Time to go all electric?

JakeCK

Columbia gas is asking for rate increases for fixed distribution changes. According to fox8 this could lead to $80 a month in fixed charges before you even use a single unit of gas with in the next 5 years. 

Sounds like a damn good reason to go all in on electric and tell Columbia gas to stick the meter where the sun don't shine. I only have two gas appliances left, my dryer and the boiler. The dryer is easy, already looking in to a heat pump dryer. The boiler would take some work but with an a2w heat pump and resistance electric its technically possible. If that means I can shut off gas service entirely 80$ a month minimum savings might make up the difference... 

https://fox8.com/news/ohioans-facing-home-gas-and-electric-rate-hikes/amp/

gennady

Do you have free electricity?

ratio

Do you mind if your electricity is shut off because there isn't enough to go around? This actually happened to me, a few weeks ago. Why yes, I am still a little salty about it.

MaxMercy

In Connecticut, electricity is ridiculously expensive. Even oil at $5 a gallon is a lot cheaper than pure reistive electric.

A geothermal heat pump is the way to go for low monthly operating costs, but I'm not sure about how the installation costs, maintenance, or long term life of the equipment will factor into complete affordability.

pecmsg

JakeCK said:

Columbia gas is asking for rate increases for fixed distribution changes. According to fox8 this could lead to $80 a month in fixed charges before you even use a single unit of gas with in the next 5 years. 

Sounds like a damn good reason to go all in on electric and tell Columbia gas to stick the meter where the sun don't shine. I only have two gas appliances left, my dryer and the boiler. The dryer is easy, already looking in to a heat pump dryer. The boiler would take some work but with an a2w heat pump and resistance electric its technically possible. If that means I can shut off gas service entirely 80$ a month minimum savings might make up the difference... 

https://fox8.com/news/ohioans-facing-home-gas-and-electric-rate-hikes/amp/

Don't forget the cost of upgrading your incoming power feed!
Also, the backup generator during the winter ice storm outages!

ChrisJ

JakeCK said:

Columbia gas is asking for rate increases for fixed distribution changes. According to fox8 this could lead to $80 a month in fixed charges before you even use a single unit of gas with in the next 5 years. 

Sounds like a damn good reason to go all in on electric and tell Columbia gas to stick the meter where the sun don't shine. I only have two gas appliances left, my dryer and the boiler. The dryer is easy, already looking in to a heat pump dryer. The boiler would take some work but with an a2w heat pump and resistance electric its technically possible. If that means I can shut off gas service entirely 80$ a month minimum savings might make up the difference... 

https://fox8.com/news/ohioans-facing-home-gas-and-electric-rate-hikes/amp/

"this could lead to $80 a month in fixed charges before you even use a single unit of gas with in the next 5 years"

Sounds like typical "Let's get people fired up without actually providing any useful information" to me.
I guess it worked.

Jamie Hall

Do your numbers. There is no free lunch.

Hot_water_fan

Do you have or want AC? Makes the decision easier

sunlight33

how much are you paying for kwh?

ChrisJ

The amount of "gas bad electric good" posts anymore is simply unbelievable.

And they never really say why.


I've never liked fads....

SlamDunk

Some fads are cool. I enjoyed the cup cake store on every corner fad. I enjoy the brewery on every corner fad, as well as, occasionally, the coffee shop on every corner fad...The excessive competition usually kills these fads.

Hot_water_fan

@ChrisJ what makes it a fad? Heat pumps are mature, widespread technology. It’s popular now because they can be cheaper to operate and are often significantly cleaner. A win win yeah? 

ChrisJ

Hot_water_fan said:

@ChrisJ what makes it a fad? Heat pumps are mature, widespread technology. It’s popular now because they can be cheaper to operate and are often significantly cleaner. A win win yeah? 

"Going all electric" is a fad right now just like pounding "efficiency" into people's minds like it's the only thing important.

Hot_water_fan

@ChrisJ Nobody claims it's the only important thing. Most would say it's not important at all. It could just become the default and the average person needn't think about it.

meerkat

@MaxMercy is right, electricity in the tri-state (NY/NJ/CT) area is expensive. Only a very rich or very crazy person would choose to go all-electric here, lol
Here's a snip from our most recent paid electric bill, showing kwh and other charges. This is BEFORE the central air was fired up at all this season, btw. Electric appliances are stove, clothes washer, clothes dryer, one OLED tv, one computer and printer; all light bulbs converted to LEDs. Oil heat with indirect domestic water tank. Current average COD price of oil is between $5.40 and $5.99/gallon depending on source and quantity delivered.

