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Re: Help Please! Old 2-pipe System
Others will have better ideas than I do about testign steam traps. Failed closed is harder to test, you can get some idea about if they are failed open if it is steam hot on both sides of the trap.
Steam in the returns will cause 2 big problems.
1. If it reaches the return vent it will close the vent and stop all venting of air from the system.
2. If it reaches the outlet side of a steam trap through the return before steam reaches the trap through the supply it will close the trap and stop the radiator(or main) from venting air any further.
3. It can cause water hammer
Steam in the returns will cause 2 big problems.
1. If it reaches the return vent it will close the vent and stop all venting of air from the system.
2. If it reaches the outlet side of a steam trap through the return before steam reaches the trap through the supply it will close the trap and stop the radiator(or main) from venting air any further.
3. It can cause water hammer
mattmia2
1
Re: Help Please! Old 2-pipe System
If everything is set up right steam should never reach the traps on the radiators.True. However, the amount of time and testing -- and precision of control -- required to reach that wonderful state is beyond what most people will be willing to pay for. Ideally, one would have both the precisely adjusted and never to be touched inlet control device and, for the occasion when the pressure gets too high, the trap. Further, there is an assumption made that the system is so well balanced that steam arrives at every radiator at exactly the right time for it to put out exactly the right amount of heat to heat that space that day. Good luck with that one.
I agree, I'm not a purist. Put the traps on -- they're not that expensive -- and relax. And if you never get the differential pressure too high they'll last pretty well forever. The system Cedric powers has aboout three dozen traps (Hoffmans) which were installed in 1930 -- and haven't been touched since and still work just fine
Re: Help Please! Old 2-pipe System
If everything is set up right steam should never reach the traps on the radiators.
mattmia2
1
Re: Help Please! Old 2-pipe System
You can test the traps simply by measuring the temperature drop across them when the radiator is fully hot. The inlet should be at least 5 degrees hotter than the outlet (use an IR thermometer, but be aware that if the finish on the two pipes is different the temperatures may not be accurate. And measure the outlet as far away from the trap as is reasonable...)
Re: Help Please! Old 2-pipe System
there are instructions for the valve about where to set the stop based on the edr it is connected to, right?Yes, there are. They are internal, however, at least on Hoffman valves and a pain. Perhaps more to the point, the markings are correct for one and only one differential pressure (I believe it is 4 ounces per square inch) (the same problem exists for orifices -- they are correct for one, and only one, differential pressure).
Mind you, I'm not saying that using a steam trap to keep steam out of the return instead of a precisely set valve or orifice is as elegant as the valve or orifice. It isn't, and there's a certain pleasure and pride in getting a regulating valve or orifice system set up properly. But doing that requires that the boiler be precisely matched to the radiation demand (and let's not forget that that varies with room temperature...) (or has a narrow band pressure control) and that the boiler pressure is allowed to reach optimum pressure quickly and then stabilises there, and that someone has been able to take the time and go around to the entire system and set the valves or swap orifices until the whole thing is in balance.
Re: Help Please! Old 2-pipe System
You should put a vent in there, but you can test without anything in the tapping. The one that @Steamhead recommended probably vents a lot faster than the original which was probably mostly intended for coal and a very massive boiler which would heat slowly and not start producing steam as fast as a modern relatively low mass boiler. Your problem with the water leaving the boiler isn't the vacuum vent, or at least the vacuum part.
Too much detergent in the boiler will cause it to prime(foam) and throw water in to the mains that way.
Too much detergent in the boiler will cause it to prime(foam) and throw water in to the mains that way.
mattmia2
1
Re: Radiant Hydronic baseboard sys keeps bursting. - seeking guidance
I'm quite sure there is a way -- though it may be a bit tricky -- to add glycol to your system. To figure out how, a few pictures in the vicinity of the boiler would help.
And yes, I know glycol is a nuisance. So, however, are frozen pipes...
Now the two suggestions above mine here are good, but there's more. A baseboard system should circulate at least once -- preferably twice -- every hour. How long it needs to circulate depends on how much heat is needed, of course, but it should. This depends on the thermostats. The old Honeywell dials should do that -- but it may help, oddly, to lower the water temperature going to the baseboards from the boilers, so they would have to run longer to keep the house warm. How low? Now that's a bit of a guessing game, but when the temperature is at, say, 20 in your area I'd want them running about half the time at least.
What is the make and model of your boilers? It's probable, given the age, that they aren't condensing -- so the lowest return temperature they should see is around 140. This may mean that you need to use what is called "primary/secondary" plumbing, in which there is a loop which circulates through the boilers, and a different loop which circulates through the heating. That second loop uses a mixing valve to take some of the return water from the radiators and mix it with the supply from the boiler to get the temperature of water in the radiators where you want it.
And the last comment I'll have right now is to make sure that the air is out of the system so it can circulate, and that the system pressure is adequate. You want, for the second floor, about 15 psi as a minimum. Again some pictures will help here.
And yes, I know glycol is a nuisance. So, however, are frozen pipes...
Now the two suggestions above mine here are good, but there's more. A baseboard system should circulate at least once -- preferably twice -- every hour. How long it needs to circulate depends on how much heat is needed, of course, but it should. This depends on the thermostats. The old Honeywell dials should do that -- but it may help, oddly, to lower the water temperature going to the baseboards from the boilers, so they would have to run longer to keep the house warm. How low? Now that's a bit of a guessing game, but when the temperature is at, say, 20 in your area I'd want them running about half the time at least.
What is the make and model of your boilers? It's probable, given the age, that they aren't condensing -- so the lowest return temperature they should see is around 140. This may mean that you need to use what is called "primary/secondary" plumbing, in which there is a loop which circulates through the boilers, and a different loop which circulates through the heating. That second loop uses a mixing valve to take some of the return water from the radiators and mix it with the supply from the boiler to get the temperature of water in the radiators where you want it.
And the last comment I'll have right now is to make sure that the air is out of the system so it can circulate, and that the system pressure is adequate. You want, for the second floor, about 15 psi as a minimum. Again some pictures will help here.
Re: New steam vent still leaking lots of steam
Being a contrary minded soul sometimes, have you tried the system with the vent on the first radiator completely closed? And a fairly large vent on the end radiator?
Cast iron radiator at high flow rate
I've been playing around with cast radiators at different flow rates.
Also checking output with low SWT. I ran this one today at 8 gpm, 1" ID hose.
About 90 SWT.
I will compare heat up time at 1 and 4 gpm, 1/2 and 3/4 supply for example, as a for comparison.
Connected supply and return on the bottom connections. Within 20 minutes it was pretty consistently warm. After an hour delta was down to .6°
Even at these high flow rates across the bottom, the upper part of the sections get as warm, as the lower part.
Also checking output with low SWT. I ran this one today at 8 gpm, 1" ID hose.
About 90 SWT.
I will compare heat up time at 1 and 4 gpm, 1/2 and 3/4 supply for example, as a for comparison.
Connected supply and return on the bottom connections. Within 20 minutes it was pretty consistently warm. After an hour delta was down to .6°
Even at these high flow rates across the bottom, the upper part of the sections get as warm, as the lower part.
hot_rod
4