Time to go all electric?

The Steam Whisperer

JakeCK said:

Solid_Fuel_Man said:

@JakeCK

I have an LP dryer, a 1996 Side by side fridge, and an 86 gallon well tank only necessitating the submersible pump to operate a few times a day. Motor startup costs money. I built the house with lots of well placed windows so we use very little lights. 

Nothing else really runs on a regular basis. Super insulated on an 8" radiant slab, stays very cool in the summer, no A/C needed. 

Winter I run a wood boiler with a total of 145 watts of consumption (2x Alpha1, ID fan, and 1 40VA xfmr) 4 hours a day. 

Every decision I made to design was with long term energy cost in mind. 

I have thought about enough grid tie solar to wipe out my bill completly. 

At that low of a consumption it wouldn't take much in the way of a solar array to do the job. Actually if I were you I would get a battery and solar system and tell the power co. to F off. At first glance 200kwh a month would be easy to supply with a single 10kwh battery. 

All that said not all of us are that lucky. My house is pushing 100, has little to no insulation. It's designed with details such as raised rafter ties and dormers for half the upstairs windows, including a very drafty door that goes out to a first floor roof, because of this it has a pretty decent heat gain all summer long. And it has 5  8 over 1 double hung windows with a westward exposure in the dinning room alone. That room bakes in July beginning at noon. Or freezes in the middle of the coldest night in January. It also has a 35-40 year old 80% boiler.

Some Low e glass aluminum storms would do wonders for that window.. They take the R value from about 1 ( plus lots of air leakage) and bring it up to +- 3 with little air leakage. I installed 6 last fall, 5 on the west windows and the rooms were much warmer in the winter and way way cooler this summer. In the extreme heat the house stays 4 to 5F cooler than it used to.

JakeCK

The Steam Whisperer said:

Solid_Fuel_Man said:

@JakeCK

I have an LP dryer, a 1996 Side by side fridge, and an 86 gallon well tank only necessitating the submersible pump to operate a few times a day. Motor startup costs money. I built the house with lots of well placed windows so we use very little lights. 

Nothing else really runs on a regular basis. Super insulated on an 8" radiant slab, stays very cool in the summer, no A/C needed. 

Winter I run a wood boiler with a total of 145 watts of consumption (2x Alpha1, ID fan, and 1 40VA xfmr) 4 hours a day. 

Every decision I made to design was with long term energy cost in mind. 

I have thought about enough grid tie solar to wipe out my bill completly. 

At that low of a consumption it wouldn't take much in the way of a solar array to do the job. Actually if I were you I would get a battery and solar system and tell the power co. to F off. At first glance 200kwh a month would be easy to supply with a single 10kwh battery. 

All that said not all of us are that lucky. My house is pushing 100, has little to no insulation. It's designed with details such as raised rafter ties and dormers for half the upstairs windows, including a very drafty door that goes out to a first floor roof, because of this it has a pretty decent heat gain all summer long. And it has 5  8 over 1 double hung windows with a westward exposure in the dinning room alone. That room bakes in July beginning at noon. Or freezes in the middle of the coldest night in January. It also has a 35-40 year old 80% boiler.

Some Low e glass aluminum storms would do wonders for that window.. They take the R value from about 1 ( plus lots of air leakage) and bring it up to +- 3 with little air leakage. I installed 6 last fall, 5 on the west windows and the rooms were much warmer in the winter and way way cooler this summer. In the extreme heat the house stays 4 to 5F cooler than it used to.

Way ahead of you there. My new low e storms have finally came in, the installer has scheduled an install date of August 26th. Small operation and short staffed so they're booked out for a while unfortunately.

Edit: Did you have storms already installed or where they just single pane sashes exposed to the elements? I already have triple track storms but they're from the 60's have no weatherstripping and shake and rattle in the tracks plus a couple don't even stay all the way shut. I'm curious how much of an energy reduction I'll actually see since I already have, albeit really bad storm windows.

JakeCK

Here is a picture of the back where that door is. I actually just picked up a couple squares of the matching siding for this house and plan to removed the door before fall. Also need to fix the darn gutter.