That bill was generated just before the higher "summertime" over-250-kwh rate kicks in, as of June 1st:

Hot_water_fan

@meerkat Agreed, that's expensive. The hope would be that as more electricity is used the delivery rate falls significantly. I pay like 1/3rd that as more electricity is used per capita here in MD. I used 40% more electricity in May but paid 25% less in total.

JakeCK

Last months bill was $54 for 18 ccf so $80 already isn't far off. I suspect the local news station is not just getting people worked up, it is coming. That's a lot of money just for the privilege of having a combustible toxic gas piped into your house. Almost a grand a year just in fixed fees. That could buy me a lot of electricity during the months my solar array can't keep up. 

Yes, I have already done the numbers, they are favorable.

Yes my electric service has already been upgraded to 200amp service when I had the solar arrays installed.

And I don't get this "but what happens when the power goes out?" argument. The same thing happens now. Last time I checked I needed electricity to run my boiler. And a generator to do that when the grid fails. I already have a dual fuel generator and generator inlet box w/ an interlock on the panel.

Yes my electric is free at least at current consumption. And so far this year I have put about 3Mwh of energy back into the grid. There has only been a couple days since April where I didn't produce more then I used. The only months I haven't met my current usage are December and January. I have considerable headroom.

Last I checked it was about $.06/Kwh.

Now for the math:
Between November and May I used 1046 ccf of NG. Octobers use was negligible. That works out to roughly 106692017 btu's for the heating season. My at least 35yr old boiler is at best 80% efficient. So 85353614btu's into the structure. This works out to 25000kwh. A lot of energy for sure. But I'm not talking about using straight resistance electric. I keep reading reports that modern air to water heat pumps can get a COP in the ball park of 2-3 even as far low as 30f. The performance tables for atw heat pumps such as Nordic show a cop 3.5 @ 35f with a supply water temp of 105f putting out around 38000 btus. Again this is air source, not geo. I personally believe that is a bit optimistic, but let's suppose it can get to 2 for a seasonal average. That gets me to 12500kwh for heating for a season. Still a lot of energy. But lets run the numbers through the worst month at 243ccf.

243ccf * .8 = 194.4ccf

194.4ccf = 5811.2 kwh

5811.2 / 2COP = 2905.6kwh

Electric energy usage for the same month last year was 574.8kwh and the solar system produced 649.5kwh. This is for the month of Feb. of this year.

2905.6 + 574.8 - 649.5 = 2830.9Kwh

Now instead of trying to guess what my actual electric bill would have been I'll just use firstenergy's very handy bill calculator.

Which comes out to... $397.46. Sure my gas bill for that month was much less, $228.35 to be exact. But this is a combined bill of both electric and gas. And I would be saving that minimum monthly charge for 5-6 months of the year. And does not take into account the credit I have accumulated from the nearly 3Mwh I have put into the grid so far this year. Before solar I would average $130 a month for electric. Right now I currently have a credit approaching $100 and growing.

Any mistakes in my math?

Hot_water_fan

@JakeCK COP of 2 seems conservative! This writer got 2.5 using a Nordic in Vermont

https://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/article/air-to-water-heat-pump-retrofit

JakeCK

ChrisJ said:

Hot_water_fan said:

@ChrisJ what makes it a fad? Heat pumps are mature, widespread technology. It’s popular now because they can be cheaper to operate and are often significantly cleaner. A win win yeah? 

"Going all electric" is a fad right now just like pounding "efficiency" into people's minds like it's the only thing important.

I don't know man, this electric fad has been going strong for over a century now. And energy efficiency since the 70's when the oil embargo hit. But I'm sure this fab will pass real soon, once all the dino fuel is used up.

JakeCK

Hot_water_fan said:

@JakeCK COP of 2 seems conservative! This writer got 2.5 using a Nordic in Vermont https://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/article/air-to-water-heat-pump-retrofit

I like using conservative numbers.

