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Re: solar heater plan what is wrong with it
Hello, With all the discussion of heat storage, I haven't seen much on how to make the building really efficient. It's beginning to feel to me that is where dollars might be better spent first. Just FYI, I built my house using SIPS. In my mild central California environment (temps measured from 18 to 105) I still used 8" walls, 10" floors and 12" roof. I'm off grid, so the energy mattered. Just for chuckles, if you built your home like an ice chest using 12" SIPs on all six sides, what would your heat loss really be? The main concern about this system is to really seal it so moist indoor air cannot get into the panels or framing, which will rot otherwise.
With an efficient house, your energy supply problem should shrink so that you aren't needing space shuttle technology to make it work.
Yours, Larry
With an efficient house, your energy supply problem should shrink so that you aren't needing space shuttle technology to make it work.
Yours, Larry
Re: solar heater plan what is wrong with it
How much heat are you looking to store. In my case - it was easy to estimate based on the natural gas bills and the efficiency of my Viessmann Vitodens 200 over many winters (at least for my phase 1 concept study).
No way could I store the amount of desired heat long term in a non-phase change tank of fluid.
I think you better evaluate how much heat you need to make your system work - and how much must be stored for say a week of operation during cloudy/rainy days. Then calcualte the temperature rise and drop of your fluids heat capacity per gallon to figure out how large of storage tanks you need. I suspect that you will be surprised (unless you live in a mild weather environment).
Making phase change materials work is also a trick. You cannot have just a huge tank of it. I used a variety of different temperature range phase change materials inside tubes (my battery looked a lot like an industrial tubed heat exchanger - and would have been constructed in a HX shop: note that part of my background is a plant heat exchanger engineer - and I know how to build them to last 100+ years too). This allowed the circulating water to get to the phase change materials and melt them when storing energy, and solidify them when extracting energy.
Of course, phase change materials are not cheap. Nor are tubes to put them in (the support structure for those spaced tubes is cheap - standard HX baffle plates). I would have had a double o-ring seal, crimped ends, and a seal welded pug on each end (with the phase change temperature range indicated on each plug). But the cost of the phase change materials and very long life tubing made the concept cost prohibited. Note that I did assume a few tubes would eventually leak phase change material (its not cost practical to find all flaws - and flaws tend to get worse with time); and my battery was designed to allow that without affecting operation or the heating circuit system and components.
I wish you the best with this...
Perry
No way could I store the amount of desired heat long term in a non-phase change tank of fluid.
I think you better evaluate how much heat you need to make your system work - and how much must be stored for say a week of operation during cloudy/rainy days. Then calcualte the temperature rise and drop of your fluids heat capacity per gallon to figure out how large of storage tanks you need. I suspect that you will be surprised (unless you live in a mild weather environment).
Making phase change materials work is also a trick. You cannot have just a huge tank of it. I used a variety of different temperature range phase change materials inside tubes (my battery looked a lot like an industrial tubed heat exchanger - and would have been constructed in a HX shop: note that part of my background is a plant heat exchanger engineer - and I know how to build them to last 100+ years too). This allowed the circulating water to get to the phase change materials and melt them when storing energy, and solidify them when extracting energy.
Of course, phase change materials are not cheap. Nor are tubes to put them in (the support structure for those spaced tubes is cheap - standard HX baffle plates). I would have had a double o-ring seal, crimped ends, and a seal welded pug on each end (with the phase change temperature range indicated on each plug). But the cost of the phase change materials and very long life tubing made the concept cost prohibited. Note that I did assume a few tubes would eventually leak phase change material (its not cost practical to find all flaws - and flaws tend to get worse with time); and my battery was designed to allow that without affecting operation or the heating circuit system and components.
I wish you the best with this...
Perry
Steam venting -- a slightly contrarian point of view
I admit to getting somewhat bemused by the discussions of how to vent steam heating systems which turn up from time to time -- often involving detailed calculations of pipe size and volume and the like, and often using (usually somewhat erratically) @gerry gill 's invaluable research and measurements on vents.
The first thing to recognize is that there really are two aspects to venting. The first is to ensure that the steam mains -- including any associated longer risers -- are filled with steam as evenly and as quickly as possible. The question here is usually posed as something along the lines of "how big a vent do I need". Wrong question. The real question is, "how small a vent can I get away with". The velocity (not really the right word but it will do) at which a steam main will fill with steam and begin to deliver steam to the radiation is governed by three things: how long it takes the main itself to warm up and stop condensing the steam, what the boiler power is to generate steam to fill the main, and how fast air can get out of it. While it may be entertaining to calculate the volume of air in the main and what size vent will allow that air to escape at a certain rate and pressure, that ignores the effect of the other two aspects -- which are at least as important. It may make economic sense to skimp on main vent size (big ones don't come cheap) but, on the other hand, it may also be worth remembering that in the bad old days some two pipe systems vented through open pipes to the chimney or even the basement -- and many, but not all, two pipe systems vented into the dry returns with crossover traps, which have a huge airflow capacity (the Barnes & Jones Big Mouth is just a standard trap minus the float, after all).