That door goes to my daughter's bedroom and I see absolutely zero reasons she needs a door going to a roof. And a whole lot of reasons why she DOESN'T need a it. Lol

Solid_Fuel_Man

I once dated a girl who had a window she could climb out of.....oh wait. 

Get rid of the door

Jamie Hall

Just have a ladder handy...

jumper

Heating oil @ $5/therm? Even with only 60 hours per month of good winter sunshine a PV resistance heat with thermal storage may be a good investment? Let the market decide instead of elected folks who don't do arithmetic.

pecmsg

https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2022-07-14/california-rooftop-solar-pv-panels-recycling-danger

JakeCK

pecmsg said:

https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2022-07-14/california-rooftop-solar-pv-panels-recycling-danger

Already seen it. It is a problem. But so is the radioactive waste from nukes and the co2 from burning fuel.

But at least this problem can be solved by pushing the manufacturer to design the panels to be recycled in the first place. 

At the end of the day it isn't much different then all of the ewaste from our electronics. When was the last time one could buy a smart phone with a removable battery the could be replaced?

hot_rod

JakeCK said:

pecmsg said:

https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2022-07-14/california-rooftop-solar-pv-panels-recycling-danger

Already seen it. It is a problem. But so is the radioactive waste from nukes and the co2 from burning fuel.

But at least this problem can be solved my pushing the manufacturer to design the panels to be recycled in the first place. 

At the end of the day it isn't much different then all of the ewaste from our electronics. When was the last time one could buy a smart phone with a removable battery the could be replaced?


Technology is available to recycle PV modules now. If the panels cannot be refurbished. A number of states have EoL bills in the works where the manufacturer buys back the modules for re use or disposal.
aluminum is a no brainer, copper wire, and glass gets used to make insulation.
Silicone, silver, tellurium, silver, indium have some high value.
NREL has a TB tech bulletin on recycling.

Jamie Hall

The whole thing is a little like the Force -- it's everywhere, and it has a light side and a dark side (I've heard duct tape described that way...). The trick is to figure out the balance, and that is really an engineering problem, and singularly ill-suited to slogans and politics. Going to be interesting...

JakeCK

Washington state I believe already has an EoL mandate that shifts disposal to the manufacturer don't they?

Skyline

Electricity is not the be-all-end-all solution as it seems for number of reason. One is that 43% of the electricity in the US is generated by fossil fuel based generators. As such, it is not possible to isolate electricity generation from fossil fuel price increases. Take for example my Y-o-Y electric bills in CT:

The /kWh rate increased by around 30%, that has been been offset by delivery charge decrease. Yet, the end result is a marginally higher bill than last year for a 20% overall cost increase. As fossil fuel prices increase, so will the /kWh rates.

The difference in the total kWh used is related to weather and A/C usage, there has been no other changes in the house.

The Steam Whisperer

JakeCK said:

The Steam Whisperer said:

Solid_Fuel_Man said:

@JakeCK

I have an LP dryer, a 1996 Side by side fridge, and an 86 gallon well tank only necessitating the submersible pump to operate a few times a day. Motor startup costs money. I built the house with lots of well placed windows so we use very little lights. 

Nothing else really runs on a regular basis. Super insulated on an 8" radiant slab, stays very cool in the summer, no A/C needed. 

Winter I run a wood boiler with a total of 145 watts of consumption (2x Alpha1, ID fan, and 1 40VA xfmr) 4 hours a day. 

Every decision I made to design was with long term energy cost in mind. 

I have thought about enough grid tie solar to wipe out my bill completly. 

At that low of a consumption it wouldn't take much in the way of a solar array to do the job. Actually if I were you I would get a battery and solar system and tell the power co. to F off. At first glance 200kwh a month would be easy to supply with a single 10kwh battery. 

All that said not all of us are that lucky. My house is pushing 100, has little to no insulation. It's designed with details such as raised rafter ties and dormers for half the upstairs windows, including a very drafty door that goes out to a first floor roof, because of this it has a pretty decent heat gain all summer long. And it has 5  8 over 1 double hung windows with a westward exposure in the dinning room alone. That room bakes in July beginning at noon. Or freezes in the middle of the coldest night in January. It also has a 35-40 year old 80% boiler.

