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Time to go all electric?

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Comments

  • JakeCK
    JakeCK Member Posts: 1,356
    I didn't even calculate my electric costs at the preferred rate. so that would be icing on the cake. But I wouldn't keep the gas service at all. I would have to keep a gasoline/propane generator. I can get about 2 days of run time with the propane cylinders I have between the rv and gas grills.
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 23,168
    There isa common flaw which shows up in this type of thread -- and there are several of them. The problem is very simple: people extrapolating from their personal experience in their personal location with their personal preferences to everyone else.

    Just examine what you write, and make very sure you are not doing that.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    JakeCKfentoncSolid_Fuel_Man
  • JakeCK
    JakeCK Member Posts: 1,356

    There isa common flaw which shows up in this type of thread -- and there are several of them. The problem is very simple: people extrapolating from their personal experience in their personal location with their personal preferences to everyone else.

    Just examine what you write, and make very sure you are not doing that.

    Always good advice. Kind of goes along with walking a mile a person shoes doesn't it?

    Did you see any mistakes in the math that I ran?

  • jumper
    jumper Member Posts: 2,228

    @meerkat Agreed, that's expensive. The hope would be that as more electricity is used the delivery rate falls significantly. I pay like 1/3rd that as more electricity is used per capita here in MD. I used 40% more electricity in May but paid 25% less in total.

    Pet peeve of mine is the tier business, both gas & electric. Delivery charges per unit energy decrease in a rational world. Also unfair that price increases when women who daily wash hair visit.

    I've given up economising. Gas works better for DHW; dryer; & cooking. So that is my preference. For heating I like those ceiling height electric radiators with individual room thermostats. Cozy bathroom and cool bedroom. Wonder about timer for bedroom to awaken in warmer room.

    Here's a short cut for arithmetic. Why do locomotives use Diesel to generate electricity instead of pulling a few battery cars?
  • JakeCK
    JakeCK Member Posts: 1,356
    edited June 2022
    jumper said:


    Here's a short cut for arithmetic. Why do locomotives use Diesel to generate electricity instead of pulling a few battery cars?

    Because battery technology isn't up to the job, yet?

    But unless my house is rolling down the tracks, I don't need a battery.

    Edit:
    At the beginning of the 20th century we had interurban electric street cars all across the country. No body questioned the utility of them at the time. But then the automotive and oil industry conspired to eliminate that threat.

  • Sal Santamaura
    Sal Santamaura Member Posts: 529
    We own land in New Hampshire and might build a home on it, then move there. It would be served by the New Hampshire Electric Cooperative. Today's local NH newspaper included an article that reported the Co-op effective billing rate (for a "typical 500 kWh per month residential customer) will increase from 17 cents per kWh today to 25 cents per kWh on August first. The article attributed this increase to "...the skyrocketing cost of natural gas, used to make electricity and global supply issues exacerbated by the Russian war in Ukraine."

    Bottom line: for the foreseeable future, price of grid-delivered electricity will be linked to the price of natural gas. Decisions about whether to switch ought be made on other considerations.
    pecmsg
  • Hot_water_fan
    Hot_water_fan Member Posts: 1,823
    Bottom line: for the foreseeable future, price of grid-delivered electricity will be linked to the price of natural gas. Decisions about whether to switch ought be made on other considerations.


    I agree other considerations are important. However, while electricity prices are linked to natural gas prices, since combined cycle turbines are so efficient, a heat pump powered by a CC will use less gas per MMBtu of heat.
  • JakeCK
    JakeCK Member Posts: 1,356

    We own land in New Hampshire and might build a home on it, then move there. It would be served by the New Hampshire Electric Cooperative. Today's local NH newspaper included an article that reported the Co-op effective billing rate (for a "typical 500 kWh per month residential customer) will increase from 17 cents per kWh today to 25 cents per kWh on August first. The article attributed this increase to "...the skyrocketing cost of natural gas, used to make electricity and global supply issues exacerbated by the Russian war in Ukraine."

    Bottom line: for the foreseeable future, price of grid-delivered electricity will be linked to the price of natural gas. Decisions about whether to switch ought be made on other considerations.