So for mains... one can say that in general bigger is better.
Risers and runouts are a slightly more complicated situation, and here the consideration is different for one pipe systems and two pipe systems. First, in two pipe systems, the riser or runout will likely be adequately vented by the radiation, unless it is very long and the radiation at the end is relatively small. On one pipe systems, however, a very good case can be made for providing "main" vents on the risers or runouts, unless they are very short. Why? Because in those systems, the vents on the radiators serve a very different function than the traps or other devices on two pipe systems.
On two pipe systems, the heat output of the radiator is controlled by two factors: the size of the radiator and the rate at which steam can enter the radiator (there are a few systems where the steam entry is controlled by limiting the air exit with an orifice at the outlet -- but these behave like one pipe radiators, not two pipe radiators). Venting is not a consideration here, save only that the dry returns are adequately vented (and, like mains, bigger is better here). Rather, the power output may be controlled for the heating demand of the space by adjusting the inlet valve or, if so fitted, by changing the inlet orifice, provided only that the radiator is big enough to begin with.
One pipe is another matter entirely. For a one pipe system once the radiator is filled with steam and the vent is closed, there is no further control of power output possible; the radiator will put out its full rated power until the boiler stops supplying steam (which, incidentally, is why -- besides controlling pressure -- it is essential that a boiler on a one pipe steam system is cycled off at reasonably regular intervals; to regain control of heat in various spaces). What the radiator vent does here is control how long it takes for the radiator to fill with steam from the time that steam reaches it, and thus how long it takes to ramp up to full power -- and therefore the total energy output, averaged over the boiler cycle length, it will produce. Now you can slow this down with a smaller vent, but once the vent size is enlarged to be more or less equivalent to an open pipe of the vent attachment, you can't speed it up. It can be seen, though, that the more evenly steam reaches all the radiators the better one's control can be -- which is an argument as noted above for providing main type venting on longer or more heavily loaded risers and runouts.
Miscellaneous rambling. For what they're worth.
The first thing to recognize is that there really are two aspects to venting. The first is to ensure that the steam mains -- including any associated longer risers -- are filled with steam as evenly and as quickly as possible. The question here is usually posed as something along the lines of "how big a vent do I need". Wrong question. The real question is, "how small a vent can I get away with". The velocity (not really the right word but it will do) at which a steam main will fill with steam and begin to deliver steam to the radiation is governed by three things: how long it takes the main itself to warm up and stop condensing the steam, what the boiler power is to generate steam to fill the main, and how fast air can get out of it. While it may be entertaining to calculate the volume of air in the main and what size vent will allow that air to escape at a certain rate and pressure, that ignores the effect of the other two aspects -- which are at least as important. It may make economic sense to skimp on main vent size (big ones don't come cheap) but, on the other hand, it may also be worth remembering that in the bad old days some two pipe systems vented through open pipes to the chimney or even the basement -- and many, but not all, two pipe systems vented into the dry returns with crossover traps, which have a huge airflow capacity (the Barnes & Jones Big Mouth is just a standard trap minus the float, after all).
So for mains... one can say that in general bigger is better.
Risers and runouts are a slightly more complicated situation, and here the consideration is different for one pipe systems and two pipe systems. First, in two pipe systems, the riser or runout will likely be adequately vented by the radiation, unless it is very long and the radiation at the end is relatively small. On one pipe systems, however, a very good case can be made for providing "main" vents on the risers or runouts, unless they are very short. Why? Because in those systems, the vents on the radiators serve a very different function than the traps or other devices on two pipe systems.
On two pipe systems, the heat output of the radiator is controlled by two factors: the size of the radiator and the rate at which steam can enter the radiator (there are a few systems where the steam entry is controlled by limiting the air exit with an orifice at the outlet -- but these behave like one pipe radiators, not two pipe radiators). Venting is not a consideration here, save only that the dry returns are adequately vented (and, like mains, bigger is better here). Rather, the power output may be controlled for the heating demand of the space by adjusting the inlet valve or, if so fitted, by changing the inlet orifice, provided only that the radiator is big enough to begin with.
One pipe is another matter entirely. For a one pipe system once the radiator is filled with steam and the vent is closed, there is no further control of power output possible; the radiator will put out its full rated power until the boiler stops supplying steam (which, incidentally, is why -- besides controlling pressure -- it is essential that a boiler on a one pipe steam system is cycled off at reasonably regular intervals; to regain control of heat in various spaces). What the radiator vent does here is control how long it takes for the radiator to fill with steam from the time that steam reaches it, and thus how long it takes to ramp up to full power -- and therefore the total energy output, averaged over the boiler cycle length, it will produce. Now you can slow this down with a smaller vent, but once the vent size is enlarged to be more or less equivalent to an open pipe of the vent attachment, you can't speed it up. It can be seen, though, that the more evenly steam reaches all the radiators the better one's control can be -- which is an argument as noted above for providing main type venting on longer or more heavily loaded risers and runouts.
Miscellaneous rambling. For what they're worth.