Some Low e glass aluminum storms would do wonders for that window.. They take the R value from about 1 ( plus lots of air leakage) and bring it up to +- 3 with little air leakage. I installed 6 last fall, 5 on the west windows and the rooms were much warmer in the winter and way way cooler this summer. In the extreme heat the house stays 4 to 5F cooler than it used to.

Way ahead of you there. My new low e storms have finally came in, the installer has scheduled an install date of August 26th. Small operation and short staffed so they're booked out for a while unfortunately.

Edit: Did you have storms already installed or where they just single pane sashes exposed to the elements? I already have triple track storms but they're from the 60's have no weatherstripping and shake and rattle in the tracks plus a couple don't even stay all the way shut. I'm curious how much of an energy reduction I'll actually see since I already have, albeit really bad storm windows.

I had leaky old wood storms in place, way better than nothing, but the improvement was really big. Looks like you could do dense pack fiberglass in those walls. I had to do a few places in my house by drilling the plaster( we're all face brick exterior). It wasn't hard to patch and refinish. The walls should be around r-12 or so on average ( including the loss through the studs). Heat load for 1 story plus basement (1600 sq ft each) is around 35,000 btu/hr @ -5F. It only takes a one ton window unit to cool the house now.

JakeCK

I've been going with cellulose. The kitchen has been insulated with that when I remodeled that room. But I can't do the rest of the house until all of the old k&t wiring is abandoned. Still have it upstairs. 

The Steam Whisperer

I'm in Chicago, so it had hard conduit from when it was built about 1902. Wiring is all new anyway.... I've added about 200 feet of conduit so far...mostly light switches for ceiling lights ( most were pull chains), added outlets and closet lights.
I've stayed away from cellulose after reading about reports from a state that inspects homes regularly that it was becoming flammable as it aged. Also, what the manufacturers don't tell you is that it smolders, so it can reignite fires. This was confirmed by a 3 generation firemen family I did work for many years ago.

Solid_Fuel_Man

Yes, I've seen many reports that after long term heat exposure (in an attic) the anti-combustion properties begin to fade. Chicago learned a lot after the great fire, and I think conduit really is superior. I like MC cable as well, but rats can chew through it I'm told. 

JakeCK

do you either of you two have links to those reports?

The Steam Whisperer

IIRC, The state was Massachusetts or Maine, and they inspected every home every 2 years. Of course if you go to the fiberglass insulation web sites, they would have links to tests about the smoldering problems of cellulose.

I"m not sure if the lessons from the Chicago Fire fully sunk in...as Steamhead posted the Theatre Fire and then later there was the Our Lady of Angels School fire in 50s and numerous deadly fires in the 70's and 80s on the West Side. The high rise Condo's in Chicago are still refusing to sprinkle thier buildings. The owners typically have plenty of money, but refuse to spend it.

JakeCK

Not saying you or the fiberglass manufacturers are wrong about cellulose smoldering but I question their motives. And has anyone watched what happens when fiberglass is exposed to fire? The fact the cellulose is still there to reignite hours later suggests it has infact protected the structure?


Edit: I hate autocorrect and auto fill on smart phones...

JakeCK

Kind of off topic but on a side note how many have read the recent reports about how long you have before structure failure in a fire with modern buildings? It scary. Especially houses built with engineered I joists and now even engineered studs. It might take 20 minutes for the joists in my house to burn enough to fail but in a modern house with this new s*** you have what, like 5 minutes?

ChrisJ

You could always choose to build using materials that do not burn......
Concrete and steel are still options.


@Solid_Fuel_Man I have lived in houses with NM-B cable for 42 years and I have yet to see anything chew it. If you have a rodent problem in a house it needs to be dealt with, especially rats.

Commercial is a different story.

JakeCK

Get steel and concrete hot enough and it'll fail too. That really wasn't my point though. 