ChrisJ

JakeCK said:

That's a lot of money just for the privilege of having a combustible toxic gas piped into your house. 

Yes, having a combustible toxic gas piped into your house.
Are you suggesting an electrical service is magically safe and has never harmed anyone?

Most of the time with a gas leak people realize it before it gets ugly.
However judging by the amount of electrical fires per year that doesn't seem to be the case with electrical wiring.

I'm not suggesting we shouldn't have electricity but let's stop with the scary descriptions. Fair is fair.


Home electrical fires account for an estimated 51,000 fires each year, nearly than 500 deaths, more than 1,400 injuries, and $1.3 billion in property damage.

JakeCK

Also there has been a %50 increase in the price of NG just in the past 12 months. Who knows if it will go back down or continue to go up. But my guess is up once winter rolls back around.

JakeCK

ChrisJ said:

JakeCK said:

That's a lot of money just for the privilege of having a combustible toxic gas piped into your house. 

Yes, having a combustible toxic gas piped into your house.
Are you suggesting an electrical service is magically safe and has never harmed anyone?

Most of the time with a gas leak people realize it before it gets ugly.
However judging by the amount of electrical fires per year that doesn't seem to be the case with electrical wiring.

I'm not suggesting we shouldn't have electricity but let's stop with the scary descriptions. Fair is fair.


Home electrical fires account for an estimated 51,000 fires each year, nearly than 500 deaths, more than 1,400 injuries, and $1.3 billion in property damage.

And then $*** like this happens.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merrimack_Valley_gas_explosions

Also how many of those house fires are caused by the home owner doing something stupid like running an extension cord to a space heater under a rug?

ChrisJ

JakeCK said:

Also there has been a %50 increase in the price of NG just in the past 12 months. Who knows if it will go back down or continue to go up. But my guess is up once winter rolls back around.

If the price of NG is up, the price of electric will follow.

ChrisJ

JakeCK said:

ChrisJ said:

JakeCK said:

That's a lot of money just for the privilege of having a combustible toxic gas piped into your house. 

Yes, having a combustible toxic gas piped into your house.
Are you suggesting an electrical service is magically safe and has never harmed anyone?

Most of the time with a gas leak people realize it before it gets ugly.
However judging by the amount of electrical fires per year that doesn't seem to be the case with electrical wiring.

I'm not suggesting we shouldn't have electricity but let's stop with the scary descriptions. Fair is fair.


Home electrical fires account for an estimated 51,000 fires each year, nearly than 500 deaths, more than 1,400 injuries, and $1.3 billion in property damage.

And then $*** like this happens.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merrimack_Valley_gas_explosions

And yet, it still doesn't come close to the amount of damage from electrical fires.

Look, you want a heat pump go for it. I'll just sit over here pointing and laughing.

Hot_water_fan

If the price of NG is up, the price of electric will follow.

A great part of using electricity is that it provides more consumer choice. Right now, I can use wind, solar, nuclear, coal and gas to heat my house. All my eggs aren't in one basket. Add in that heat pumps are more gas efficient than gas appliances, the gas price increases won't hit as hard.

JakeCK

ChrisJ said:

JakeCK said:

ChrisJ said:

JakeCK said:

That's a lot of money just for the privilege of having a combustible toxic gas piped into your house. 

Yes, having a combustible toxic gas piped into your house.
Are you suggesting an electrical service is magically safe and has never harmed anyone?

Most of the time with a gas leak people realize it before it gets ugly.
However judging by the amount of electrical fires per year that doesn't seem to be the case with electrical wiring.

I'm not suggesting we shouldn't have electricity but let's stop with the scary descriptions. Fair is fair.


Home electrical fires account for an estimated 51,000 fires each year, nearly than 500 deaths, more than 1,400 injuries, and $1.3 billion in property damage.

And then $*** like this happens.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merrimack_Valley_gas_explosions

And yet, it still doesn't come close to the amount of damage from electrical fires.

Look, you want a heat pump go for it. I'll just sit over here pointing and laughing.

Pointing and laughing? So is my math wrong? If so please point out where so I can rerun the numbers. Maybe I'm wrong.