Re: Tandem oil tanks
Tanks
The only diagram I've ever seen on this is to have one 2" fill into first tank, one 2" transfer pipe from first tank into second tank from top of both tanks, & one 2" vent from second tank to outdoors, used to be 1 1/4" on vent but think it has changed to full 2"------AL
The only diagram I've ever seen on this is to have one 2" fill into first tank, one 2" transfer pipe from first tank into second tank from top of both tanks, & one 2" vent from second tank to outdoors, used to be 1 1/4" on vent but think it has changed to full 2"------AL
1
Re: Asbestos (paper type) behind recessed radiator - who can help?
Treat it as if it is ACM (asbestos containing material). Is that steam radiators? If so, the Abatement companies are capable of disconnecting a radiator. No biggie. Mad Dog 🐕Yes, steam radiators (recessed type, though). This is helpful, thanks - we have an asbestos company that two friends recommended, but I was not sure if they would do the radiator removal to be able to actually get at the asbestos paper.
Re: Steam boiler maintenance
Not recommended. That exposes the entire boiler block to air and corrosion. Some people fill their boiler up into the risers to keep the block completely under water. Others, just leave it alone. I personally change the water level up or down an inch or two at the end of the heating season so as to prevent rust through at the normal water line where air and water meet.
1
Re: Why my 85% efficient cast iron boiler is really only 78% efficient
Since you seem to like crunching numbers..
I think this BIN data can be useful for analyzing heating systems, performance, efficiency, etc.
Some bucket time needed to look into these efficiency numbers.
I suspect few boilers operate at steady state condition for much of their life. If so the math is simple.
Steady State= heat output in Btu/hr ÷ energy input of boiler
128,000 ÷ (1.18) ( 140,000 Btu/ gal #2)= 77% efficient
Cycle Efficiency= total heat output over period of time ÷ energy content of fuel used over that time. Obviously a lower % number
Run Fraction= burner on÷total elapsed time
5 minutes on ÷ 5 min + 20 min = 20%
Look at a partial load condition with 128K boiler supplying a 40K load
40,000 ÷ 128,000= 31%
Plot that 31% on this Brookhaven developed chart, at 30% efficiency goes south quickly.
If you know the actual heat load of the building you can go a step further
Heat load of 100,000 (70°-40°) ÷ 70°-0°= 20,000 BTU/hr - minus internal gains, call it 20,000
22, 860 ÷128,000 = 17.8%. on the graph, looks like you are slipping into the mid to low 70% range
Use your actual numbers. An unknown is which boiler output number to use IBR net assumes 15% heat loss. To tighten that number a piping heat loss could be used. In a system with large uninsulated piping, boiler in cold spaces that 15% number could be off by a bit?
Formulas from Modern Hydronic Heating & Cooling 4th edition Chapter 3
I think this BIN data can be useful for analyzing heating systems, performance, efficiency, etc.
Some bucket time needed to look into these efficiency numbers.
I suspect few boilers operate at steady state condition for much of their life. If so the math is simple.
Steady State= heat output in Btu/hr ÷ energy input of boiler
128,000 ÷ (1.18) ( 140,000 Btu/ gal #2)= 77% efficient
Cycle Efficiency= total heat output over period of time ÷ energy content of fuel used over that time. Obviously a lower % number
Run Fraction= burner on÷total elapsed time
5 minutes on ÷ 5 min + 20 min = 20%
Look at a partial load condition with 128K boiler supplying a 40K load
40,000 ÷ 128,000= 31%
Plot that 31% on this Brookhaven developed chart, at 30% efficiency goes south quickly.
If you know the actual heat load of the building you can go a step further
Heat load of 100,000 (70°-40°) ÷ 70°-0°= 20,000 BTU/hr - minus internal gains, call it 20,000
22, 860 ÷128,000 = 17.8%. on the graph, looks like you are slipping into the mid to low 70% range
Use your actual numbers. An unknown is which boiler output number to use IBR net assumes 15% heat loss. To tighten that number a piping heat loss could be used. In a system with large uninsulated piping, boiler in cold spaces that 15% number could be off by a bit?
Formulas from Modern Hydronic Heating & Cooling 4th edition Chapter 3
hot_rod
2
Re: What is this vent?
W.A. Russell Co. was also located in Bridgeport, CT for a while. They also sold vents with the "WARCO" name.
Re: San Francisco steam help
It looks like your steam pressure is set too high. Please take a close-up photo of the two gray boxes that say "pressuretrol" on top of the boiler. Those vents are supposed to operate at three psi or less.
bburd
1
Re: To those with more knowledge than myself, would you install a new gas or heating oil system ?
Some additional info. Compare fuel costs here.
https://coalpail.com/fuel-comparison-calculator-home-heating
The EIA website has fuel costs for various areas of the country with data going back 20 years or more to get past fuel cost trends.
https://coalpail.com/fuel-comparison-calculator-home-heating
The EIA website has fuel costs for various areas of the country with data going back 20 years or more to get past fuel cost trends.
hot_rod
1