At the end of the day if you have a fire that gets going enough to really damage or burn any installed insulation your only concern at that point is getting out and how much time you have to do that. 

Jamie Hall

In terms of fire rating, genuine heavy timber (either the real thing -- but there aren't many trees left that size -- or stress rated glu-lam douglas fir) is about as good as it gets. No construction material is resistant to a fire indefinitely -- steel loses strength and sometimes expands enough to topple walls; concrete spalls and can fail abruptly, heavy timber will burn through eventually, but an 8 inch square beam is going to take a while.

No light modern construction is a different story. Fast growth southern pine dimension lumber studes, engineered joists (not glu-lam -- the things with a plywood or oriented strand lumber web and southern pine flanges)... yeah. They go pretty fast.

ChrisJ

Jamie Hall said:

In terms of fire rating, genuine heavy timber (either the real thing -- but there aren't many trees left that size -- or stress rated glu-lam douglas fir) is about as good as it gets. No construction material is resistant to a fire indefinitely -- steel loses strength and sometimes expands enough to topple walls; concrete spalls and can fail abruptly, heavy timber will burn through eventually, but an 8 inch square beam is going to take a while. No light modern construction is a different story. Fast growth southern pine dimension lumber studes, engineered joists (not glu-lam -- the things with a plywood or oriented strand lumber web and southern pine flanges)... yeah. They go pretty fast.

I'm sorry Jamie but I feel of a structure is made from steel and poured concrete, it's a bit less likely to burn than a wood framed one, regardless of the thickness of the combustible material.

Yes, steel will loose strength if hot, but removing all of the combustible material from the framing, flooring etc certainly cuts down on the amount of fuel for the fire to begin with.


Obviously nothing is perfect and concrete needs to be maintained.

Jamie Hall

If the only source of combustibles in a building is the building itself, and those materials are incombustible, then yes -- and steel is fireproof. No other fire source, then no heat, and it will hold up very well. Add another fuel source, though, the steel had best be well insulated from heat. Of course the poster child is the World Trade Center, but even ordinary furnishings and things like partitions are potential problems. Very few buildings have no combustibles in them!

Interesting fun fact: about the only combustibles other than military stores found on Iowa class battleships were -- and are -- the teak decks. 2 inch thick teak. Turns out to be great stuff -- very hard to ignite, even harder to keep burning if the ignition source is removed, and good heat insulating properties to protect the steel deck underneath from fires. Which is why it is there...

Solid_Fuel_Man

These are pictures I took of a home built in 2003. Radiant slab on grade, cedar milled log "kit" and all pine T&G interior partitions. 

Home in in a wooded area, with at least 100' in any direction to trees. 


And they have cats.... 

I was actually there to connect some radiant heat controls. There was a frozen pipe which flooded some of the house and they pulled the few courses of pine off for replacement. I saw this in pretty much every joist bay, inside. No exterior joists as it's a solid cedar wall. This place was a mouse superhighway. 

ratio

Boy, that's scary.

Jamie Hall

One of the better arguments for BX type cable, no?

ChrisJ

Jamie Hall said:

One of the better arguments for BX type cable, no?

It's a good argument to keep mice out.
They also crap and pee all over and carry disease 

The Steam Whisperer

I never quite saw the sense of NM... using a material that is lower quality than an extension cord and use it for permanent wiring. I'll admit though, I used it at our old house where just about anything was better than the wiring in most of the houses out there. A rats nest of NM stapled to the bottom of joists with 6 or more cables in a single junction box. Often no grounds connected.... and on and on. Even saw some of this in the new construction homes in the far west suburbs where it has to be approved by the inspector.

ChrisJ

The Steam Whisperer said:

I never quite saw the sense of NM... using a material that is lower quality than an extension cord and use it for permanent wiring. I'll admit though, I used it at our old house where just about anything was better than the wiring in most of the houses out there. A rats nest of NM stapled to the bottom of joists with 6 or more cables in a single junction box. Often no grounds connected.... and on and on. Even saw some of this in the new construction homes in the far west suburbs where it has to be approved by the inspector.

NM-B is literally THHN wire wrapped in a pvc sleeve.