    Other consideration such as venting issues with my current boiler? See my other thread about that. Getting rid of the boiler altogether would eliminate that issue.

    https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1702476
  • Sal Santamaura
    Sal Santamaura Member Posts: 529
    edited June 2022

    Bottom line: for the foreseeable future, price of grid-delivered electricity will be linked to the price of natural gas. Decisions about whether to switch ought be made on other considerations.

    I agree other considerations are important. However, while electricity prices are linked to natural gas prices, since combined cycle turbines are so efficient, a heat pump powered by a CC will use less gas per MMBtu of heat.
    Whether electrical utilities can and/or will convert a significant portion of their generating capacity to combined cycle turbines in "the foreseeable future" is questionable. Individual consumer decisions about which fuel to use in their homes will be based on rates they must pay, which integrate all a utility's generator types and costs.
    JakeCK said:

    Other consideration such as venting issues with my current boiler? See my other thread about that. Getting rid of the boiler altogether would eliminate that issue.

    https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1702476

    Yes, that's one of the many other factors consumers ought consider.
  • Hot_water_fan
    Hot_water_fan Member Posts: 1,823
    Whether electrical utilities can and/or will convert a significant portion of their generating capacity to combined cycle turbines in "the foreseeable future" is questionable. Individual consumer decisions about which fuel to use in their homes will be based on rates they must pay, which integrate all a utility's generator types and costs.


    Almost all electricity generated by gas comes from combined cycles. The future is now!
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,588

    Whether electrical utilities can and/or will convert a significant portion of their generating capacity to combined cycle turbines in "the foreseeable future" is questionable. Individual consumer decisions about which fuel to use in their homes will be based on rates they must pay, which integrate all a utility's generator types and costs.


    Almost all electricity generated by gas comes from combined cycles. The future is now!
    Are you paid by someone to push this stuff?
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Hot_water_fan
    Hot_water_fan Member Posts: 1,823
    @ChrisJ ha who would pay? and "Push"?
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,588
    JakeCK said:

    We own land in New Hampshire and might build a home on it, then move there. It would be served by the New Hampshire Electric Cooperative. Today's local NH newspaper included an article that reported the Co-op effective billing rate (for a "typical 500 kWh per month residential customer) will increase from 17 cents per kWh today to 25 cents per kWh on August first. The article attributed this increase to "...the skyrocketing cost of natural gas, used to make electricity and global supply issues exacerbated by the Russian war in Ukraine."

    Bottom line: for the foreseeable future, price of grid-delivered electricity will be linked to the price of natural gas. Decisions about whether to switch ought be made on other considerations.

    Other consideration such as venting issues with my current boiler? See my other thread about that. Getting rid of the boiler altogether would eliminate that issue.

    https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1702476
    I saw that thread...
    I'm not sold on efflorescence on brick as having to be from combustion gases.

    efflorescence happens all of the time on masonry not just from flue gases condensing.

    Eh, whatever you feel is best go for it.
    Just don't believe everything you read online, including what I say.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,588

    @ChrisJ ha who would pay? and "Push"?

    Nice, answering a question with a question.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 23,168
    Actually, @JakeCK , battery powered railroad motors are in use. Not all that many, and mostly if not all in California. They are used for switching duties at the ports and some yards in air quality non-attainment areas. The problem is a combination of limited horsepower (they are typically 1500 hp units) and, more, limited energy storage. That's OK in a yard -- they can trundle around for an entire 8 hour shift, most of it nowhere near peak power, and then recharge during the next shift (although that means the railroad has to field 2 engines for every job rather than one -- a not inconsiderable capital expense) -- but a while a road engine will need to be refueled typically at each crew change, that only takes 15 minutes or so, and the 3,000 horsepower (or more) road unit is good for another four or five hundred miles, and depending on the division, most of it at 75% power (run 6) or more.

