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Best Of
Boiler Piping
I'm going to start from the beginning so please bear with me. Three years back my wife and I purchased an old Masonic Temple which had been partially converted to offices. The existing steam system was one of the scarrier things I have witnessed but that is another story. One of the contingencies was that the former owner install a new boiler system. I have 40 years in the trades as a carpenter and 3 years of hard knocks and learning about steam the hard way. When we went through owner training I asked about all the water hammer in the distribution header and I was told that this is normal for steam (the trainer was the owner of the installing company). As a wood tick who was I to argue with the expert. The pressurtrol was set at 10 lbs and some rooms were not getting heat. I consulted with another contractor and they said that we could try turning up the pressure a little (nothing about venting). The first year we went around and fixed leaks in the system but it didn't help with the rooms that were under heating. It should of dawned on me that the radiators that were leaking the most were also getting hottest, it was a venting problem not pressure. Being tired of the "Experts advice" I started to do some research myself and I ran on to the Wall. It didn't take much reading to find out that this is the place where the true Steam Experts hang out. The first thing I did was purchase Dan Holohan's book The Lost Art of Steam Heating (I wish I had it long ago).
After reading for about 2 hours I went over and turned down the Pressuretrol to 1.5 lbs. and it's a miricale suddenly there's heat to all the rooms. We had some problems with overheating and we installed the Danfoss TRV,s on the 2nd and 3rd Floor 1-pipe system. And the complaints are gone (mostly).
After reading Dan's book further I realized that the near boiler piping needs work. We still have water hammer in the distribution header, although it has been reduced considerably. Now's where the experts come in. The existing header is constructed as follows.
*Header constructed of 6" pipe (see pics)
* 3" takeoff to Second Floor radiators (1-pipe system), 2" takeoff to 1st Floor North zone and 1st Floor South zone (2-pipe system).
* All 3 zones have a motorized zone valve. I know that this isn't Ideal; but I don't know how to get away from this. The tenants in the offices are really particular and if the temperature varies by a couple of degrees I'm getting a phone call.
* The existing header doesn't provide a way for the condensate to get out other than fall back into the boiler with some collisions into the steam along the way.
* The cross header is welded and does not have swing or slip joints (see pics). I'm not sure if we should cut the elbow and tees out, rotate them 90 degrees and add elbows to allow for expansion? I think that the vertical leg would rotate on the unions. Are we flirting with disaster with the current piping configuration? Thoughts?
* There are 2 Dunkirk D248-400 boilers that are piped together before they go into the distribution header. Based on Mr. Holohan's book my thought is to seperate them and put them into the header individually(see sketch). We removed radiators to do some apartment build outs and no longer run the 2 boilers in tandem (the apartments are on seperate forced air systems). When we were running both boilers, one boiler would shut down and it would suck the water out of the other causing excess makeup water to flood the system and blow the excess out of the condensate pump reservoir. We have 875 sq. ft. of EDR left in the building heating 6,500 sq ft with the average ceiling height at 9' With the latest improvements the building heat is staying at the set thermostat temperature even on sub zero days.
* As currently constructed the 2 First Floor zones are on the same 2" takeoff. Would it be better to have 2 seperate takeoffs? The zone valves are located about 2' after the header and then are reduced to 1 1/2" after the zone valve. If we do 2 takeoffs for the Floor should we use 1 1/2" or 2" from the header to the zone valve?
* Should we install a vent to remove the air from the distribution header?
* Is the attached sketch for the new header on the right path to remove water hammer and provide dry steam? I truly appreciate all of the advice I get from all of you as I have gained more knowledge reading information on this site and Mr. Holohans book than by talking to the local "experts". I've tried to explain this to the best of my very limited knowledge hopefully there is enough information that you folks can make some sense of it all. THANK YOU All.
After reading for about 2 hours I went over and turned down the Pressuretrol to 1.5 lbs. and it's a miricale suddenly there's heat to all the rooms. We had some problems with overheating and we installed the Danfoss TRV,s on the 2nd and 3rd Floor 1-pipe system. And the complaints are gone (mostly).
After reading Dan's book further I realized that the near boiler piping needs work. We still have water hammer in the distribution header, although it has been reduced considerably. Now's where the experts come in. The existing header is constructed as follows.
*Header constructed of 6" pipe (see pics)
* 3" takeoff to Second Floor radiators (1-pipe system), 2" takeoff to 1st Floor North zone and 1st Floor South zone (2-pipe system).
* All 3 zones have a motorized zone valve. I know that this isn't Ideal; but I don't know how to get away from this. The tenants in the offices are really particular and if the temperature varies by a couple of degrees I'm getting a phone call.
* The existing header doesn't provide a way for the condensate to get out other than fall back into the boiler with some collisions into the steam along the way.
* The cross header is welded and does not have swing or slip joints (see pics). I'm not sure if we should cut the elbow and tees out, rotate them 90 degrees and add elbows to allow for expansion? I think that the vertical leg would rotate on the unions. Are we flirting with disaster with the current piping configuration? Thoughts?
* There are 2 Dunkirk D248-400 boilers that are piped together before they go into the distribution header. Based on Mr. Holohan's book my thought is to seperate them and put them into the header individually(see sketch). We removed radiators to do some apartment build outs and no longer run the 2 boilers in tandem (the apartments are on seperate forced air systems). When we were running both boilers, one boiler would shut down and it would suck the water out of the other causing excess makeup water to flood the system and blow the excess out of the condensate pump reservoir. We have 875 sq. ft. of EDR left in the building heating 6,500 sq ft with the average ceiling height at 9' With the latest improvements the building heat is staying at the set thermostat temperature even on sub zero days.