There's nothing low quality about it which is why it's been so popular for the past 70 years and has an excellent track record. Except in NYC and Chicago.  Apparently you it'll defy physics and kill you in those two locations.  

JakeCK

I'll be the first to admit, I love the utility and clean look of conduit. I became familiar with it at work and tried to keep as much as I could in my house. House has K&T upstairs but has a lot of conduit in the basement. But conduit sucks when trying to retrofit in an old house short of tearing out all the plaster walls. Hard to fish a 10' stick of 3/4 emt up through a bottom plate with a basement that is just hardly 7ft tall.


And that is a lot of rodent activity! Did the owners not notice the cats going nuts? Were they deaf? The sound of that much chewing would drive me to unload a few magazines into the wall.

woobagooba

The Steam Whisperer said:

I'm in Chicago, so it had hard conduit from when it was built about 1902. Wiring is all new anyway.... I've added about 200 feet of conduit so far...mostly light switches for ceiling lights ( most were pull chains), added outlets and closet lights.
I've stayed away from cellulose after reading about reports from a state that inspects homes regularly that it was becoming flammable as it aged. Also, what the manufacturers don't tell you is that it smolders, so it can reignite fires. This was confirmed by a 3 generation firemen family I did work for many years ago.

I remodeled with dense pack mineral wool for these reasons. Harder to find installers versus cellulose, but they are there.

hot_rod

Solid_Fuel_Man said:

These are pictures I took of a home built in 2003. Radiant slab on grade, cedar milled log "kit" and all pine T&G interior partitions. 

Home in in a wooded area, with at least 100' in any direction to trees. 


And they have cats.... 

I was actually there to connect some radiant heat controls. There was a frozen pipe which flooded some of the house and they pulled the few courses of pine off for replacement. I saw this in pretty much every joist bay, inside. No exterior joists as it's a solid cedar wall. This place was a mouse superhighway. 

Looks more like a rat, not romex problem. Maybe a porcupine on the deck also? Any pex tube in the place. Mice will go for that especially when you put poison out, they look for water.

The Steam Whisperer

ChrisJ said:

The Steam Whisperer said:

I never quite saw the sense of NM... using a material that is lower quality than an extension cord and use it for permanent wiring. I'll admit though, I used it at our old house where just about anything was better than the wiring in most of the houses out there. A rats nest of NM stapled to the bottom of joists with 6 or more cables in a single junction box. Often no grounds connected.... and on and on. Even saw some of this in the new construction homes in the far west suburbs where it has to be approved by the inspector.

NM-B is literally THHN wire wrapped in a pvc sleeve.

There's nothing low quality about it which is why it's been so popular for the past 70 years and has an excellent track record. Except in NYC and Chicago.  Apparently you it'll defy physics and kill you in those two locations.  

Oh I know what it is. The fact that it is essentially unprotected, cannot be upgraded or replaced are the main reasons I don't like it. I suspect it may also act similarly to knob and tube during lighting strikes and catch fire ( the home next door to ours almost burnt down, but fortunately they had the wall open when the knob and tube caught fire). When we bought our current house, I pulled all the old wiring out of the conduit and pulled in new. Yes conduit is more work, but in most areas flex...BX or Greenfield... is also allowed for short runs. And conduit is required in far more areas than just Chicago and New York. I believe its required in commercial buildings in most areas of the country.
I see it a little like spray foam insulation....You put it in once and if you ever need to make changes or replace it...its no good. I don't see nm-b quite as bad as spray foam, but similarly. I think buildings are best built so they can accomodate change in use and change in technologies without having to be torn down.

Solid_Fuel_Man

@hot_rod the place was lived in by an elderly widow who wrote for a local magazine. It was sold to the new owners last year, who hired me to do the radiant controls. 

Yes, there is a staple up pex system on the second floor, and radiant slab is the first floor. No evidence of mice chewing on the PEX however.  I found lots of most skeletons in wall cavities. 

I would have gone nuts on exclusion for sure. I do not tolerate rodents at all! I have a dialed in scope.....that's all I'll say.