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teeRN1324
teeRN1324 Member Posts: 19
Does any one know in what position does this red stopcock handle need to be in,and what does this handle control being on or off..I’m asking because I noticed my zone heat problems started when I recently I had my water heater changed out. Lately my 3 zone heat is going on upstairs without being called for. I noticed this stopcock was not fully on or fully off it was in the middle so I moved it up parallel to tht pipe ,however I’m not sure if thts an open position or closed position and I don’t know what tht valve is for...does anyone know if thts suppose to be in this position..



Comments

  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 15,415
    Conventionally -- if it was installed correctly -- the handle of a ball valve is parallel with the pipe when the valve is open.

    Now. That particular valve appears, as best I can tell from the photographs, to be on a bypass line which allows some return water from the returns to mix with the feed water to them -- or, depending on valve positions and pumping rates and head loss -- to allow some of the water from the boiler to recirculate back to the boiler, rather than heading out to heat the structure. The correct position for that valve, then, is where the zones are putting out the heat you want and the boiler is feeding them the right amount of heat.

    What is the correct position for it? Haven't a clue. One would have to actively experiment with it to find the best setting.

    Many systems have similar bypass valves, but controlled by sensors for water temperature and outdoor conditions.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • Zman
    Zman Member Posts: 6,466
    Laars actually has a drawing in their install manual that looks just like that. Crazy....

    The problem is, that boiler is a low mass copper fin boiler. It needs a minimum flow rate or you will hear the snap/crackle/pop sound of little micro flashes turning to steam and collapsing in the boiler. With a zoned system, it is difficult to keep that flow rate consistent.

    The best solution would be to repipe the boiler primary/secondary.
    The second best solution would be to replace the valve with something like this which would help manage the flow https://www.supplyhouse.com/Webstone-H-75544-1-Sweat-Differential-Pressure-By-Pass-Valve
    If you are going to try to work with what you have, it is going to be trial and error. Somewhere between 1 and 2 o'clock is probably the sweet spot between the space heating and the boiler not making a racket. You will need to try it with different combinations of zone valves open vs closed until you get something you can live with.
    The nice thing about Laars boilers is the don't cost much and they are easy to carry down stairs...

    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
    STEVEusaPAmikemac52
  • delta T
    delta T Member Posts: 827
    Agree with the above comments, the valve should be "somewhere in the middle" of its range, cant say without experimenting with it. As to your problem of heat traveling to a zone that is not calling, that is likely unrelated to the position of that valve. Is your water heater an indirect style that is connected to the boiler or is it a stand alone unit? If it is connected to the boiler, then the problem could also be explained by the water heater being wired to the wrong zone valve. I tend not to believe in coincidences....
    Zman
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 8,581
    @teeRN1324

    Not a very good piping set up. But it is what you got.

    Try this. You need to get a thermometer that will give you an accurate temp reading on pipe probably 2 of them


    Turn your thermostats up so the zones are calling. With the boiler running and zones calling measure the temp inlet to the boiler and measure the outlet temp at the same time.

    Adjust the valve so that your supply temp from the boiler (the pipe with the circulator pump) is 15 degrees warmer than the return pipe.

    Your valve is in the open position now. I bet your not getting heat. You will end up with the valve closed about 1/2 way

    Best option is to add an additional circulating pump or a pressure operated valve. I would go with the pump
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 3,807
    Could someone have locked a zone valve in the open position? Check the levers on the bottom of the zone valves. 
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 2,686
    That bypass likely also interacts with the tees on the outlet of those zone valves:

    https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/183286/zone-baseboard-heat
  • teeRN1324
    teeRN1324 Member Posts: 19
    Hvacnut - how would I know if a zone valve is locked. I know the zone valve in the middle when you look at the pictures of my 3 zones it’s always the middle zone when the heat goes on tht I’m able to easily move the lever back and forth.the other levers aren’t opened ....I’m just a female with ZERO clue about heating terms,I know some things just from lately looking online. So esp the others tht responded to my post I appreciate your response but I’m clueless as to what is being suggested to me..i just thought tht ballcock valve would be an easy answer but I guess it’s not. Lol.I know the majority have told me the set up sucks,and it gets me crazy because it’s a new construction house so you think being the walls were opened you would pipe everything perfect....I’m sure when the guy tht changed the hot water heater probably didn’t open or close it correctly and thts why zones were getting heat when they shouldn’t .esp being he did my heater in 20 mins flat because he was in a rush..thts another nightmare
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 3,807
    If the lever moves freely then the motor powered the valve open. 
    Is the water heater separate from the boiler, meaning it has its own chimney, or does the boiler heat the tank?
    Turn off the power to the boiler. If the valve closes (the lever shouldn't move freely) then its wiring (a short) or possibly a bad thermostat. 
    If the valve does close when you turn off the power, if you're handy, you can start by removing the W wire from the problem zone's thermostat. Turn off the power first. Keep the wire from touching anything else and turn the power back on. If the valve is closed, then the thermostat is faulty. If the valve opens, it's somewhere in the wiring between the thermostat and zone valve. 
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 8,581
    @teeRN1324