JakeCK

Last months electric bill, solar system went live mid October:

fentonc

This forum needs more math

The math question here should be pretty straightforward - both gas and electric service have monthly fixed costs as well as marginal costs associated with each incremental kilowatt-hour or therm used. Nobody is going to drop their electric service, but under what circumstances would it make economic sense to drop one's gas service?

This is inherently a local question with a local answer, as both marginal and fixed costs for electrical and gas service vary significantly from place to place, but I can plug in the numbers for my location. For January-February this last year:

Basic service charge (includes delivery of 2.9 therms) + misc fees: $29.25
Marginal cost per therm: $1.88

Marginal cost per kwh: $0.218

If I dropped my gas service, my fixed charge would convert to $29.25/0.218= 134.17 'free' kwh, but I would now need to replace each therm with (hypothetically) 29.3 kwh, or a marginal cost for that heat of $0.0641/kwh equivalent, if we assumed our gas appliances were 100% efficient and we were replacing them with resistive (100% efficient) heating - that's 3.4x more expensive!

Now in practice it's not quite that bad, as my boiler is ~80% efficient, which means it was more like $0.08/kwh, or 2.7x more expensive. A heat pump with an average seasonal COP of 2.7 (probably reasonable for my area) would be a wash in terms of marginal operating cost, and I would still get that 134 kwh/month 'bonus' for dropping my fixed gas charges.

But now let's fast forward to my most recent bill, where the marginal cost of a therm is now $2.45, since gas prices have increased significantly. This makes heat from my boiler the equivalent of $0.1045/kwh, or ~2x more expensive than resistance heating, and I only need a seasonal COP of 2 (pretty easy to meet), plus i'm still getting the bonus of not paying the fixed gas charge. An $80 fixed gas charge would pay for 367 kwh.

There are structural reasons to think that the price of natural gas is going to stay high for the foreseeable future - LNG prices are much higher in the rest of the world (and have been for a long time), and the US has significantly increased its LNG export capacity, so prices in the US will tend to approach the global price as less of it is 'trapped' here. This will also push up electricity prices in markets where gas generation is dominant, but there are multiple ways to produce electricity (including things like rooftop solar), and my electrical costs have been nowhere near as volatile as my gas costs.

Plug in your own numbers to see if/when it would make sense for you!

JakeCK

ron said:

ratio said:

Do you mind if your electricity is shut off because there isn't enough to go around?

that's ok, better than mean tweets right?

Stop, no politics.

pecmsg

In the middle of the winter i can run my boiler and circulator off a small generator or even the wife's car inverter.

Not going to happen with heat pumps and stoves!

ChrisJ

JakeCK said:

ChrisJ said:

JakeCK said:

ChrisJ said:

JakeCK said:

That's a lot of money just for the privilege of having a combustible toxic gas piped into your house. 

Yes, having a combustible toxic gas piped into your house.
Are you suggesting an electrical service is magically safe and has never harmed anyone?

Most of the time with a gas leak people realize it before it gets ugly.
However judging by the amount of electrical fires per year that doesn't seem to be the case with electrical wiring.

I'm not suggesting we shouldn't have electricity but let's stop with the scary descriptions. Fair is fair.


Home electrical fires account for an estimated 51,000 fires each year, nearly than 500 deaths, more than 1,400 injuries, and $1.3 billion in property damage.

And then $*** like this happens.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merrimack_Valley_gas_explosions

And yet, it still doesn't come close to the amount of damage from electrical fires.

Look, you want a heat pump go for it. I'll just sit over here pointing and laughing.

Pointing and laughing? So is my math wrong? If so please point out where so I can rerun the numbers. Maybe I'm wrong.

It's the best I've got right now.
I don't know if your math is wrong or not, but I do know you can't predict the future. None of us can.

If I had to bet, I'd say you're going to pay more with electric.

JakeCK

pecmsg said:

In the middle of the winter i can run my boiler and circulator off a small generator or even the wife's car inverter.

Not going to happen with heat pumps and stoves!

You know, I've always said that too. My boiler's largest draw is the circulator and that uses what, like an amp of current? But I have yet to actually have to do that in the 12 years I have lived in this house now. And I can run a heat pump off a generator if need be. My current generator? no I'd have to get a bigger one with a nice low THD, but I've been wanting one anyways.

