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CI radiator demo high and low connections
Broke my heart to cut out this decorative plug.. but in the interest of research. Cast plugs don't come out easily like steel nipples. So I chose to tap the inside to 1". I think I can braze the flowered plug cut off back onto a 1" steel plug.
So feeding the bottom at 4 gpm, return from top same side. 45 minute run time.
Delta T started at 12, closed to 8 at 45 minute run.
BTU output at start, cold radiator 25.8K BTU, 500 X 4 X 12.6= 25,200 BTU/ hr
BTU output at 45 minute 19.4
So the BTU meter reading and the hydronic formula, in italics, pretty much square.
Also, no question the connections on the same side, top and bottom does allow the radiator to heat just fine. It differs from the bottom to bottom flow path by the heating profile, a small amount.
Getting toasty in here, I'll run it to thermal equilibrium, supply and return temperature stabilize.
So feeding the bottom at 4 gpm, return from top same side. 45 minute run time.
Delta T started at 12, closed to 8 at 45 minute run.
BTU output at start, cold radiator 25.8K BTU, 500 X 4 X 12.6= 25,200 BTU/ hr
BTU output at 45 minute 19.4
So the BTU meter reading and the hydronic formula, in italics, pretty much square.
Also, no question the connections on the same side, top and bottom does allow the radiator to heat just fine. It differs from the bottom to bottom flow path by the heating profile, a small amount.
Getting toasty in here, I'll run it to thermal equilibrium, supply and return temperature stabilize.
hot_rod
3
Re: Snake-bit Hot Water Heat
With plans like that no wonder it doesnt work. My eyes hurt from looking at them
Re: Cast iron radiator at high flow rate
@SteamheadNo, the opposite. One side had way more flow, and that was where it was overheating and leaking- right near the return connection.
OK, I read through your case study again. I think I answered my question about unequal distribution, and how you fixed it.
I was having a problem visualizing the two sided boiler. So one side had lower flow and was getting too hot? You increased the flow to the hot side, and that resolved the problem?
As a car guy, I'm sure you understand "dwell" in old-school breaker-point ignition. You need a certain amount of dwell to build up the magnetic field in the ignition coil, so when the points open and the field collapses, there will be enough energy in the "collapse" to generate a spark.
Same concept here. If the water is racing through the boiler fast enough, it won't stay in the boiler long enough to pick up the heat. Not enough dwell, as it were. In this case, the wildly oversized circ and the unequal distribution combine to produce this result.
@hot_rod , we'd have to locate some design info that was used to design gravity systems. I'm sure it's out there.
Oh, and having had that experience, I've been able to solve some other systems' problems. One that comes to mind was a converted gravity system with ~700 square feet of radiation. The old B&G 100 circ had been replaced with a Taco 0010, which has almost exactly the same performance curve. The lady complained that the bedroom was too hot, so I helped her turn the shutoff valve clockwise. But the room got hotter!
I'm sure you all see what the problem was now- reducing the flow made the water distribute through all of the radiator, which increased its output.
I replaced the 0010 with a 007, opened the valve, and the problem went away.
Remember, when dealing with a gravity conversion, you have to think like the Dead Men did, and try to mimic the flow they designed the system for.
Re: Radiant: Between Joist - Are my Joists and subfloors drying out and twisting/slight movement?
New Information:
I thought of something thismorning that may be the cause that I forgot about. Specifically in the wall directly where the floor is raising There was a leak in my chimney flashing that leaked into my attic > eventually the water made its way down that wall. It must have made its way to the bottom of the wall and into the subfloor. The radiant must have dried it up causing the plywood underlay and possibly the laminate to raise/warp. The laminate looks fine on the top but perhaps the plywood is warping or both. It seems a little ridiculous for the radiant to dry the wood out that much in and older house that has been heated and lived in for that long (1970 house).
I am going have to slide the floor a part and investigate more.
I thought of something thismorning that may be the cause that I forgot about. Specifically in the wall directly where the floor is raising There was a leak in my chimney flashing that leaked into my attic > eventually the water made its way down that wall. It must have made its way to the bottom of the wall and into the subfloor. The radiant must have dried it up causing the plywood underlay and possibly the laminate to raise/warp. The laminate looks fine on the top but perhaps the plywood is warping or both. It seems a little ridiculous for the radiant to dry the wood out that much in and older house that has been heated and lived in for that long (1970 house).
