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Re: Are mod-con high efficiency boilers false economy Vs traditional cast iron over a longer time frame?
I'm not a pro, just a semi- informed homeowner, so I'm not going to try to influence you either way. But I will ask some relevant questions and share my take on our heating system, which is quite similar to yours.
Question number one is how long you expect to live in this house. On one hand, you ask "would I be adding a lot more complexity and cost over the long run for short term gains in efficiency..." What do you define as "short term gains in efficiency?" If you're planning to live in the house another 30 years, that's *long* term gains in efficiency. And you seem to be taking the long view, because you talk about running the cost comparison over a 30-year period.
On the other hand, then you talk about "the least headaches, which is a big factor." I'm pretty sure you already know from your research which type of boiler is likely to give you "the least headaches" over 30 years.
I've gone through a similar evaluation cycle with our 4-unit 4800 sq ft condo building that I maintain in the Boston area. I've looked at converting our 100-year-old gravity converted system to ATW heat pumps, condensing boilers, etc. What I keep coming back to is the proven history of the 25-year-old cast iron Weil McLain boilers we run (2 of them). They've been bulletproof for 25 years and have survived periods of benign neglect, minimal maintenance, and occasional maltreatment (before I got here, of course.)
Every other alternative I've looked at is more expensive up front and will need more attention and is more likely to fail and need expensive parts, some of which may not be readily obtainable. In a communal building like this one where I may not always be around to fix things, reliability and simplicity are key.
So where I keep ending up is that it's not worth us trying to wring more efficiency out of our systems by converting to more expensive, more complex, more failure-prone systems. When we need a new boiler, it's going to be another cast iron 86%, probably another Weil McLain, but a smaller one to match our actual heat load.
YMMV. I'm sure you will hear good arguments for going the other route too.
Question number one is how long you expect to live in this house. On one hand, you ask "would I be adding a lot more complexity and cost over the long run for short term gains in efficiency..." What do you define as "short term gains in efficiency?" If you're planning to live in the house another 30 years, that's *long* term gains in efficiency. And you seem to be taking the long view, because you talk about running the cost comparison over a 30-year period.
On the other hand, then you talk about "the least headaches, which is a big factor." I'm pretty sure you already know from your research which type of boiler is likely to give you "the least headaches" over 30 years.
I've gone through a similar evaluation cycle with our 4-unit 4800 sq ft condo building that I maintain in the Boston area. I've looked at converting our 100-year-old gravity converted system to ATW heat pumps, condensing boilers, etc. What I keep coming back to is the proven history of the 25-year-old cast iron Weil McLain boilers we run (2 of them). They've been bulletproof for 25 years and have survived periods of benign neglect, minimal maintenance, and occasional maltreatment (before I got here, of course.)
Every other alternative I've looked at is more expensive up front and will need more attention and is more likely to fail and need expensive parts, some of which may not be readily obtainable. In a communal building like this one where I may not always be around to fix things, reliability and simplicity are key.
So where I keep ending up is that it's not worth us trying to wring more efficiency out of our systems by converting to more expensive, more complex, more failure-prone systems. When we need a new boiler, it's going to be another cast iron 86%, probably another Weil McLain, but a smaller one to match our actual heat load.
YMMV. I'm sure you will hear good arguments for going the other route too.
jesmed1
3
Re: Steam Main trap
That is a header or end of the main drip trap.
Believe it or not the correct way to size this trap is by calculating not the steam but the WEIGHT of the pipe valves and fittings in the steam line upstream of that trap. Then you figure the amount of water being condensed by heating those pipes valves and fittings up to steam temperature.
I have done this and find that in almost every system a 3/4" F&T (any brand) will take cere of this load
Believe it or not the correct way to size this trap is by calculating not the steam but the WEIGHT of the pipe valves and fittings in the steam line upstream of that trap. Then you figure the amount of water being condensed by heating those pipes valves and fittings up to steam temperature.
I have done this and find that in almost every system a 3/4" F&T (any brand) will take cere of this load
Re: Dear Reader
Don't know what to say. I attended about 4 seminars, have probably 6 or 7 books and have read countless articles and have been hanging out here for around 20 years I think.
Thank you, Dan. You had a profound effect on my career (for the better). So glad I found you and this site. I wish I had found it sooner I would have made fewer mistakes.
I traveled as far as a couple of hours to some of those seminars.
When I have trouble on a job one thing always sticks in my head. "Get inside the pipe" if you were steam or water what would you do? I always remember that. Thank you, Dan, for all you have done and continue to do.
Thank you, Dan. You had a profound effect on my career (for the better). So glad I found you and this site. I wish I had found it sooner I would have made fewer mistakes.
I traveled as far as a couple of hours to some of those seminars.
When I have trouble on a job one thing always sticks in my head. "Get inside the pipe" if you were steam or water what would you do? I always remember that. Thank you, Dan, for all you have done and continue to do.
Re: Minnesota Right to Repair Law
Apple has been criticized for various things over the years, some deserved, some less so, but currently, their self-repair program is rather unparalleled.
They will send you the tools to borrow, and the parts, with detailed instructions and you can have at it:
https://support.apple.com/self-service-repair
They will send you the tools to borrow, and the parts, with detailed instructions and you can have at it:
https://support.apple.com/self-service-repair
Re: Minnesota Right to Repair Law
Louis Rossman has a youtube channel that was mostly about repairing Apple computers, mostly MacBooks. He got very much into right to repair laws because Apple goes to great lengths to make sure no one but their techs can repairs their products, in order to boost profits. Often they refuse to repair older products to boost sales of newer products.