I also keep forgetting I have a wood burning fireplace too. I used to have a ventless log set in it but disconnected it a while back. I want to get a wood insert. If I got a good one with a blower I could heat the house with that in an emergency. And it doesn't need any power to work. The newer EPA inserts are about as efficient as my boiler too.

ChrisJ

JakeCK said:

pecmsg said:

In the middle of the winter i can run my boiler and circulator off a small generator or even the wife's car inverter.

Not going to happen with heat pumps and stoves!

You know, I've always said that too. My boiler's largest draw is the circulator and that uses what, like an amp of current? But I have yet to actually have to do that in the 12 years I have lived in this house now. And I can run a heat pump off a generator if need be. My current generator? no I'd have to get a bigger one with a nice low THD, but I've been wanting one anyways.

I ran my 2 stage air conditioner with ECM blower off of my home built portable generator running on natural gas while doing some tests.

I have no idea how low it's actual THD but the system didn't seem to care.

I'd have more faith in a cheap conventional generator than a cheap inverter when it comes to that. There are some who claim capacitor regulated brushless alternators are bad but I decided to go with one due to simplicity and I have zero complaints.

Expensive inverters are a whole other discussion. A good Honda should have no problems, portable or not.

pecmsg

JakeCK said:

pecmsg said:

In the middle of the winter i can run my boiler and circulator off a small generator or even the wife's car inverter.

Not going to happen with heat pumps and stoves!

You know, I've always said that too. My boiler's largest draw is the circulator and that uses what, like an amp of current? But I have yet to actually have to do that in the 12 years I have lived in this house now. And I can run a heat pump off a generator if need be. My current generator? no I'd have to get a bigger one with a nice low THD, but I've been wanting one anyways.

I also keep forgetting I have a wood burning fireplace too. I used to have a ventless log set in it but disconnected it a while back. I want to get a wood insert. If I got a good one with a blower I could heat the house with that in an emergency. And the newer EPA inserts are about as efficient as my boiler.

Yes, you can run it but to be able to start it will require a much larger generator and now your back to gas or oil.

I'm not sold on all electric in the near future. On the isl of long a huge upgrade of the grid will have to be made, what's that going to do to your rates?

JakeCK

ChrisJ said:

JakeCK said:

pecmsg said:

In the middle of the winter i can run my boiler and circulator off a small generator or even the wife's car inverter.

Not going to happen with heat pumps and stoves!

You know, I've always said that too. My boiler's largest draw is the circulator and that uses what, like an amp of current? But I have yet to actually have to do that in the 12 years I have lived in this house now. And I can run a heat pump off a generator if need be. My current generator? no I'd have to get a bigger one with a nice low THD, but I've been wanting one anyways.

I ran my 2 stage air conditioner with ECM blower off of my home built portable generator running on natural gas while doing some tests.

I have no idea how low it's actual THD but the system didn't seem to care.

I'd have more faith in a cheap conventional generator than a cheap inverter when it comes to that. There are some who claim capacitor regulated brushless alternators are bad but I decided to go with one due to simplicity and I have zero complaints.

Expensive inverters are a whole other discussion. A good Honda should have no problems, portable or not.

I wouldn't get an inverter generator at that size. Winco makes a 12kw tri fuel gen with a honda engine. The power it puts out is cleaner then the grid. Not cheap tho.

Also I've read that newer heat pumps are sensitive to distortion. Probably the electronics getting stupid?

JakeCK

pecmsg said:

JakeCK said:

pecmsg said:

In the middle of the winter i can run my boiler and circulator off a small generator or even the wife's car inverter.

Not going to happen with heat pumps and stoves!

You know, I've always said that too. My boiler's largest draw is the circulator and that uses what, like an amp of current? But I have yet to actually have to do that in the 12 years I have lived in this house now. And I can run a heat pump off a generator if need be. My current generator? no I'd have to get a bigger one with a nice low THD, but I've been wanting one anyways.

I also keep forgetting I have a wood burning fireplace too. I used to have a ventless log set in it but disconnected it a while back. I want to get a wood insert. If I got a good one with a blower I could heat the house with that in an emergency. And the newer EPA inserts are about as efficient as my boiler.

Yes, you can run it but to be able to start it will require a much larger generator and now your back to gas or oil.