* As currently constructed the 2 First Floor zones are on the same 2" takeoff. Would it be better to have 2 seperate takeoffs? The zone valves are located about 2' after the header and then are reduced to 1 1/2" after the zone valve. If we do 2 takeoffs for the Floor should we use 1 1/2" or 2" from the header to the zone valve?
* Should we install a vent to remove the air from the distribution header?
* Is the attached sketch for the new header on the right path to remove water hammer and provide dry steam? I truly appreciate all of the advice I get from all of you as I have gained more knowledge reading information on this site and Mr. Holohans book than by talking to the local "experts". I've tried to explain this to the best of my very limited knowledge hopefully there is enough information that you folks can make some sense of it all. THANK YOU All.
Re: Radiator Average Water Temperatures
I have noticed, when sizing fin-tube radiators, that manufacturers of high efficiency products provide ratings for average water temperatures (AWT) down to 90F. Other manufacturers of standard radiators provide correction factors down to the same number. I am a bit skeptical of a radiator operating effectively at these low temperatures especially at our design temperatures of -13F here in the North. The convection off these radiators has to counteract the cold air spilling off a window and I would think you would not want to go below 130F as an AWT. Does anybody know where there is some independent technical information on performance of baseboard vs AWT? Does anyone have experience with going low with AWTs - how low can you go? This would be for a "code" building, not a super insulated - triple glazed project. Thanks CamIf you are bent on low low temperature fin tube operation , one option is to force the convection.
Jaga has a product that matches to some of their fin tube offering that adds small microprocessor driven fans. They show performance #s down to 30C.
An interesting company with a unique niche product.
hot_rod
0
Re: lochinvar noble
If we ever become empty nesters the Vitodens 222-F would be my Ferrari of choice. 
Re: Buffer tank or no buffer tank
It makes no sense to zone smaller than the minimum firing rate of a mod/con. At some point, it has to become cheaper to heat a single bathroom, say, with electric, rather than adding a buffer to run the boiler longer at higher btu than is needed, for longer than would be needed, in the name of efficiency. There has to be a limit to the insanity.
2
Re: Taco VDT Pump
I was going to use one
on a wood boiler connection to its thermal storage. After getting cost on both . THE VDT verses a pump and Tekmar 157. The Tekmar was by far more cost effective.
on a wood boiler connection to its thermal storage. After getting cost on both . THE VDT verses a pump and Tekmar 157. The Tekmar was by far more cost effective.
TonyS
0
Re: Flue Damper
Yeah you're missing the weight. You'll need to get the weight (look around on the floor, under the boiler and in the pipe), and you should have the tech do a complete combustion test-run unit for 10+minutes, set draft, adjust for true zero smoke.Agreed.
Even once he finds the weight the proper draft needs to be set and the burner should be setup using a combustion analyzer.
ChrisJ
0
Re: Nitric or Carbonic acid in condensate?
Thank you JH for the clarification and addt'l info!
Thank you NY_Rob for your personal example and vital info!
And thanks to hydro_newbie and JUGHNE as well for your input! I like the idea of installing a sacrificial copper pipe so you can easily tell if the neutralizer is working.
You guys are GREAT!
The way you answer questions and provide detailed and concise answers, backed by experience and tremendous knowledge is so incredibly valuable!
I feel like I learn so much with each post.
Wishing you all the BEST!
Thank you NY_Rob for your personal example and vital info!
And thanks to hydro_newbie and JUGHNE as well for your input! I like the idea of installing a sacrificial copper pipe so you can easily tell if the neutralizer is working.
You guys are GREAT!
The way you answer questions and provide detailed and concise answers, backed by experience and tremendous knowledge is so incredibly valuable!
I feel like I learn so much with each post.
Wishing you all the BEST!
Re: Why do people rip out boilers and radiators?
They look strangely familiar.Yeah, they're in the meme thread.
But they're just as good the second time around.
ChrisJ
2
Re: Hot Rod, Hydraulic separator
Officially that is a straight threats and should be sealed with a gasket fitting. Actually a 1/2 npt threads into it, use Loctite or teflon tape and it seals fine. Just tried all these 1/2 npt options on the bench.
How about that vintage Heatway gauge!
We did come up with this NA10425 gauge well for a Viessmann boiler customer that wanted to use one or our I-Solar control sensors into the boiler. It allows a 6 mm sensor to slide in and capture with the rubber "keeper" It is a straight thread, gasket fitting.
6 mm is about 1/4" and is a typical sensor size on most mod cons, or any control of European origin.
How about that vintage Heatway gauge!
We did come up with this NA10425 gauge well for a Viessmann boiler customer that wanted to use one or our I-Solar control sensors into the boiler. It allows a 6 mm sensor to slide in and capture with the rubber "keeper" It is a straight thread, gasket fitting.
6 mm is about 1/4" and is a typical sensor size on most mod cons, or any control of European origin.
hot_rod
0
Re: Steam radiator hammer isolated to one radiator - what's next?
Are you sure he valve on that radiator is fully open? Could it have failed in such a way as to partly block the inlet pipe? It wouldn't be the first time...
