Time to go all electric?

Jamie Hall

Dave Carpentier said:

Do the vehicles indicate a % of max regenerative braking ? If you had a regular commute, could you train yourself to optimize by slowing down earlier ? I assume at some point the generator is overrun and friction brakes take over, are some models/brands better than others for the capacity of regen braking ?

All of the above. The biggest problem I had with that 2004 Civic was that the battery capacity was limited, so in some situations (a long downgrade) I ran out of battery capacity. I'm not sure what the maximum regen brake capacity was, but it was considerable and with a bit of care one could feel when the friction brakes came on in addition, and avoid that -- using only the regen except for the very last stopping (about 5 mph down). And yes, I did have a regular commute and yes I did learn to optimise my driving for it -- but then I habitually drive with long following distances and slowing early for things (years of pulling loaded horse trailers will do that to you!). My son's new Civic hybrid has much better battery capacity, but it isn't as easy even for a featherfoot to sense the transition to friction braking. My sister's Prius seems to have an entirely different logic to it. Both it and my son's, with the bigger batteries, are much better on downgrades.

ChrisJ

Dave Carpentier said:

Do the vehicles indicate a % of max regenerative braking ? If you had a regular commute, could you train yourself to optimize by slowing down earlier ? I assume at some point the generator is overrun and friction brakes take over, are some models/brands better than others for the capacity of regen braking ?

I think the Prius shows things like that so I'd assume most if not all do

Solid_Fuel_Man

I've always enjoyed driving optimally for fuel mileage. I've recently learned that has been dubbed "hyper mileing". I can generally get, according to the dash Readout at least 30% better mileage than my wife in her CR-V. 

Of course that all goes out the window when we have a carload of kids and I just want to get there ASAP and be outta there. 

I've averaged 34MPG over a 400 mile trip, this is in a 2010 with 5 speed auto, 2.4 non turbo. The AWD really eats up some efficiency. I bet I'd be closer to 40 is it were FWD only. 

It's funny, my RAM promaster work van is programmed to consume more fuel, by downshifting at the slightest increase in speed when your foot is off the gas. There is no way to turn it off. I've looked into reprogramming the TCM to no avail so far. Drives me nuts! I wish I just had a manual....geared to the moon like the 6 speed auto is. But again, not available....

I'm sick of the "save the people from themselves", and forcing our hand at some of this. 

My gasoline VWs from the 80s would all do over 40mpg on E10 and run for 300,000 miles with minimal maintenance. But all are considered gross polluters now.

jumper

I read that EV batteries are 90% efficient charging & discharging.
Result is 80% efficient which sounds pretty good.
Of course if electricity comes from solar farm some distance away then transmission is say 85% efficient; now we're down to 69%.
There's some hydrogen cars around. Making green hydrogen is less than 50% efficient. Team that with 50% fuel cell and then you end up with 25%. But H2 car is clean and quiet and takes minutes to fill up.
Eventually gasoline will become even more relatively more expensive but we've been waiting decades for that obvious prediction to come to pass.

Also there's still many varieties of EVs that are not yet available. How about a plug in with an IC charger for longer distances?

Sal Santamaura

First, I've really enjoyed the back-and-forth about how viable perpetual motion machines might or might not be. Very entertaining.

On braking: my 2003 Honda Accord, combined with my driving style (like an 80-something since I was in my 30s) means I've replaced the front disk pads twice in 330,000 miles. It's not a hybrid. The rear drum linings are original.

Finally, on the highway, when I was commuting 100 miles per day round trip before retirement, the Accord returned around 36 mpg. Hybrids weren't at all attractive, since they didn't achieve significantly greater fuel economy under those conditions, cost quite a bit more to obtain and incurred "worst of all possible worlds" penalties, like greater complexity, still needing smog checks, time-limited battery life, etc. Now, accumulating only a couple of thousand miles per year, if something befell the Accord that required its replacement, I'd definitely go with an EV, but not a hybrid.

Jamie Hall

The amount of driving you do, @Sal Santamaura , I'd pick an EV, too -- probably a Bolt. If I could afford it, which I can't. My experience is much like yours on mileage, though my Civic didn't cost more to maintain than an IC would have (my son finally scraped it at 160,000 miles -- the battery would only hold about 50% of charge). On the other hand, if major maintenance is needed, an EV or hybrid can really set you back... or even what seems like minor maintenance. A friend of mine left his Prius sitting for six months without driving it anywhere, and when he came back the main battery had drained too low to start the engine. "Just charge it". Well, no. It seems a special charger is needed, which costs 9 large and is only available to a dealer... Ka CHING!

yesimon

Hot_water_fan said:

Is an EV ultimately more efficient than a typical car?