    The real fix in my opinion is to take out the ball valve and install a Caleffi #519 differential bypass valve.

    @hot_rod is the expert on those valves maybe he will respond.

    In any event this is a simple fix. All the work is at the boiler no need to repipe or open up walls.

    You could check "find a contractor" on this site and post your location. Someone may know someone near you who can help out
    teeRN1324
  • teeRN1324
    teeRN1324 Member Posts: 19
    Hvacnut,sorry didn’t get back to you......I’m a nurse so when I get home late I’m exhausted from wearing this crap PPE all day....so the zone valves when the heat comes on only the middle valve is able to be moved freely (I have 3 zones).sending you a pic of water heater ...tht ballcock valve I was asking what position it should be in the other day,I moved it in a down position which I believe from previous pics I took thts where it was suppose to be b4 this idiot water heater guy came and changed out my water tank, now when the

    heat clicks on I hear clicks in the zone valve like it’s trying to open....so I guess for the 19th time I’m going to have to call heater guy,because the heat going on upstairs at night is to much...I never put heat on upstairs when I sleep,I only keep it on the middle floor ..
  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 1,911
    @teeRN1324
    Where is this boiler? there may be someone close.
    teeRN1324
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 3,807
    The water heater installation should really have no bearing on the heating issue unless someone played with the bypass valve. 
    If the lever for the problem zone never closes then its either the zone valve itself, the wiring, or the thermostat. 
    I would also ask the installer to make the flue 4 inch on the water heater instead of the 3 inch that's there.
    teeRN1324
  • teeRN1324
    teeRN1324 Member Posts: 19
    Hvacnut, I figured the hot water heater shouldn’t have anything to do with the boiler but when I saw tht ballcock valve positioned in the middle I figured when he was shutting off the water and gas maybe he touched tht valve and never truly fully opened it or closed it(however it was originally positioned). the heater guy is coming Monday so I will give him all this advice from you and previous posts...he is an older gentleman doing this for a while so I thought maybe he would know exactly what to do but he couldn’t figure out why I was getting those clicking sounds and was saying the temperature of something was more then it should be (he said it was not dangerous🤦🏻‍♀️🤷🏼‍♀️ ..and he thinks the people tht built this house labeled those zones pipes incorrectly because the heat was on in the living room and the tube (those orange tubes in pictures above) labeled master bedroom was getting hot...
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 3,807
    Let us know how you make out.
    teeRN1324
  • teeRN1324
    teeRN1324 Member Posts: 19
    edited February 27
    Soooooo woke up this morning to a loud bang ,I ran to my boiler and the pex line came off the header when my heat clicked on and hot steaming pressurized water was shooting all over...ughhhhh.. thankfully I got it before to much damage...but what makes me crazy insane is why do these hvac guys charge so much.....I’m going to show the photo ,just to cut a pex line maybe 4in long and clamping it in 2 areas they charged me $..pex line is 050cents to 2 dollars for a linear ft...come on thts a rip off....then the zones weren’t working correctly and tht clicking noise I had they said it seemed like the circular pump was going in reverse and tht needed changing and charged another $. Now tht I understand the price but not for pex line....it’s a shame because they got you by the balls,the guy was like it’s up to you if you want to do it,wellllllll my pipe is hanging up in the air and bent and I’m a female with no experience in this so I don’t have a choice I need a fix....
  • teeRN1324
    teeRN1324 Member Posts: 19

  • teeRN1324
    teeRN1324 Member Posts: 19

  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 2,686
    I hope that picture with the conduit connector not screwed in to the circulator is a before picture?