    You also mentioned interrurbans -- and yes, at one time they were all over the place. But with rare exceptions they never were used for freight, and even when they were they couldn't handle more than a few cars at a time (there is at least one, in Iowa, which still handles a limited amount of freight). Not that heavy catenary electric can't be done -- besides the Pennsylvania (northeast corridor) which people think of, there was some limited electrification on the New York Central and New Haven, and major electrification schemes on the Great Northern, Milwaukee, and Virginian which were very successful -- but maintenance and capital investment nightmares.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    Hot_water_fan
  • Hot_water_fan
    Hot_water_fan Member Posts: 1,823
    @ChrisJ I'm not arguing with you or being evasive. I'm not paid by anyone. Let's be civil and move on.
  • JakeCK
    JakeCK Member Posts: 1,356
    ChrisJ said:



    I saw that thread...
    I'm not sold on efflorescence on brick as having to be from combustion gases.

    efflorescence happens all of the time on masonry not just from flue gases condensing.

    Eh, whatever you feel is best go for it.
    Just don't believe everything you read online, including what I say.

    Well, it is only on the side of the chimney that has the flue for the boiler. The other side with the fireplace flue is clean and dry.
  • Solid_Fuel_Man
    Solid_Fuel_Man Member Posts: 2,646
    JakeCK said:
    @ChrisJ what makes it a fad? Heat pumps are mature, widespread technology. It’s popular now because they can be cheaper to operate and are often significantly cleaner. A win win yeah? 
    "Going all electric" is a fad right now just like pounding "efficiency" into people's minds like it's the only thing important.
    I don't man, this electric fad has been going strong for over a century now. And energy efficiency since the 70's when oil embargo hit. But I'm sure this fab will pass real soon, once all the dino fuel is used up.
    And who is telling you the "Dino fuel" is going to run out?

    All electric is like saying we should use hydraulic powered tools. 

    What is the prime mover? 

    Like hydraulics, or hydronics, are only a  medium to move power. 

    The rare earth stuff in Li Ion batteries and in your solar panels are also finite. 

    No free lunch. 

    Serving Northern Maine HVAC & Controls. I burn wood, it smells good!
  • Solid_Fuel_Man
    Solid_Fuel_Man Member Posts: 2,646
    edited June 2022
    Economics drive most things. Just like the 1970s when "all electric" homes were the future. Nuke power plants and cheap electricity. That would actually work. 

    If we went all electric, homes and cars, the grid would have to be completly reworked. And that will cost a lot. Guess who pays for those upgrades. 

    So as consumption goes up, the price won't go down as with most other things. 

    Locally in Maine our coat of electric went up this year. 40% increase I think. It is due to NG and the increased use of renewables. To offset the volatility of renewables more NG is use to fill the valleys. We tore down 2 biomass plants and now have virtually no baseload left. All that money went to solar and the biomass couldn't compete with solar incentives. Now all the slash and wood waste is left to rot.... 

    Most of the diesels left over from the 50s as standby have been decommissioned due to being too dirty. 

    As an electrician it keeps me very busy because we now have very frequent power outages. Never used to when we had local generation. I've put in so many standby generators and generator hookups it isn't funny. 

    Ironically, I just bought a used Diesel genset that is pre-emissions so it will actually start when it is cold. 
    Serving Northern Maine HVAC & Controls. I burn wood, it smells good!
  • fentonc
    fentonc Member Posts: 235
    @Solid_Fuel_Man - are you guys really having lots of power outages due to load-shedding? Or are they due to weather/storm-related damage? People get hung up on 'baseload' a lot, but if you have power plants that can flexibly ramp up/down fairly quickly, it seems fine to pair them with cheap (no fuel costs!) renewables when they're available. The primary advantage of electrification is that it decouples end-usage from a specific fuel source, so that power can be generated in whatever way is best at a given time rather than being solely dependent on a specific commodity. Sun when the sun is shining, wind when the wind is blowing, hydro when there's water, natural gas when needed.
    Solid_Fuel_Man
  • JakeCK
    JakeCK Member Posts: 1,356
    And who is telling you the "Dino fuel" is going to run out?

    All electric is like saying we should use hydraulic powered tools. 

    What is the prime mover? 

    Like hydraulics, or hydronics, are only a  medium to move power. 

    The rare earth stuff in Li Ion batteries and in your solar panels are also finite. 

    No free lunch. 

    Fossil fuels are a finite resource, at least as far as we're concerned. We're burning it far faster then it's being created. Sure it'll be replenished in a few 10's of millions of years but that isn't going to help anyone. Unless of course you want to develop carbon capture technology and reconstitute the carbon based fuels. But where's that energy coming from? 