Apple has made it impossible to repair some products. E.g. put serial numbers in hard drives and memory so that if you replace one the computer cannot start. John Deere did things like that. The Onewheel electric skateboard makes it impossible to replace the battery as i recall. Auto companies want to make it impossible repair newer cars. He has gotten involved in lobbying some states. I recall Apple mostly put him out of business with their scheming.
https://www.youtube.com/@rossmanngroup/videos
John Deere issue
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSAPY5mYm3E
Apple has made it impossible to repair some products. E.g. put serial numbers in hard drives and memory so that if you replace one the computer cannot start. John Deere did things like that. The Onewheel electric skateboard makes it impossible to replace the battery as i recall. Auto companies want to make it impossible repair newer cars. He has gotten involved in lobbying some states. I recall Apple mostly put him out of business with their scheming.
https://www.youtube.com/@rossmanngroup/videos
John Deere issue
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSAPY5mYm3E
Re: Boiler with compression tank, want to add B&G Airtrol fitting.
The date code on that ATF-12 indicates that it was made in May of 1998, curios as to where you purchased it? Certainly not new and no warranty. That expansion tank, if no one has mentioned it, is not ASME, it is a standard non-code tank with no provision for a liquid level site glass. Looks to be about 15 or possibly 24 gallons. Piping cold water make up directly into the boiler is not a good idea because of possible thermal shock or even condensation of the combustion gases. Follow the Airtrol fitting installation instructions. Close the service valves on either side the pressure reducing valve (PRV) once the system is filled. Best piping practice is to have one on either side of the PRV and a bypass. Only open them if you have done work on the system and it need to be re-pressurized. Otherwise you could flood your basement if you develop a leak. System pressure will be the static height of the piping system measured from the PRV to the bottom of your top floor radiation plus about 4 PSI to maintain a positive pressure in your radiators.
nekdahl
2
Re: Need boiler recommendations
With two boilers, you can get two of different sizes. So smaller one handles cool temperatures, the larger handles colder temps, and combined handles the coldest temps.
An indirect is fine but marginal. If you have a new water heater that’s sufficient now, wait until that goes.
Re: Intermittent pilot ignition control - replacing cable/wires?
Hello @hurt_happens,
If I had it apart I would definitely freshen up all the relay(s) connections and the spark coil too. Possibly the 1/4" external connection terminals if they looked suspicious.
Easy and inexpensive repair if you can.
Poor solder connections are way more prevalent than you think. And that is how they often fail, good for years, then intermittent, then total failure. Age does not make them better. Vibration and thermal cycling does not help either. Inspect them all with magnification. Remove the old solder and re-flow with new solder. The solder connections of the pins that come out of the base of Relays are notorious for failures and not just with HVAC equipment.I also have a hard time understanding how soldering points could be the cause, since it worked for so long and is now only working intermittently.
If I had it apart I would definitely freshen up all the relay(s) connections and the spark coil too. Possibly the 1/4" external connection terminals if they looked suspicious.
Easy and inexpensive repair if you can.
109A_5
1
Re: Tie two programmable thermostats in parallel to tie two heat zones together
Eric, your are correct as it relates to a sensor for the low loss header - by 100E I am referring to the 100 family of boilers. E indicates the current control platform - there are (6) boilers in 100E family (2 Kombis (KE) and 4 Heat Boilers (HE). The 100 is Viessmann's "base" model for wall hung modulating condensing boilers. I hate that term because the 100E family does a lot; that being said, the 200E does more (and you pay more for it...)
Your thought process is good, but the value of zoning is just that. If your goal is to prevent the boiler from tripping the high limit (and that's a good goal - this should not be a regular event) I would go to weather compensated operation: The boiler will have to be recommissioned (not a difficult process) and you'll need the outdoor sensor install (it comes with the boiler) Make sure it is installed on the North or North West wall. Be sure it's away from things like dryer vents, etc (anything that can skew it's accurate temperature sensing). Set a curve with a high limit under 180 (the curves are adjustable so you can fine tune as you go). Check out Viessmann North America YouTube and search for heating curves - you'll find some well done short videos.
I believe you posted a picture on another thread - it's a very nice job. The pipe work is clean and well done. That being said, I think the boiler is oversized. From the picture, there are 3 3/4" loops on the heating side - 199,000 btus is a lot to unload into that system (The only way to know for sure is an accurate heatloss). One of the features of the 100E is the ability to derate the boiler on the heating side; I have mixed feelings on this - the boiler should be sized by way of the heatloss; but look at your Installation and Service Manual page 63 - System Configuration/Boiler Address 596.0. The proper derate would of course be based on an accurate heatloss, which would have made this suggestion unnecessary. It's a way to get a little closer to a load match.
Your thought process is good, but the value of zoning is just that. If your goal is to prevent the boiler from tripping the high limit (and that's a good goal - this should not be a regular event) I would go to weather compensated operation: The boiler will have to be recommissioned (not a difficult process) and you'll need the outdoor sensor install (it comes with the boiler) Make sure it is installed on the North or North West wall. Be sure it's away from things like dryer vents, etc (anything that can skew it's accurate temperature sensing). Set a curve with a high limit under 180 (the curves are adjustable so you can fine tune as you go). Check out Viessmann North America YouTube and search for heating curves - you'll find some well done short videos.
I believe you posted a picture on another thread - it's a very nice job. The pipe work is clean and well done. That being said, I think the boiler is oversized. From the picture, there are 3 3/4" loops on the heating side - 199,000 btus is a lot to unload into that system (The only way to know for sure is an accurate heatloss). One of the features of the 100E is the ability to derate the boiler on the heating side; I have mixed feelings on this - the boiler should be sized by way of the heatloss; but look at your Installation and Service Manual page 63 - System Configuration/Boiler Address 596.0. The proper derate would of course be based on an accurate heatloss, which would have made this suggestion unnecessary. It's a way to get a little closer to a load match.
Redbaran
1