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Re: Condensation Issues in Chimney with New Boiler
Well, the raised stack temp helped a lot but there is still a fair amount of condensation. In goes the liner ASAP. I'll keep you posted.
dziukap
1
Re: Condensation Issues in Chimney with New Boiler
The bottom line to the OP is if your getting condensate on the floor from the flue it's time to line the flue, and insulate it.
Lining does not stop condensate alone but it protects the masonary from damage due to corrosive condensate. Insulating will allow that liner to warm up quicker, and stay warm longer.
Lining does not stop condensate alone but it protects the masonary from damage due to corrosive condensate. Insulating will allow that liner to warm up quicker, and stay warm longer.
Gordy
4
Re: Condensation Issues in Chimney with New Boiler
I think it's fair to the OP to explain what exactly happens that leads to the need to change a flue configuration.
These are changes not only to the heating plant, but to the rest of the structure over the course of years since its conception.
Usually with older envelopes change happens in small increments as thought needed, or as can be afforded to accomplish.
All the evolving envelope upgrades create huge impacts in the end result. Ending with a replacement heating plant of better efficiency that can no longer use the same flue configuration for venting that's worked for decades because it's exhaust temp is no longer hot enough to keep the flue from being damaged by excessive condensation.
These are changes not only to the heating plant, but to the rest of the structure over the course of years since its conception.
Usually with older envelopes change happens in small increments as thought needed, or as can be afforded to accomplish.
All the evolving envelope upgrades create huge impacts in the end result. Ending with a replacement heating plant of better efficiency that can no longer use the same flue configuration for venting that's worked for decades because it's exhaust temp is no longer hot enough to keep the flue from being damaged by excessive condensation.
Gordy
3
Re: Condensation Issues in Chimney with New Boiler
It's one of three things; (1) the ductwork; (2) the ductwork, or; (3) the ductwork.
Spence
1
Condensation Issues in Chimney with New Boiler
We just purchased a new home in CT. It had the original 1960 Arcoleader oil boiler in it that was eating 35 gallons of oil a month just for domestic hot water. We replaced it with a Buderus G115WS4 linked to a stainless steel crown indirect. Great system by the way, sips oil.
Our installer, who was great and very knowledgeable(licensed Buderus installer), warned us that with a 2 story brick chimney on top of the story of flue in the foundation wall, we would get condensation issues, and probably have to line the chimney with stainless steel, but he said wait and see what happens. Well lo and behold, the boiler finally ran hard all night for the first time this week and we have about a quart or so of water dumping out of the lower flue door every night now from condensation(it's not running back to the boiler, we have a flue access clean-out built into the 10 inch poured concrete foundation).
Our installer is on vacation until December 2nd, so until I can discuss it with him I'm interested in getting as much info as I can.
First of all, our chimney has a combined flue for our living room fireplace and the boiler. If we line it with a reduced size stainless steel flue to reduce condensation and eliminate condensation damage to the mortar, that pretty much means our fire place is DOA correct, or will they be able to set it up so we can still use the fire place? It's just a standard fire place, not a wood burning stove.
Secondly, the installer said that the Buderus' flue exhaust temperature is so low due to it's efficiency, that even with proper sizing and lining, you can't eliminate condensation completely with a 2 story chimney because there is so much cooling off that happens by the time it exits 3 stories above, and it never runs long enough to really heat the chimney up and burn off the condensation. In that case, what do people do to control the moisture? I don't fancy having a water logged towel by our flue every night for the rest of our lives, even if it isn't damaging the chimney anymore. I believe the G115WS4 can be switched to a direct vent set up without a power vent(maybe I'm wrong?), but it would be VERY difficult to meet code with the orientation of our house, and exterior items where the venting would need to be, and costly to modify the chimney this way.
Well, we knew this was probably coming, now it is just a question of making a decision.
Our installer, who was great and very knowledgeable(licensed Buderus installer), warned us that with a 2 story brick chimney on top of the story of flue in the foundation wall, we would get condensation issues, and probably have to line the chimney with stainless steel, but he said wait and see what happens. Well lo and behold, the boiler finally ran hard all night for the first time this week and we have about a quart or so of water dumping out of the lower flue door every night now from condensation(it's not running back to the boiler, we have a flue access clean-out built into the 10 inch poured concrete foundation).
Our installer is on vacation until December 2nd, so until I can discuss it with him I'm interested in getting as much info as I can.
First of all, our chimney has a combined flue for our living room fireplace and the boiler. If we line it with a reduced size stainless steel flue to reduce condensation and eliminate condensation damage to the mortar, that pretty much means our fire place is DOA correct, or will they be able to set it up so we can still use the fire place? It's just a standard fire place, not a wood burning stove.
