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Re: Gorton air vent quality
As I promised February 5, I would get back to you all on this vent issue. I tested 32 Gorton radiator vents that were all purchased in the last 5 months mostly from Supply House and 1/4 from others. These vents all failed as soon as they were installed. There may be others that were installed that failed that I was not told of. Here are the results:
1] G#5 had 3 pcs failed all would not close or remain closed at case temperature 160F
2] G#6 had 26 pcs failed 24 would not close at case temperature 160F, Two would not pass air
3] GC had 1pcs that would not close or remain closed at case temperature of 160F
4] GD had 2 pcs that would not close or remain closed at case temperature of 160F
Please note: Some of the vents were damaged during opening so that they could not be repaired. I had to make a test jig so that the vents could be opened and resealed without damage or burning my fingers.
Please note: If a radiator vent does not close before 160F, it is letting more steam into the radiator than the person designing the system would want.
I also tested 12 Hoffman #40 vents out of the box. Here are the results:
1] One vent failed to close completely ate over 180F
2] 11 pcs closed at a case temperature of around 140F
3] I noticed that there is a clanging sound made when the cartridge holding the alcohol mixture flashed
expanding the cartridge and forcing the pin to close the vent. In several cases this opening and closing
would occur one to several times a minute.
I also tested Gorton G#1 and G#2 mains vents. I will give a detailed account of this in another discussion
that I will open with pictures of the test setup I used and an explanation of vent characteristics and requirements.
1] G#5 had 3 pcs failed all would not close or remain closed at case temperature 160F
2] G#6 had 26 pcs failed 24 would not close at case temperature 160F, Two would not pass air
3] GC had 1pcs that would not close or remain closed at case temperature of 160F
4] GD had 2 pcs that would not close or remain closed at case temperature of 160F
Please note: Some of the vents were damaged during opening so that they could not be repaired. I had to make a test jig so that the vents could be opened and resealed without damage or burning my fingers.
Please note: If a radiator vent does not close before 160F, it is letting more steam into the radiator than the person designing the system would want.
I also tested 12 Hoffman #40 vents out of the box. Here are the results:
1] One vent failed to close completely ate over 180F
2] 11 pcs closed at a case temperature of around 140F
3] I noticed that there is a clanging sound made when the cartridge holding the alcohol mixture flashed
expanding the cartridge and forcing the pin to close the vent. In several cases this opening and closing
would occur one to several times a minute.
I also tested Gorton G#1 and G#2 mains vents. I will give a detailed account of this in another discussion
that I will open with pictures of the test setup I used and an explanation of vent characteristics and requirements.
Re: Not all Old Timers took pride in their work
I am not a Vet but have utmost respect for all of those that served. I think I understand your point about those that served in WWII, I would go as far to say that the work done by MOST people from that era did some of the best work we will ever see.
It's funny.
My house was built in the 1860s. Some additions were done in the late 1800s, also good work.
All of the bad stuff was done in the 30s-50s.
And I'm not exaggerating, literally all of the bad stuff. Flat roof, cutting floor joists, putting pipes in outside walls. Copper pipes run 16 feet with no supports.
Everything before a point, including plumbing was done reasonably well. After a point, absolute garbage. No idea if it's because the house changed hands etc, but what I do know the work is terrible.
Actually, there was also some bad work done in the 80s but it didn't stand out as much as the older stuff to me.
ChrisJ
1
Re: Some Frank Prox Company Boilers
@Danny Scully yeah that’s not going to happen.
@hot_rod correct right and left nipples.
@Mad Dog_2 from my guess they are about 100 years but they are in a school that was built in 1950s, possibly new old stock back then.
@EBEBRATT-Ed I am not sure what power flame model burner they are.
We wouldn’t be re using them we purposed to switch over to 800,000 btus modcons. The mechanical room is 100% redundancy.
@Mad Dog_2 from my guess they are about 100 years but they are in a school that was built in 1950s, possibly new old stock back then.
@EBEBRATT-Ed I am not sure what power flame model burner they are.
We wouldn’t be re using them we purposed to switch over to 800,000 btus modcons. The mechanical room is 100% redundancy.
EzzyT
1
Re: Venting - What's code?
$1k? Ouch.Mad Dog_2 said:Last I checked absolutely not. NYS neither. That being said, I'm just about to lay out $1000 bucks for all new $2024 Code books. Mad Dog 🐕
By the way, I did come across this, so not everything goes in Jersey.
ChrisJ
3
Re: Venting - What's code?
This would be my preference if building a house and it fit the design. I've had to replace the vent pipe flashing on every house I've owned due to leaks. In the current house I added a 2nd rubber boot over the permanent boot to protect it from UV damage. Still going strong after 10 years.In NJ yes.DJD775 said:The less roof penetrative the better. Mad Dog 🐕I agree on minimizing the amount of roof penetrations. Does code allow the vent to come out the side of the house close to the roof line and extend up beyond the roof?