    We aren't allowed to talk price here for a lot of reasons, one big one being because the cost of doing business in various areas is vastly different.
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 3,807
    So that's two boiler related instances since the water heater was replaced. 
    Did they explain how the circulator was going in reverse? Even if it was pumping the wrong direction, it wouldn't burn it out in this case. 
    Newer Pex just splitting for no apparent reason?
    The wrong size flue in the water heater, the electrical connector not secure in the circulator. Which also look like they replaced the motor only, not the body.
    You might want to start taking names and knocking some heads. Do you have the old circulator and "faulty" piece of pex?
    I'm ok for coincidence here and there, but something stinks here.
  • psb75
    psb75 Member Posts: 344
    What would cause that last Pert line on the return to blow out and need a repair? Over pressurized? Why would they put a new ECM motor on the former pump body/volute?
    Probably because there is no valve on the "feed" side of the circulator. That bad MC electrical connection on the circulator is a sign of "haste"--from spending too much time on switching the motor from the new volute and putting it on the old one. Something is "rotten in Denmark". No wait, that would be Grundfos, not Taco.
  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 1,911
    teeRN1324 said:

    Soooooo woke up this morning to a loud bang ,I ran to my boiler and the pex line came off the header when my heat clicked on and hot steaming pressurized water was shooting all over...ughhhhh.. thankfully I got it before to much damage...but what makes me crazy insane is why do these hvac guys charge so much.....I’m going to show the photo ,just to cut a pex line maybe 4in long and clamping it in 2 areas they charged me $***..pex line is ***cents to * dollars for a linear ft...come on thts a rip off....then the zones weren’t working correctly and tht clicking noise I had they said it seemed like the circular pump was going in reverse and tht needed changing and charged another $***. Now tht I understand the price but not for pex line....it’s a shame because they got you by the balls,the guy was like it’s up to you if you want to do it,wellllllll my pipe is hanging up in the air and bent and I’m a female with no experience in this so I don’t have a choice I need a fix....

    The tech gets paid
    He / She drives a expensive vehicle
    Insurance
    office rent
    office staff
    You pay 3 to 4 times the cost of actual food at a restaurant are they overcharging?
    Call the contractor back and ask them WHY!

  • teeRN1324
    teeRN1324 Member Posts: 19
    edited February 27
    You know I said the same thing when I took the picture of the new pump ,it looked like it wasn’t screwed in like you guys noticed in the picture ....I see the wires are connected under it so looks like it just needs to be screwed back in but the Amt of money they charged me they are coming back today to screw tht **** in....not sure if tht is dangerous to be unscrewed like tht?
    They said the pump might be in reverse because some zones weren’t getting heat..we turned on the heat upstairs and only some baseboards were not hot at all...but there were 2 techs and they were talking hvac crap with each other and were trying to give me layman’s terms so I understand.
    Remember when I was asking the forum what position should the ballcock valve be in ,because it was sitting half open half closed and i thought the guy tht replaced my water heater maybe never turned it on like he should ,well I had it down which apparently was opened and I have small pipes coming out of the zones and big pipes where the water goes to into the zones (best I could explain) so I guess the valve should of been the way it was half and half, it probably was to much pressure going into tht particular valve tht blew off..
    Hvacnut, no I don’t have the piece of pex they cut off, it was about 4in they cut and put on new 4in piece ....
    Just didn’t think tht called for $$$ but they have you by the balls ,I wasn’t going to call around for another company to come because to me tht looked like it needed fixing ASAP......now I have to call him back to screw this conduit connector in....I’m not touching anything anymore.
  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 1,911
    If there going to leave the electrical like that then charge you to come back and repair it I wouldn't pay them PERIOD!

    Sounds like todays parts changers with little if any training and knowledge. Maybe time to find better techs!
    teeRN1324
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 8,191
    RN, does the arrow on the pump point down towards the boiler?

    Does anyone here know if the ports on the boiler are labeled "in" and "out".
    And does the boiler require the pump to pump into the boiler (like ModCons)?

    If they just changed the motor, they could have rotated it 180 to have the connector come into the bottom KO and not put the stretch to the flex.
  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 1,911
    JUGHNE said:

    RN, does the arrow on the pump point down towards the boiler?

    Does anyone here know if the ports on the boiler are labeled "in" and "out".
    And does the boiler require the pump to pump into the boiler (like ModCons)?

    If they just changed the motor, they could have rotated it 180 to have the connector come into the bottom KO and not put the stretch to the flex.

    From the looks of the volute that pump is pumping down into the boiler.
    rick in Alaska
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 6,333
    There's a lot of confusion and some misinformation flying around here.