    It's funny so many people turn their noise up to solar power. But everyone forgets all of the fuel we're burning was created from dead plants and animals that got their energy from... you guessed it, the sun🌞! 

    I wouldn't recommend hydraulics for all power tools but pneumatic tools are awesome. Once I upgrade the power out in the garage I'm going to get a big compressor in short order. Pneumatic tools are very versatile, just like electricity.

    And I don't get your point about it only being a medium.
    That is obvious. Carbon fuels, batteries, hydrogen, nuclear fuel are all examples of potential energy, where as pneumatic, hydraulics, electricity, etc are examples of kinetic energy. 

    My boiler can only use one form of energy as it sits right now. That is natural gas. It can not use solar, wind, nuclear, coal, oil, biomass, or any other form of energy. A heat pump uses electricity. This electricity can come from any of those or even all of them at the same time. 

    Rare earth metals can be recycled and my solar panels should see a life time of 25 years before they're considered EOL. But even then they should still deliver ~80% of their rated capacity. As long as they aren't damaged or malfunction. 

    And these free lunch comments are annoying and a bit denigrating. Of course I'm not expecting a 'free lunch'. I paid $35,000 cash on this solar system, it was far from free. And who knows how much it'll cost for an air to water heat pump. 

  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 23,168
    If I may -- I don't think I used the expression in this thread, but I have in the past -- when I use the phrase "no free lunch" I generally mean that every possible energy source has both benefits -- and problems. What I'm usually addressing when I use it, I'm hoping that folks will realize that. The problem with some energy sources -- solar PV being the poster child -- is that the downsides may be very well hidden. I'm just trying to get people to think about the whole show.

    I almost never use the phrase in connection with monetary considerations.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    Solid_Fuel_Man
  • Solid_Fuel_Man
    Solid_Fuel_Man Member Posts: 2,646
    There are 4 grids in the US and I am located in the smallest. Aroostook county Maine. We import almost all of our electricity from Canada. Only local generation left is a 5Mwatt low rise hydro dam. So out power has become increasingly problematic. A microcosm of central generation facilities. No load shedding here. Very rural. 

    My free lunch comment is just based on most people's perception of solar and wind. If electrification happens large scale then solar and wind will have to cover almost all of our free land. There are several solar farms here in Aroostook County most in the 1-3Mwatt range. All built on farmland which used to produce. 

    Hey I'd put some solar on my property too. That said I burn wood for heat and used LP for clothes drying and cooking. I have about the lowest electric bill of anyone I know. 

    From what I've read (whatever that is worth) we have enough fossil fuels to last another 100+ years at current consumption. Right here in the US. 

    With electric vehicles the current battery technology would just shift the pollution and carbon footprint to a different place than fossil fuels. 

    If we really could all figure out how to do nuclear is a safe manner electrification would make the most sense it seems. 

    The refrigerant used in all these heat pumps may or may not cause an issue that we cannot see right now. Just like when Europe embraced diesel cars and then found out they had smog issues 10 years later. Now diesel engines are choked to death and are very costly and unreliable and less efficient than they were 20 years ago. So they are disappearing accept for Heavy trucks and earthmoving equipment. 

    In many ways it is a sad state of affairs where we are today and most are flocking toward electric. 

    My comment about hydraulics was just synonymous with a way to move energy. No intent otherwise. 

    All that to say I have a very small carbon footprint relitive to those around me, but as has been said that has a lot to do with my local, and I recognize that my lifestyle cannot be duplicated on a large scale (biomass). 

    I wish we could figure out a way to make trash-to-energy plants work. So much garbage with lots of BTU content (plastic) just gets landfilled. Burn that junk and make electricity out of it! Recycling it seems to have been a scam all these years. 
    Serving Northern Maine HVAC & Controls. I burn wood, it smells good!
  • Dave Carpentier
    Dave Carpentier Member Posts: 586
    Would this work ?
    Regular electrical service, and an ASHP.
    A generator sized to provide electric heat as both supplement for cold snaps and as basic power for mainline outages. A commercial generator trailer isnt cheap, but with proper maintenance should last 30 years anyhow. No need for natural gas then.