Yes, it’s not particularly close 

Actually it's much closer than what people perceive on a fossil fuel basis.

A 2022 Prius gets 55 MPG. Meanwhile a Tesla Model 3 (comparable size/use) gets 130 MPGe with electricity. If that electricity comes from an oil power plant with standard efficiency of ~30%, down to 27% for some losses, then it only gets 35 MPG from oil - which is actually worse. However, the real advantage of EVs is flexibility of fuel source, and realistically the current day USA grid is mostly natural gas with renewables/nuclear filling the rest. Electricity from natural gas is like 50 MPG. From solar, you can use the full 130 MPG number.


Now compare F-150 hybrid at 24 MPG to F-150 lightning at 70 MPGe. The numbers are even more favorable despite a 6000 lb curb weight.

Hot_water_fan

@yesimon haha does anyone compare a Prius and a model 3? 

Oil is a bad way of generating electricity. Luckily, the US avoids it. 

KC_Jones

yesimon said:

Now compare F-150 hybrid at 24 MPG to F-150 lightning at 70 MPGe. The numbers are even more favorable despite a 6000 lb curb weight.

I get close to that in a non hybrid F-150. My overall average is 21 for the life of the vehicle, but back and forth to work I get ~23-23.5 regularly. The overall is low because I tow a 5000 lbs boat about 2500 miles per year, which is about 1/4 of my driving per year.

fentonc

I have a PHEV RAV4 that makes it pretty easy to do a direct comparison - it pretty consistently gets 3.1 miles/kWh in electric only mode and 38 MPG in hybrid/gas mode.

ChrisJ

And I'm getting 45-48MPG with a ICE alone.

The Steam Whisperer

To add to the comparible heavy vehicles, our 2017 Chevy full size Express van, running at minimum 7500 lbs Gross , gets around 21to 22 city and 30 to 36 highway ( I recently added a lower air dam and picked up 2.5 to 3mpg on the highway). Considering the weight of a Prius (a hefty 3000 lbs), we are moving 2 1/2 times the weight, so a Prius would need to be getting 52 mpg city and around 100 mpg highway to equal my diesel powered van...pound per pound.
From what I've seen most Diesel powered cars get about the same mileage as Hybrids equivalents In the city the edge probably goes to hybrids due to the regenerative braking, I would suspect. On the highway, we can go about 1000 miles per tank.

jumper

Lady who gets to charge her EV from her employer's massive PV array doesn't give a hoot about mpg e or otherwise.

Solid_Fuel_Man

jumper said:

Lady who gets to charge her EV from her employer's massive PV array doesn't give a hoot about mpg e or otherwise.

And if I worked for a fuel company and got free gas, I wouldn't give a hoot either. 

Isolated situation, which would likely go away if/when EVs are standard. 

The Steam Whisperer

All that EV capacity will be going to power the HP's!!!!

ChrisJ

The Steam Whisperer said:

All that EV capacity will be going to power the HP's!!!!

A world where all we have is expensive short lived, impossible to troubleshoot heat pumps with long lead times on parts and a major monopoly by the electric company................

I don't know........

JakeCK

😙

ChrisJ

JakeCK said:

😙

Ok, and?

Solid_Fuel_Man

My bill is typically $45-$55 and pur cost all in is $0.215/ Kwh delivered. 

3200 square foot home, stay at home wife, 2 kids, a well, and I'm self employed and have a home office. No solar...yet....

What's your point? As @ChrisJ said....

JakeCK

The point is I have a $109 credit for a month that last year was nearly a $200.

And how are you only using 200 or so Kwh a month?

Seriously I used that in the span of 4 days.

ChrisJ

JakeCK said:

The point is I have a $109 credit for a month that last year was nearly a $200.

And how are you only using 200 or so Kwh hours?

How much did you invest in order to get this $109 credit?
Something tells me you're not $109 ahead right now.

JakeCK

Of course not. It's an investment. But better returns then the stock market too at the moment.

Actually considering I normally spent an average of $120 a month on electric when divided over a 12 month period I've already gotten almost a grand back on my investment so far since October. The amount I spent on this system is comparable to a new boiler install in many markets and would never have anywhere close to that level of a return.

ChrisJ

JakeCK said:

Of course not. It's an investment. But better returns then the stock market too at the moment.

Actually considering I normally spent an average of $120 a month on electric when divided over a 12 month period I've already gotten almost a grand back on my investment so far since October. The amount I spent on this system is comparable to a new boiler install in many markets and would never have anywhere close to that level of a return.

I guess you're not going to answer that.