Secondly, the installer said that the Buderus' flue exhaust temperature is so low due to it's efficiency, that even with proper sizing and lining, you can't eliminate condensation completely with a 2 story chimney because there is so much cooling off that happens by the time it exits 3 stories above, and it never runs long enough to really heat the chimney up and burn off the condensation. In that case, what do people do to control the moisture? I don't fancy having a water logged towel by our flue every night for the rest of our lives, even if it isn't damaging the chimney anymore. I believe the G115WS4 can be switched to a direct vent set up without a power vent(maybe I'm wrong?), but it would be VERY difficult to meet code with the orientation of our house, and exterior items where the venting would need to be, and costly to modify the chimney this way.
Well, we knew this was probably coming, now it is just a question of making a decision.
dziukap
1
Help with Weil-McLain CGa gas boiler?
Here's the manual for my boiler: https://www.weil-mclain.com/sites/default/files/field-file/CGa Series 3 Boiler Manual 0520.pdf
This boiler has been mostly fine since we moved in last year. Over the last couple weeks, we've occasionally been waking up to a cold house, with the lights on the control module flickering erratically (not like any error code from what I can tell). See YouTube video here for example:
https://youtu.be/W4E-Kigkn_M
The TSTAT/CIRC and LIMIT lights flicker on and off. Then they stay on as DAMPER and FLAME come on, but then TSTAT/CIRC and LIMIT flicker off again and everything turns off. Then the cycle repeats.
What I've been doing to resolve: I just turn the boiler off and step away for an hour. This is around 5am or so. Around 6am, I go back and switch the boiler on and it starts more or less working normally. I'll see the TSTAT/CIRC and LIMIT lights trip and turn off from time to time but it's an isolated incident during the daytime—it's only during the cold nights that it won't leave that cycle and create heat at all.
I've done the basic stuff suggested by my HVAC pro like cleaning the flame sensor and leaving the damper stuck open. Any suggestions?
This boiler has been mostly fine since we moved in last year. Over the last couple weeks, we've occasionally been waking up to a cold house, with the lights on the control module flickering erratically (not like any error code from what I can tell). See YouTube video here for example:
https://youtu.be/W4E-Kigkn_MThe TSTAT/CIRC and LIMIT lights flicker on and off. Then they stay on as DAMPER and FLAME come on, but then TSTAT/CIRC and LIMIT flicker off again and everything turns off. Then the cycle repeats.
What I've been doing to resolve: I just turn the boiler off and step away for an hour. This is around 5am or so. Around 6am, I go back and switch the boiler on and it starts more or less working normally. I'll see the TSTAT/CIRC and LIMIT lights trip and turn off from time to time but it's an isolated incident during the daytime—it's only during the cold nights that it won't leave that cycle and create heat at all.
I've done the basic stuff suggested by my HVAC pro like cleaning the flame sensor and leaving the damper stuck open. Any suggestions?
Jaaan
1
Re: Electric steam boilers?
It would have been MUCH better to start a new thread on this...
Electric steam boilers do exist. Quite a number of manufacturers, in fact. As with any such project, you will want to do your arithmetic very thoroughly. It is possible, with a big enough array and counting on the "grid" to "store" electricity (it doesn't store it, of course) you might be economically ahead in the current regulatory and political environment. If you are thinking of this as a "green" solution, you will not be ahead, as that "stored" electricity which you use in the winter will be generated by natural gas -- at a third of the efficiency of a modern steam boiler. You will also be dependent on the grid keeping up in the winter, which it may or may not be able to do.
Electric steam boilers do exist. Quite a number of manufacturers, in fact. As with any such project, you will want to do your arithmetic very thoroughly. It is possible, with a big enough array and counting on the "grid" to "store" electricity (it doesn't store it, of course) you might be economically ahead in the current regulatory and political environment. If you are thinking of this as a "green" solution, you will not be ahead, as that "stored" electricity which you use in the winter will be generated by natural gas -- at a third of the efficiency of a modern steam boiler. You will also be dependent on the grid keeping up in the winter, which it may or may not be able to do.
Re: Dumb geothermal question
That is probably true, but now let's add the problem of drawing your water from your house well. Providing 4.5 gpm from a 10 gpm pump, where the water is then let out into a natural runoff , ending in a lake. If you ran continually, then you run the risk of drying up your well. So, in my particular case the single stage on/off scenario is the one that works. If I were to dump it back down another well, then maybe your scenario would be better. But at this point, 3k to buy the hp, running for a year costs me 250.00 plus 40 more for running the well pump. So 300/year is not so bad a cost.