    I hope you've gotten the bypass ball valve adjusted correctly. As stated correctly by others, the valve should be partially closed or else no water will be diverted to the system, it will just bypass back into the boiler.

    IDK where the idea started that only the motor assembly of the pump was replaced and the old volute was re-used - that's not true. Simply comparing the pics you can see that the old volute was green and the new one is black. I'm not even sure that the new ECM motor would fit the old volute.

    A small wet rotor circulator cannot turn backwards unless something of greater power forced it to. There's nothing in you system that could do that. So, what that "tech" told you is wrong and you probably didn't need a new circulator. A circulator can be installed "backwards" so that it's pumping in the wrong direction, but that's just a matter of turning it around the right way.

    Although only 4" of tubing was replaced, there's more involved like draining, refilling and purging the system of air which can be time-consuming. You need to understand that you're not just paying for a few inches of tubing, but for the mechanics time, training, tools, truck, and all the business overhead that's associated with it. Most service companies in this industry run 50-60% overhead. It's the cost of doing business and it has to be covered to stay in business.

    But on the flip side, you're entitled to getting a competent mechanic when you pay that price. I question whether you did.
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
    mattmia2CanuckerHVACNUTSuperTech
  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 1,911
    edited February 27
    Ironman said:




    IDK where the idea started that only the motor assembly of the pump was replaced and the old volute was re-used - that's not true. Simply comparing the pics you can see that the old volute was green and the new one is black. I'm not even sure that the new ECM motor would fit the old volute.


    But on the flip side, you're entitled to getting a competent mechanic when you pay that price. I question whether you did.

    Good eyes on that one @Ironman

    Cant see what direction the old one was but is is on the return so!
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 2,686
    teeRN1324 said:

    You know I said the same thing when I took the picture of the new pump ,it looked like it wasn’t screwed in like you guys noticed in the picture ....I see the wires are connected under it so looks like it just needs to be screwed back in but the Amt of money they charged me they are coming back today to screw tht **** in....not sure if tht is dangerous to be unscrewed like tht?

    Let's start with the number one answer to this. it is unquestionably a violation of the electrical code.

    Is it dangerous? There is a very small possibility that it could start a fire or electrify something. The most likely adverse outcome is that it would become disconnected and just stop working or short to the grounded body of the boiler and trip the breaker. Most likely it would never cause a problem. A professional would never leave it like that. They might temporarily hook it up like that if they didn't have the right hardware, but they would arrange to come back with the right hardware, they would not represent the job as complete.

    If I contracted someone to do this and the work happened while i was not there and I was presented with a bill for it and saw this, i would not pay it. I am trying to decide if it were me if I would give them a chance to come back and fix it for no additional charge or if i simply would not pay them and find a professional to do the work. If they did something as obvious as this that clearly is not correct, I don't know what else they did that was wrong that is harder to see,