I guess 10-12 years to break even, assuming your savings remains the same and nothing fails or needs repairs?

JakeCK

Now going back to the original purpose of the post about going all electric... Last month I only used 2ccf of natural gas. That was nothing but the clothes dryer. Boiler is shut down with power and gas turned off. No other gas appliances are present. My bill was still 40 dollars, of that only a $1.52 was actual consumption charges. Even right now, before any rate increases I could save almost $580/yr by getting rid of the gas.

JakeCK

ChrisJ said:

JakeCK said:

Of course not. It's an investment. But better returns then the stock market too at the moment.

Actually considering I normally spent an average of $120 a month on electric when divided over a 12 month period I've already gotten almost a grand back on my investment so far since October. The amount I spent on this system is comparable to a new boiler install in many markets and would never have anywhere close to that level of a return.

I guess you're not going to answer that.

I guess 10-12 years to break even, assuming your savings remains the same and nothing fails or needs repairs?

~$25,000 after tax rebates. Most people spend more, substantially more, on a new car every couple of years just to put it in to perspective. The system has a 25 year warranty as long as the manufacturers remain in business. Both for the microinverters and panels. The manufacturer of the panels has been in business since 99' so they have already been around nearly a quarter century. And for the micro inverters, that company has been in business since 2006.

Also I didn't feel like repeating myself. I could have sworn I mentioned the cost of the system already.

ChrisJ

JakeCK said:

ChrisJ said:

JakeCK said:

Of course not. It's an investment. But better returns then the stock market too at the moment.

Actually considering I normally spent an average of $120 a month on electric when divided over a 12 month period I've already gotten almost a grand back on my investment so far since October. The amount I spent on this system is comparable to a new boiler install in many markets and would never have anywhere close to that level of a return.

I guess you're not going to answer that.

I guess 10-12 years to break even, assuming your savings remains the same and nothing fails or needs repairs?

~$25,000 after tax rebates. Most people spend more, substantially more, on a new car every couple of years just to put it in to perspective. The system has a 25 year warranty as long as the manufacturers remain in business. Both for the microinverters and panels. The manufacturer of the panels has been in business since 99' so they have already been around nearly a quarter century. And for the micro inverters, that company has been in business since 2006.

Also I didn't feel like repeating myself. I could have sworn I mentioned the cost of the system already.

Well, I must have missed it. I apologize for that.
Thank you for taking the time to repeat yourself.

So, you expect to save a grand per 12 months, so in 25 years you'll break even and the system will no longer be under warranty.

Actually, you're doing a little better than that, $1K per 10 months.

JakeCK

That's linear though. Are energy costs going to remain static? NG went from .494/ccf for July 2021 to .799/ccf for this July. What do you you think is going to happen to the electric rates eventually? A lot of our electricity comes from NG. I also suspect we haven't seen anything yet. Once that LNG facility in Texas is back up and running and winter starts to roll back around things are going to get interesting. I fear there will be a lot of famililes having to choose between food on the table and having the house warm enough to even want to eat at the table.

Edit: Also I should clarify, its actually less than 9 months. The system went live late in October so when I ran the numbers I excluded that month, and only the first week of july is included in those numbers. There is still at least 3 months of really good production. By the time I get back around to the end of October I suspect it will be closer to 2K in savings with the credit to burn.

Which I why I'm looking at going all electric.

ChrisJ

JakeCK said:

That's linear though. Are energy costs going to remain static? NG went from .494/ccf for July 2021 to .799/ccf for this July. What do you you think is going to happen to the electric rates eventually? A lot of our electricity comes from NG. I also suspect we haven't seen anything yet. Once that LNG facility in Texas is back up and running and winter starts to roll back around things are going to get interesting. I fear there will be a lot of famililes having to choose between food on the table and having the house warm enough to even want to eat at the table.

Edit: Also I should clarify, its actually less than 9 months. The system went live late in October so when I ran the numbers I excluded that month, and only the first week of july is included in those numbers. There is still at least 3 months of really good production. By the time I get back around to the end of October I suspect it will be closer to 2K in savings.

No idea.
I cannot predict the future anymore than anyone else.

If I had to guess, I would say things are going to come back down once the dust settles at one point.
But I have no way of knowing. They could get worse, and stay there.

JakeCK

I hope you are right. For every ones sake. But if anything resembling what has happened in Europe this past year with energy costs happens here, it's going to be downright scary. Preparing for that now is, in my opinion, the only prudent choice. If I'm wrong then the worst that will happen is that I'll maybe only break even in 20 years. If my fears are well founded then my family has much better odds of staying warm and well fed.