    There was mention of gas being best for cooking. Maybe for oven duty, but I swear by my induction cooktop.. it beats the inlaws propane cooktop hands-down in both efficiency and speed up/down.
    30+ yrs in telecom outside plant.
    Currently in building maintenance.
  • JakeCK
    JakeCK Member Posts: 1,356
    edited June 2022
    But our consumption isn't static, or limited to our country.
    https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/exports/global-fossil-fuel-consumption.svg

    And the issue with the refrigerant... Well just about every house I know of has ac of some sort. A heat pump is essentially the same thing. In fact if I go the heat pump route I'll also get fan coils for cooling and I'll no longer need window ac units which seem to half a shelf life of 10 years or less. I'll probably end up actually having less refrigerant in the house than I do now.

    Solar farms can be built better. That is a sore point. It is entirely possible to raise the panels high enough to allow for crops underneath. It might actually help slow evaporation and keep the crops a little cooler has the temperatures get hotter and it gets drier. As for their manufacturing... Yea that is a problem. About as bad as coal mining. Except with coal one turns around and burns it putting the sequestered carbon in the atmosphere and it can only be used once. At least with solar panels they have a life time measured in decades and can be recycled. Same can be said for the batteries in EV's although I am a proponent of people living closer to work and mass transit. 

    Trash to power would be nice if it was economical. Better yet not producing disposable plastic in the first place. 

    I also want to add earth receives 174,000 terawatts from the sun continuously. Barring nuclear and geothermal it is the source of all of our energy. Harvesting it directly is just eliminating few energy conversions.
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 23,168
    " It is entirely possible to raise the panels high enough to allow for crops underneath. It might actually help slow evaporation and keep the crops a little cooler has the temperatures get hotter and it gets drier. " Well, maybe. Depends a lot on how they are built, and the policies of the owner and regulator. If they are high enough, and if the supports are properly spaced (nothing lower than 14 feet above the ground), yes you can farm underneath them, though the supports are a first class pain even if they are spaced far enough apart to allow machinery. But... lower you can't, and spaced closely they cut off too much sun for many crops.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 23,168
    Oh indeed. But -- that's relatively small scale vegetables. And for that sort of thing it would and does work well. No argument. But sme of the best solar sites other than the desert are in the fields of the upper midwest. Try that arrangement on a couple of sections of wheat or corn... and then try running a 16 foot combine in there...
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • JakeCK
    JakeCK Member Posts: 1,356
    edited June 2022
    I want to make clear that I'm not entirely sold on the idea of going all electric either. Just that the math seems to pan out initially, at least for me. It just rubs me the wrong way when people outright dismiss something with out really running the numbers. My current converted gravity system rarely gets above 130f. And only at the end of a heating cycle(this is also why I believe low return temps are my condensation issue in the flue). And if it was sized appropriately where it had much longer cycle times I doubt I would ever see temperatures above 120f unless it was well below design. Put it to ya'll this way. The only time I have seen that thing bounce off the aquastat during normal operation is during a polar vortex and it was about -15 and very windy outside. Design for Cleveland is 7f I believe. Can someone verify that? A large setback can also cause it to hit the aquastat and end up baking you out of the house but that is to be expected with a high mass system.

    The low water temps combined with the not too expensive grid power and solar makes for a potentially favorable outcome going to a heat pump. 

    And I've already been investigating it. Only before I was going to keep the boiler for the backup. Now I'll have an eye towards outright replacing it if the fixed gas charges rise to $80 a month. The beautiful thing about this kind of setup is I'll be able to do both essentially. Setup the heat pump and back up resistance, keep the NG boiler for a few years and if it doesn't pan out well with full electric I still have a functional gas boiler. If it does work out... Sayonara.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,588
    @JakeCK then go for it.

    But in my opinion, no you shouldn't switch to electric heat.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • jumper
    jumper Member Posts: 2,228
    Back to locomotives. Diesel engines are maintenance intensive. Every so many hours operation require work in garage. Battery cars can be replaced with fresh charged whenever. And government doesn't pick on operators for pollution. So why not? I conclude that railroads figure that their Diesel generated electricity is more economical than juice from batteries.
  • Hot_water_fan
    Hot_water_fan Member Posts: 1,823
    Who cares if panels are built on farmland? It’s not our farmland. 
  • yesimon
    yesimon Member Posts: 45
    Some interesting thoughts...

