "This is what we have to offer, take it or leave it...". We need to have a bigger voice in what the government is forcing upon us. We are ALL paying for the subsidies, wether we use it or not.
Rant over, open to civil conversations about how to REALLY reduce energy consumption, which I do believe is important, regardless of politics. Waste not, want not.
Re: Energy Kinetics and Ecobee not getting up to temperature
What was the high limit temperature on your old boiler? 200°F or even 210°?
It is assumed that most baseboard heating systems were designed so 180° supply with 160° return (average 170°) is enough for heating your home at design conditions. Your home may not be set up that way and require higher temperature water.
If your old system without an energy manager was set at 200° limit and the return water at the end of the loop was about 160° that would indicate that the radiators were delivering over 720 BTUh per foot (your baseboard output numbers may vary but the principle is the same). With the conservative setting of 167° to 170° on your new boiler your same baseboard heaters are giving you about 550BTUh per foot. That is equal to having about 25% less radiators. This baseboard radiator specification illustrates that fact
Your EK boiler with all the bells and whistles will reduce your operating cost, but you need to get it dialed into your home's system. If resetting the high limit temp from 170 to 190 is not cutting it, perhaps there is a different adjustment that will allow the boiler to maintain a higher operating temperature. (not just a higher limit temperature) during these very cold days. Since I'm not familiar with that Energy Manager's operating logarithms I don't know what those settings are. Your EK Dealer should know. or at least call tech support while at your home and let them talk him thru the adjustments
There is another thing that may have bin happening...
How often does it get this cold for this long in you region? Perhaps this is a once in a 10 year event where you get sustained winds and low temperatures. Your old home may have experienced this same problem 8 to 10 years ago and it happened when you were sleeping but got resolves by the time you woke up.
I had just this same thing happen to me after installing a new "High Efficiency" system and set the control to ECONOMY. That weekend we has a once in 10 year event of extreme cold and the home was 66° when they wanted it 72°. of corse they didn't call over the weekend, but on Monday morning I got an ear full.
A minor adjustment from economy to normal would have solved the problem but they didn't read the manual or call me until it was warmer (high 20s°F) so they just assumed that they made a mistake purchasing that equipment. It was several years before they were satisfied that they got the right job. Their fuel usage dropped and when ever it was really cold, they could turn the economy switch to normal.
Don't worry about your decision. Your system just needs to be dialed in properly.
It is assumed that most baseboard heating systems were designed so 180° supply with 160° return (average 170°) is enough for heating your home at design conditions. Your home may not be set up that way and require higher temperature water.
If your old system without an energy manager was set at 200° limit and the return water at the end of the loop was about 160° that would indicate that the radiators were delivering over 720 BTUh per foot (your baseboard output numbers may vary but the principle is the same). With the conservative setting of 167° to 170° on your new boiler your same baseboard heaters are giving you about 550BTUh per foot. That is equal to having about 25% less radiators. This baseboard radiator specification illustrates that fact
Your EK boiler with all the bells and whistles will reduce your operating cost, but you need to get it dialed into your home's system. If resetting the high limit temp from 170 to 190 is not cutting it, perhaps there is a different adjustment that will allow the boiler to maintain a higher operating temperature. (not just a higher limit temperature) during these very cold days. Since I'm not familiar with that Energy Manager's operating logarithms I don't know what those settings are. Your EK Dealer should know. or at least call tech support while at your home and let them talk him thru the adjustments
There is another thing that may have bin happening...
How often does it get this cold for this long in you region? Perhaps this is a once in a 10 year event where you get sustained winds and low temperatures. Your old home may have experienced this same problem 8 to 10 years ago and it happened when you were sleeping but got resolves by the time you woke up.
I had just this same thing happen to me after installing a new "High Efficiency" system and set the control to ECONOMY. That weekend we has a once in 10 year event of extreme cold and the home was 66° when they wanted it 72°. of corse they didn't call over the weekend, but on Monday morning I got an ear full.
A minor adjustment from economy to normal would have solved the problem but they didn't read the manual or call me until it was warmer (high 20s°F) so they just assumed that they made a mistake purchasing that equipment. It was several years before they were satisfied that they got the right job. Their fuel usage dropped and when ever it was really cold, they could turn the economy switch to normal.
Don't worry about your decision. Your system just needs to be dialed in properly.
Re: New steam flange bolts coming loose multiple times
What did you use for a gasket? You need a metal "Flexatallic" gasket for high pressure.
I have never seen bolts get loose and you don't need lock tight or lock washers. As the pipe expands the bolts should tighten as the heat expands everything.
You may need an expansion joint in the piping if the piping is constrained and can't move.
I have never seen bolts get loose and you don't need lock tight or lock washers. As the pipe expands the bolts should tighten as the heat expands everything.
You may need an expansion joint in the piping if the piping is constrained and can't move.
Re: A haunted steam boiler funny story
Great job, I noticed thdrop? By the boiler (along with all the other copper😱) in the first picture which puzzled me. But a curious question I have, was it simply plugged at the other side at the return drip?
hexxman
1
Re: Another discussion about steam boiler sizing
Did every radiator manufacturer use the same methods and process for calculating EDR? Old and modern? The castrad post on the wall posts leads me to think, no. The lab they used also tested older radiators and admits with their method the EDR came out consistently less than what was advertised/written by the manufacturer.
What if the way EDR is calculated for radiators is also "wrong" and the numbers we see in those books are actually 33% over "real word" EDR.
If you used castrad's numbers and sized a boiler based on ten of their 40sf radiators. that's 400sf edr. But if you extrapolated from comparing similar old radiators it'd be closer to 60 sf, that would be 600sf. That's almost 2 boiler sections worth.
How accurate is a boiler's written numbers?
How sure are you that all your radiators are exactly the EDR's you used to size the boiler?
What if the way EDR is calculated for radiators is also "wrong" and the numbers we see in those books are actually 33% over "real word" EDR.
If you used castrad's numbers and sized a boiler based on ten of their 40sf radiators. that's 400sf edr. But if you extrapolated from comparing similar old radiators it'd be closer to 60 sf, that would be 600sf. That's almost 2 boiler sections worth.
How accurate is a boiler's written numbers?
How sure are you that all your radiators are exactly the EDR's you used to size the boiler?
dko
2