ChrisJ

JakeCK said:

I hope you are right. For every ones sake. But if anything resembling what has happened in Europe this past year with energy costs happens here, it's going to be downright scary. Preparing for that now is, in my opinion, the only prudent choice. If I'm wrong then the worst that will happen is that I'll maybe only break even in 20 years. If my fears are well founded then my family has much better odds of staying warm and well fed.

What has happened in Europe this past year?

JakeCK

ChrisJ said:

What has happened in Europe this past year?

You're kidding right?

JakeCK

ChrisJ

JakeCK said:

I can barely see what the title of that is, but I assume it's natural gas costs?
Isn't that because they buy most of their natural gas from Russia?

That's not the case here.

JakeCK

Yea, we don't buy our NG from Russia, but we are ramping up the shipping liquefied NG to the EU to help make up the shortage...

Solid_Fuel_Man

@JakeCK

I have an LP dryer, a 1996 Side by side fridge, and an 86 gallon well tank only necessitating the submersible pump to operate a few times a day. Motor startup costs money. I built the house with lots of well placed windows so we use very little lights. 

Nothing else really runs on a regular basis. Super insulated on an 8" radiant slab, stays very cool in the summer, no A/C needed. 

Winter I run a wood boiler with a total of 145 watts of consumption (2x Alpha1, ID fan, and 1 40VA xfmr) 4 hours a day. 

Every decision I made to design was with long term energy cost in mind. 

I have thought about enough grid tie solar to wipe out my bill completly. 

JakeCK

Solid_Fuel_Man said:

@JakeCK

I have an LP dryer, a 1996 Side by side fridge, and an 86 gallon well tank only necessitating the submersible pump to operate a few times a day. Motor startup costs money. I built the house with lots of well placed windows so we use very little lights. 

Nothing else really runs on a regular basis. Super insulated on an 8" radiant slab, stays very cool in the summer, no A/C needed. 

Winter I run a wood boiler with a total of 145 watts of consumption (2x Alpha1, ID fan, and 1 40VA xfmr) 4 hours a day. 

Every decision I made to design was with long term energy cost in mind. 

I have thought about enough grid tie solar to wipe out my bill completly. 

At that low of a consumption it wouldn't take much in the way of a solar array to do the job. Actually if I were you I would get a battery and solar system and tell the power co. to F off. At first glance 200kwh a month would be easy to supply with a single 10kwh battery. 

All that said not all of us are that lucky. My house is pushing 100, has little to no insulation. It's designed with details such as raised rafter ties and dormers for half the upstairs windows, including a very drafty door that goes out to a first floor roof, because of this it has a pretty decent heat gain all summer long. And it has 5  8 over 1 double hung windows with a westward exposure in the dinning room alone. That room bakes in July beginning at noon. Or freezes in the middle of the coldest night in January. It also has a 35-40 year old 80% boiler.

ChrisJ

JakeCK said:

Solid_Fuel_Man said:

@JakeCK

I have an LP dryer, a 1996 Side by side fridge, and an 86 gallon well tank only necessitating the submersible pump to operate a few times a day. Motor startup costs money. I built the house with lots of well placed windows so we use very little lights. 

Nothing else really runs on a regular basis. Super insulated on an 8" radiant slab, stays very cool in the summer, no A/C needed. 

Winter I run a wood boiler with a total of 145 watts of consumption (2x Alpha1, ID fan, and 1 40VA xfmr) 4 hours a day. 

Every decision I made to design was with long term energy cost in mind. 

I have thought about enough grid tie solar to wipe out my bill completly. 

At that low of a consumption it wouldn't take much in the way of a solar array to do the job. Actually if I were you I would get a battery and solar system and tell the power co. to F off. At first glance 200kwh a month would be easy to supply with a single 10kwh battery. 

All that said not all of us are that lucky. My house is pushing 100, has little to no insulation. It's designed with details such as raised rafter ties and dormers for half the upstairs windows, including a very drafty door that goes out to a first floor roof, because of this it has a pretty decent heat gain all summer long. And it has 5  8 over 1 double hung windows with a westward exposure in the dinning room alone. That room bakes in July beginning at noon. Or freezes in the middle of the coldest night in January. It also has a 35-40 year old 80% boiler.

Some people have all the luck with modern houses....

Solid_Fuel_Man

My wife calls me to energy Nazi... I knew I needed to build my own house, or else I'd end up completly rebuilding an old one. 

I'm 38, and when I'm 44 I'll be mortgage free.

JakeCK

You'll have me beat by 2 years. 

Jamie Hall

There has never been a mortgage on Cedric's home. When my great great grandmother bought it in 1872, she financed it herself from novels she had written.