    Here's a short cut for arithmetic. Why do locomotives use Diesel to generate electricity instead of pulling a few battery cars?

    This is pro-electrification take! Internal combustion engines just don't have the same efficiency as electric motors for transportation. Electricity is the more versatile medium to provide proper torque vs load. Whether powered by diesel, battery, or catenary, you have more flexible fuel options.

    Re: power outages & cost comparisons. A portable dino fuel generator has ~20% efficiency, multiplied by 3.0 COP of a heat pump gives 60% system efficiency. That's not as a good as an 80% boiler or 95% mod-con, but at least within 1.5x range, if electric is unavailable or "too expensive". In reverse, you can use a 40% efficient (from power plant) resistive space heater if your natural gas is unavailable, which is a 2.0x loss and hard to be competitive.

    NG price is going up in the US with LNG terminals coming online. Even the most expensive residential gas utilities here are still >30% cheaper than European prices.


  • yesimon
    yesimon Member Posts: 45
    Gas stoves will be one of the last/hardest appliances to get rid of. They basically don't wear out, unlike HVAC equipment. The energy usage, emissions, and potential cost savings to replace are marginal. Americans are culturally ingrained to think it's the best - "I love the power and control of a gas stove" etc.

    However, induction (and even electric coil) are actually much more powerful than gas at max. You can test this by timing how long it takes to boil water. Yes, electric resistance will be much less responsive but induction is even more responsive than gas. Finally, the biggest case might be made on health - more and more studies are indicating significant air pollution from gas stoves both in use (combustion) and off (VOC leaks). Additionally, how much methane is leaking from gas stoves?
    Larry Weingarten
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,588
    yesimon said:
    Gas stoves will be one of the last/hardest appliances to get rid of. They basically don't wear out, unlike HVAC equipment. The energy usage, emissions, and potential cost savings to replace are marginal. Americans are culturally ingrained to think it's the best - "I love the power and control of a gas stove" etc. However, induction (and even electric coil) are actually much more powerful than gas at max. You can test this by timing how long it takes to boil water. Yes, electric resistance will be much less responsive but induction is even more responsive than gas. Finally, the biggest case might be made on health - more and more studies are indicating significant air pollution from gas stoves both in use (combustion) and off (VOC leaks). Additionally, how much methane is leaking from gas stoves?
    Less than from people's bottoms.

    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    Solid_Fuel_Man
  • ratio
    ratio Member Posts: 3,616
    ChrisJ said:

    Less than from people's bottoms.

    You imply that's a leak… :smiley::smiley:
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 23,168
    jumper said:

    Back to locomotives. Diesel engines are maintenance intensive. Every so many hours operation require work in garage. Battery cars can be replaced with fresh charged whenever. And government doesn't pick on operators for pollution. So why not? I conclude that railroads figure that their Diesel generated electricity is more economical than juice from batteries.

    At the moment it is. That may change with time, if batteries become lighter and more powerful. A LOT more powerful. 2.2 megawatts is a lot of power... and to run for 8 hours you'd need 16 megawatt hours of battery capacity. 1,270 Tesla Powerwalls... 211 tons of the things. For each engine. On maintenance, railroad diesels usually run between 100,000 and 200,000 miles between light overhauls (oil and filters change), and 8 times that for heavy.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,022
    Everyone on this list already has a heat pump, aka a refrigerator :)
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    JakeCK
  • JakeCK
    JakeCK Member Posts: 1,356
    edited June 2022
    Anyone who isn't anti-heatpump/electric heat and has any experience with them have any suggestions on air source heat pumps?

    My only options for a split system seem to be Nordic, and SpacePak. A company by the name of Artic Heat Pumps has a monobloc system that is diy friendly. I have already contacted them about options but being a monobloc means I need to run glycol through the entire system or use a heat exchangers. Both options will cut in to the cop. 

    I like the Nordic units but sourcing a distributor is difficult. 
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 23,168
    My ex's apartment (part of Cedric's steam heated home!) has a Carrier four head minisplit -- seems to work fine. Keeps her happy anyway. And we were able to install it with very minimal damage all reversible (a consideration in a Historic Register Property).
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England