I just didn't understand how the new economical units worked.
Thanks for the explanation !
I just didn't understand how the new economical units worked.
Thanks for the explanation !
RonLud
2
Replacement / Sizing of boiler
I woke up in the middle of the night about 2 weeks ago worrying about my 23 year old Burnham boiler. It leaks a little and the near-boiler plumbing has some minor leaks. I've spent hours since then on this site learning a ton. I made the decision to make some calls this summer (off-season) to make plans to replace it at some point. Well, it apparently has a mind of its own and decided to quit yesterday. It appears to be the power vent motor, but it will be a couple of days before I can get somebody out here and a few more days for parts to arrive according to the repair guy. He's saying that he wants to see the setup first and diagnose the problem, but suggested that if my boiler is a 20+ year old leaker, that I might want to put the cost of a new power vent towards a whole new system. He's a big Burnham / US Boiler guy. The two other vendors in my area tend to do Rinnai-type systems for smaller and more efficient homes.
So I'd like to share what I've learned on here and see what you think.
Boiler is 198k in / 168k DOE out Burnham Series 2, 1999 build date. 4100 sf house, 2 levels, 5 zones + sidearm for DHW. All baseboard fintube. I've used Loadcalc many times for AC sizing in Texas, but didn't attempt it here (southern Colorado) because of so many different window sizes, wall exposures, ceiling heights, many many windows, etc. So I used a couple of "guesstimate" methods from here. From the propane use / highest bill calculation, my biggest load was around 84k BTUs / hr. From the feet-of-baseboard calc, if I use 550 BTU output per foot of fin tube, I get about 92K BTUs (167 feet of fintube, 170 degree water). From these and various permutations I get from these numbers, then multiplied by the ASHRAE 1.4% fudge factor, I can't see being able to use more than 120k BTUs.
I'll ask the repair guy to to a heat loss calc, but I still don't seem to have more than about 100k worth of baseboard output, and the house stays warm unless it gets down to -10 or so, then the temp goes into the low 60s inside. Not really a problem, and maybe difficult to add more baseboard. Another way-crazy guesstimate: One night it was 5 degrees outside (design temp for my area), thermostats at 65, and the boiler cycled on for about 8 minutes, off for about 8 minutes for a couple of hours. Of course the circulator (just one) was running sometimes when the boiler was off, so it was still heating, but I guess you could infer that very roughly half of the 168k capacity was needed (or useable) since it was running half the time.
So...smaller boiler? It seems to match what many of you have said about most boilers being oversized (however, the 45 BTU per SF method gets me to 186k...). And the big debate - CI or mod con? I can see it not condensing much of the time, but I would think the modulation would be a big help, especially with that many zones.
Thanks in advance for your help. I learned a lot on here.
So I'd like to share what I've learned on here and see what you think.
Boiler is 198k in / 168k DOE out Burnham Series 2, 1999 build date. 4100 sf house, 2 levels, 5 zones + sidearm for DHW. All baseboard fintube. I've used Loadcalc many times for AC sizing in Texas, but didn't attempt it here (southern Colorado) because of so many different window sizes, wall exposures, ceiling heights, many many windows, etc. So I used a couple of "guesstimate" methods from here. From the propane use / highest bill calculation, my biggest load was around 84k BTUs / hr. From the feet-of-baseboard calc, if I use 550 BTU output per foot of fin tube, I get about 92K BTUs (167 feet of fintube, 170 degree water). From these and various permutations I get from these numbers, then multiplied by the ASHRAE 1.4% fudge factor, I can't see being able to use more than 120k BTUs.
I'll ask the repair guy to to a heat loss calc, but I still don't seem to have more than about 100k worth of baseboard output, and the house stays warm unless it gets down to -10 or so, then the temp goes into the low 60s inside. Not really a problem, and maybe difficult to add more baseboard. Another way-crazy guesstimate: One night it was 5 degrees outside (design temp for my area), thermostats at 65, and the boiler cycled on for about 8 minutes, off for about 8 minutes for a couple of hours. Of course the circulator (just one) was running sometimes when the boiler was off, so it was still heating, but I guess you could infer that very roughly half of the 168k capacity was needed (or useable) since it was running half the time.
So...smaller boiler? It seems to match what many of you have said about most boilers being oversized (however, the 45 BTU per SF method gets me to 186k...). And the big debate - CI or mod con? I can see it not condensing much of the time, but I would think the modulation would be a big help, especially with that many zones.
Thanks in advance for your help. I learned a lot on here.