    pecmsgteeRN1324Ironman
  • rick in Alaska
    rick in Alaska Member Posts: 1,165
    That pex can not blow out because of the pump pressure. It is just not that powerful. However, I wonder about you saying it was blowing out hot steaming water. If the boiler did not shut off at the right temperature and went to steam, or if the boiler pressure dropped enough to make it go to steam, then the pex could overheat, swell up, and blow out. Either of these conditions is a very unsafe condition and needs to be addressed right away before you go any further.
    As far as the pump wire goes, all that needed to be done was rotate the motor end of the pump 180 degrees, which would make the electrical connection on the lower left, and also make it so the label was right side up, which is just more of a visual thing for me. Professionalism.
    On a side note, please watch your language out of respect for the owner of this site and others on it. Thank you .
    Rick
    teeRN1324
  • teeRN1324
    teeRN1324 Member Posts: 19
    Thank you guys for the info....the tech came back today and he said “we were having trouble with tht connection yest and figured we would hear back from you today...,he knew what needed to be done and whatever piece he needed he already had it in his hand as he walked in ....talk about poor work ethic, if they knew yest then I ask why would both techs obviously just shrug their shoulders and say “oh well if they notice it popped off we will come back “and have no concern about the safety aspect or just professionalism or just plain and simple make sure the job is completed correctly being tht your charging the client 50-60% overhead costs.
    When I care for a pt I make sure I treat them as if it was a family member and want the best for them,I answer all questions ,I prescribe all meds they need to treat every aspect of their disease process ,why can’t I find a company that doesn’t see a female and say “oh she won’t know if we don’t do this correctly”..if it wasn’t for this group I might not have called them back. What makes me so angry is he literally said he knew he left it like tht. Come on really! I’m trusting them to do the right thing and all the posts from you guys tell me differently ..did they fix the issue —-sure —-so far every thing is working but it could have been done alot better ,and I’m sure they left something out tht should of been done I’m sure of it....
    Well, I thank you all guys so much for your input,hopefully I have no other issues happen. yesterday after this happened with the pex line flying off the header ,I left to go to my office to see patients and I got a flat tire and needed a tow truck to take me to the dealer ,thank god the tow truck driver who came to get my car was a saint ,he said because of covid he couldn’t take me in his truck with him to drive back to dealer, with some convincing with my great personality and me being in the medical field he said ,after all you are doing with people with covid I can’t leave you here ,so thankfully he took me.
    If I ever have to call another hvac company I pray from all the good deeds I’m doing with caring for these covid patients tht someone will do the right thing and think of it as your fixing your moms,sister,or aunts system and do the job efficiently and accurately and if you know something isn’t right fix then not “when” or “if” the home owner notices it.....I know not all companies are like the ones I called but where I live I’ve called about 5 companies and not one ever did the right thing..and it didn’t help they always sent me a young teenager with little experience to even know how to fix....
    Thank you have a great weekend everyone.
  • bucksnort
    bucksnort Member Posts: 73
    edited February 27
    We could start another thread about how the medical or any other profession has their losers and winners. Also the prices charged. Price for a Tylenol vs pump gasket and emergency call at 2 A.M. with water flooding the basement. There is an estimation of 3-400K people that have their lives cut short each year in the medical field because of mistakes. You just found a company I wouldn't let back in my house but then I, with my health PP have to accept what they throw at me for care.
    Find out through vetting with friends or neighbors who they use for competent and reasonable service rates for their equipment. I can't recall the last time I saw a menu of prices when I went in for health care.
    teeRN1324SuperTech
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 3,807
    Ironman said:
    IDK where the idea started that only the motor assembly of the pump was replaced and the old volute was re-used - that's not true. 
    Yeah I own that one. A poor assumption when I saw black and green. Apologies. 
    However, I am convinced that the OP was taken for a ride. It started with the water heater installation, when somehow, the diverter valve on the boiler was moved. It went downhill from there. 
    teeRN1324Ironman
  • teeRN1324
    teeRN1324 Member Posts: 19
    edited February 28
    mattmia2 said:

    Let's start with the number one answer to this. it is unquestionably a violation of the electrical code.

    teeRN1324 said:

    You know I said the same thing when I took the picture of the new pump ,it looked like it wasn’t screwed in like you guys noticed in the picture ....I see the wires are connected under it so looks like it just needs to be screwed back in but the Amt of money they charged me they are coming back today to screw tht **** in....not sure if tht is dangerous to be unscrewed like tht?


    Just curious Mattmia2, what makes you say it’s a violation of electrical code....was it the way they put the new pump on?
  • psb75
    psb75 Member Posts: 344
    I checked a picture of another Laars Mini-Therm elsewhere online. The boiler in this Wall thread does have the circulator on the return pipe pumping into the boiler. Zone valves are on the supply side. The ball valve between the S and R manifolds is there as a balancing valve. Its handle position would be fairly critical. All the way open...doesn't look good for delivering heat to all zones.
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 2,686
    The connector needs to be secured to the box as part of its installation instructions.
  • JakeCK
    JakeCK Member Posts: 158
    edited March 1
    No offense to the many honest, hardworking professionals on this site but this is why I do 99% of the work around my home my self... The truth is there are 100 idiots/hacks for every 10 decent professionals. And of those 10 you'll find maybe 1 true expert. 

    That leaves us homeowners to vet those professionals. And like they say, you don't know what you don't know. How can you vet the knowledge and experience of someone when you aren't familiar with the material yourself? At least when I mess up I own it...
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 6,333
    edited March 1
    JakeCK said:
    No offense to the many honest, hardworking professionals on this site but this is why I do 99% of the work around my home my self... The truth is there are 100 idiots/hacks for every 10 decent professionals. And of those 10 you'll find maybe 1 true expert. 

    That leaves us homeowners to vet those professionals. And like they say, you don't know what you don't know. How can you vet the knowledge and experience of someone when you aren't familiar with the material yourself? At least when I mess up I own it...
    A lot of truth there. Unfortunately, there are very few real tradesmen who take pride in their work anymore or even care about learning their trade.

    To me, it’s a lack of basic honesty and integrity.
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
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