I'm not sold on all electric in the near future. On the isl of long a huge upgrade of the grid will have to be made, what's that going to do to your rates?

On RV's that is often a problem for generators when the AC kicks on. The solution is a soft start capacitor.

hot_rod

JakeCK said:

pecmsg said:

In the middle of the winter i can run my boiler and circulator off a small generator or even the wife's car inverter.

Not going to happen with heat pumps and stoves!

You know, I've always said that too. My boiler's largest draw is the circulator and that uses what, like an amp of current? But I have yet to actually have to do that in the 12 years I have lived in this house now. And I can run a heat pump off a generator if need be. My current generator? no I'd have to get a bigger one with a nice low THD, but I've been wanting one anyways.

I also keep forgetting I have a wood burning fireplace too. I used to have a ventless log set in it but disconnected it a while back. I want to get a wood insert. If I got a good one with a blower I could heat the house with that in an emergency. And it doesn't need any power to work. The newer EPA inserts are about as efficient as my boiler too.

If you go with a bigger generator, look into a cogen, gives you hydronic heat/ hot water and power. I think the Lochinvar can get about 160,000 BTU/hr on the thermal side, 24KW.
Share some KW with a neighbor during power outages

Going with all or partial electric is entirely a personal choice. With your PV array it is a no-brainer.
Remembering everyone posting here has electricity powering their AC and computers to hate on electricity

JakeCK

hot_rod said:

JakeCK said:

pecmsg said:

In the middle of the winter i can run my boiler and circulator off a small generator or even the wife's car inverter.

Not going to happen with heat pumps and stoves!

You know, I've always said that too. My boiler's largest draw is the circulator and that uses what, like an amp of current? But I have yet to actually have to do that in the 12 years I have lived in this house now. And I can run a heat pump off a generator if need be. My current generator? no I'd have to get a bigger one with a nice low THD, but I've been wanting one anyways.

I also keep forgetting I have a wood burning fireplace too. I used to have a ventless log set in it but disconnected it a while back. I want to get a wood insert. If I got a good one with a blower I could heat the house with that in an emergency. And it doesn't need any power to work. The newer EPA inserts are about as efficient as my boiler too.

If you go with a bigger generator, look into a cogen, gives you hydronic heat/ hot water and power. I think the Lochinvar can get about 160,000 BTU/hr on the thermal side, 24KW.
Share some KW with a neighbor during power outages

Going with all or partial electric is entirely a personal choice. With your PV array it is a no-brainer.
Remembering everyone posting here has electricity powering their AC and computers to hate on electricity

I've looked at cogens. But I have no need for that much power or heat. And it kind of defeats the purpose of telling the gas co to shove it up their exhaust pipe.

pecmsg

JakeCK said:

ChrisJ said:

JakeCK said:

pecmsg said:

In the middle of the winter i can run my boiler and circulator off a small generator or even the wife's car inverter.

Not going to happen with heat pumps and stoves!

You know, I've always said that too. My boiler's largest draw is the circulator and that uses what, like an amp of current? But I have yet to actually have to do that in the 12 years I have lived in this house now. And I can run a heat pump off a generator if need be. My current generator? no I'd have to get a bigger one with a nice low THD, but I've been wanting one anyways.

I ran my 2 stage air conditioner with ECM blower off of my home built portable generator running on natural gas while doing some tests.

I have no idea how low it's actual THD but the system didn't seem to care.

I'd have more faith in a cheap conventional generator than a cheap inverter when it comes to that. There are some who claim capacitor regulated brushless alternators are bad but I decided to go with one due to simplicity and I have zero complaints.

Expensive inverters are a whole other discussion. A good Honda should have no problems, portable or not.

I wouldn't get an inverter generator at that size. Winco makes a 12kw tri fuel gen with a honda engine. The power it puts out is cleaner then the grid. Not cheap tho.

Also I've read that newer heat pumps are sensitive to distortion. Probably the electronics getting stupid?

My point is once you go all electric does the utility allow gas or oil at the residence and still get a preferred rate? Many if not most do not.

Hot_water_fan

My point is once you go all electric does the utility allow gas or oil at the residence and still get a preferred rate? Many if not most do not.

Maybe. I could see the opposite happening too - maybe a utility prefers a hybrid system instead of resistance backup.