I am going have to slide the floor a part and investigate more.
2
Re: Cast iron radiator at high flow rate
@hot_rod , the place I've seen over-pumped rads is in converted gravity systems. These have larger pipes feeding the rads than newer systems do, since the original motive force acting on the water is so small. Over-pumping one of these can, and does, cause the water to short-circuit through the rads. Here is an extreme example (note that we eventually replaced the original boiler some years ago):
https://www.heatinghelp.com/systems-help-center/adjusting-the-flow-rate-for-an-old-gravity-hot-water-system/
which led to further research that produced this:
https://www.heatinghelp.com/systems-help-center/sizing-circulators-for-old-gravity-hot-water-heating-systems/
https://www.heatinghelp.com/systems-help-center/adjusting-the-flow-rate-for-an-old-gravity-hot-water-system/
which led to further research that produced this:
https://www.heatinghelp.com/systems-help-center/sizing-circulators-for-old-gravity-hot-water-heating-systems/
Re: Punctured Kitec Pex-Al-Pex lines - best path forward?
I didn't think there was a 3/8 Kitec? What is the O.D.?
1/2" is .640 outside.
A company in Canada makes Kitec fittings
www.veratek.ca
1/2" is .640 outside.
A company in Canada makes Kitec fittings
www.veratek.ca
hot_rod
2
Re: Oversize boiler or juuust big enough, based on past utility usage, and other questions
....I don't know why I thought DHW would be less of a demand.FWIW: in Downeast Maine, my on-demand water heater is twice the BTU of my hot air furnace. Yes the air is cold, but water in Maine ground is colder (not in degrees but in heat-suckage)....
Yeah, back in New Jersey in a UN-insulated 1830s house the water-heat was a trivial load on a massive steam-boiler, but opposite here.
My recent experience with a "just right" hot air and A/C system is that I coulda used the next size up on both burner and chiller. It works but has to run up to 23 hours/day and won't recover quickly after a deep set-back. Bigger parts would be more idle/standby losses but I can't see it would be unaffordable.
BTW, IMHO: get the place rented ASAP. I think the recent panic in housing is about to turn cold.
2
Re: HePEX expansion noise or use Pex-Al-Pex?
The tube really should not move in the aluminum plates. Use a brand that has a tight grab on the tube. Do not fasten the end of the loops so movement can occur there.
Any of the brand name he-Pex should work, stay with one that has a coating over the EVOH barrier. The hard, high gloss coatings tend to make noise.
Go with an A Pex for best flexibility
Any of the brand name he-Pex should work, stay with one that has a coating over the EVOH barrier. The hard, high gloss coatings tend to make noise.
Go with an A Pex for best flexibility
hot_rod
1
Re: Help Please! Old 2-pipe System
Others will have better ideas than I do about testign steam traps. Failed closed is harder to test, you can get some idea about if they are failed open if it is steam hot on both sides of the trap.
Steam in the returns will cause 2 big problems.
1. If it reaches the return vent it will close the vent and stop all venting of air from the system.
2. If it reaches the outlet side of a steam trap through the return before steam reaches the trap through the supply it will close the trap and stop the radiator(or main) from venting air any further.
3. It can cause water hammer
Steam in the returns will cause 2 big problems.
1. If it reaches the return vent it will close the vent and stop all venting of air from the system.
2. If it reaches the outlet side of a steam trap through the return before steam reaches the trap through the supply it will close the trap and stop the radiator(or main) from venting air any further.
3. It can cause water hammer
1
Re: Help Please! Old 2-pipe System
If everything is set up right steam should never reach the traps on the radiators.True. However, the amount of time and testing -- and precision of control -- required to reach that wonderful state is beyond what most people will be willing to pay for. Ideally, one would have both the precisely adjusted and never to be touched inlet control device and, for the occasion when the pressure gets too high, the trap. Further, there is an assumption made that the system is so well balanced that steam arrives at every radiator at exactly the right time for it to put out exactly the right amount of heat to heat that space that day. Good luck with that one.
I agree, I'm not a purist. Put the traps on -- they're not that expensive -- and relax. And if you never get the differential pressure too high they'll last pretty well forever. The system Cedric powers has aboout three dozen traps (Hoffmans) which were installed in 1930 -- and haven't been touched since and still work just fine