DJD775
1
Mod/con boiler flat panel radiators questions
Hello
After much deliberation, I will be replacing my poorly functioning heating and cooling systems at the same time as getting a kitchen addition to my home. Currently have oil steam boiler with cast iron radiators and a high velocity spacepak system for cooling. Home is about 100 years old but has had spray foam put in the walls and closed foam in the attic and double pane windows. A blower door test with thermal imaging was performed and exposed some areas bringing in cold air. A “short basement” type crawl space will get close cell spray foamed and the house will get some air sealing improvements. Also the home is climate 4A lower Hudson valley NY
The current plan is to remove everything (cast iron boiler, steam pipes, radiators, spacepak air handler, outdoor condenser, duct work. The second floor will get a ducted Mitsubishi hyper heat pump (the bedrooms are small and we really need to reclaim the radiator space for beds and what not). The first floor will get 3 ductless units for cooling and shoulder season heating. There will be a gas conversion and new has boiler for hydronic heating during winter. New pex lines, manifold, etc. The new 400 or so square foot kitchen will have radiant flooring under porcelain tile. This is where I need advice. I am deciding between cast iron radiators or modern flat panel radiators for the remaining first floor to replace all the steam radiators. This decision would also help with the decision to have a cast iron boiler or mod con boiler. I do like the idea of lower temp radiators so I could use a mod con boiler and get greater gas efficiency. Also it would allow me one day to convert to an air to water heat pump when they are more mainstream. If I went with cast iron radiator and cast iron boiler and had my temps at 160-180 i could never reuse it with heat pump. I know cast iron radiators would be easier to be more comfortable and that’s why I’m trying to make my home higher performing with insulation and air sealing to allow lower temp radiators to be a viable option in my old home.
After much deliberation, I will be replacing my poorly functioning heating and cooling systems at the same time as getting a kitchen addition to my home. Currently have oil steam boiler with cast iron radiators and a high velocity spacepak system for cooling. Home is about 100 years old but has had spray foam put in the walls and closed foam in the attic and double pane windows. A blower door test with thermal imaging was performed and exposed some areas bringing in cold air. A “short basement” type crawl space will get close cell spray foamed and the house will get some air sealing improvements. Also the home is climate 4A lower Hudson valley NY
The current plan is to remove everything (cast iron boiler, steam pipes, radiators, spacepak air handler, outdoor condenser, duct work. The second floor will get a ducted Mitsubishi hyper heat pump (the bedrooms are small and we really need to reclaim the radiator space for beds and what not). The first floor will get 3 ductless units for cooling and shoulder season heating. There will be a gas conversion and new has boiler for hydronic heating during winter. New pex lines, manifold, etc. The new 400 or so square foot kitchen will have radiant flooring under porcelain tile. This is where I need advice. I am deciding between cast iron radiators or modern flat panel radiators for the remaining first floor to replace all the steam radiators. This decision would also help with the decision to have a cast iron boiler or mod con boiler. I do like the idea of lower temp radiators so I could use a mod con boiler and get greater gas efficiency. Also it would allow me one day to convert to an air to water heat pump when they are more mainstream. If I went with cast iron radiator and cast iron boiler and had my temps at 160-180 i could never reuse it with heat pump. I know cast iron radiators would be easier to be more comfortable and that’s why I’m trying to make my home higher performing with insulation and air sealing to allow lower temp radiators to be a viable option in my old home.
What would you all do?!
bombaloo
1
Re: Do I need to have this redone? Should I? Attic Installation LG Low Static Ducted Heat Pump
is that .7 wc or .07. That is going to make a huge difference
pedmec
1
Re: Do I need to have this redone? Should I? Attic Installation LG Low Static Ducted Heat Pump
And there Wrong!
Just updating. They came back today and this is what they found. .29 on the supply. .7 on the return combined .36 in wg.
Tech insisted that combined equals .22 (29-7) not .36 (29+7). I insisted that for "Maximum External Static Pressure" the relevant number is .36 in wg. He called someone else who confirmed his POV but he is going to ask someone else and look into it further. Furthermore, he doesn't think the external static pressure matters. He says the air flow CFMs are good and that is what they and thousands of people design around, not static pressure. I am working on this still... I just wanted to give an update for people who have been helping me. I am still working on this...
https://calcerts.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/360051851293-Total-External-Static-Pressure-07-15-2020
https://hvacrschool.com/total-external-static-pressure-tesp-a-basic-review/
pecmsg
2
Re: Need Help Understanding Dielectrics
Hi, There is a lot to this, but a simple answer is that oxygen plays a big role in making the corrosion/rusting happen. In the closed boiler system, there is little oxygen. In the open domestic hot water system, there is lots of oxygen. My preferred way to hook up a water heater is to use a plastic lined nipple at the tank and then a corrugated stainless or copper flex connector above that. I only use flexes that have true dielectrics built into the ends. The true dielectrics look like the attached photo, with plastic between the flex line metal and the nut. 
This approach puts distance between different metals and does not expose any poorly protected steel to the water. I avoid using standard steel dielectric unions as they often cause trouble down the line.
Yours, Larry
This approach puts distance between different metals and does not expose any poorly protected steel to the water. I avoid using standard steel dielectric unions as they often cause trouble down the line. Yours, Larry
Re: Importance of outdoor temp sensor for reset on Viessmann Vitodens B1KE-120 ?
Tekmar, now a Watts company pioneered outdoor reset controls, sold thousands. Now most boilers have this option built in
Their essays are still some of the best at explaining reset functions
Their essays are still some of the best at explaining reset functions
hot_rod
2