Gas piping

pecmsg

The issue is as pipes get hit, banged, moved unions can loosen fittings are more forgiving. 

When at the unit after the shutoff less of an issue!

During my time in the city they weren’t allowed even on steam, only Flanges. 

mattmia2

1. I have had problems with no brand chinese ground joint unions that wouldn't seal.
2. The piping can torque as it expands and contracts with temp and as the building moves depending on how it is arranged, over time that can back the nut off.

Intplm.

You could bring up the term as I have seen it in the code books..... "Readily accessible". Might pass if brought to the inspector's attention. After all, this term does apply to the described location of the union.

CFH

Change the code to prohibit unions if they are so dangerous. Why bother having a code if someone is going to make up their own version even though there is a clearly written version. NFPA 54 2006 clearly had unions in the code and they were in a separate section from the appliance shut off valves, the code should be the code. 40+ years of inspections there were a lot of different versions of the same code. If you read below it says if a item is not specifically prohibited by the NYS fuel gas code it is allowed.

[NY] 104.2 Waivers, variances, and modifications. Noth-
ing in this code shall be construed as permitting any building
official or any authority having jurisdiction to waive, vary,
modify, or otherwise alter any provision or requirement of
this code or any other provision or requirement of the Uni-
form Code. Provisions or requirements of the Uniform Code
may be varied or modified only in accordance with proce-
dures established by Part 1205 or by such other regulations
as may hereafter be promulgated by the Secretary of State
pursuant to Section 381(1)(f) of the Executive Law
[NY] 104.3 Alternative materials, equipment, appliances,
designs, and methods of construction. The provisions of
this code are not intended to prevent the installation of any
materials, equipment, or appliances not specifically pre-
scribed by this code, or to prohibit any designs or methods of
construction not specifically prescribed by this code, pro-
vided that such alternative materials, equipment, appliances,
designs, or methods of construction (1) are not specifically
prohibited by any provision of this code, by any other provi-
sion of the Uniform Code, or by the Energy Code and (2)
shall have been approved, in writing, by the building official.
Alternative materials, equipment, appliances, designs, or
methods of construction may be approved only when the
building official shall have determined, in writing, that such
alternative is:
1. Satisfactory and complies with the intent of the provi-
sions and requirements of the Uniform Code, and
2. Not less than the equivalent of that prescribed in the
Uniform Code in quality, strength, effectiveness, fire
resistance, durability, and safety.
Nothing in this section shall be construed as permitting any
building official or any authority having jurisdiction to
waive, vary, modify or otherwise alter any provision or
requirement of this code or any other provision or require-
ment of the Uniform Code. Provisions or requirements of the
Uniform Code may be varied or modified only pursuant to
procedures established in Part 1205 or by such other regula-
tions as may hereafter be promulgated by the Secretary of
State pursuant to Section 381(1)(f) of the Executive Law

CFH

ok

mattmia2

CFH said:

Change the code to prohibit unions if they are so dangerous. Inspectors do not write the codes in NYS, Why bother having a code if someone is going to make up their own version even though there is a clearly written version. NFPA 54 2006 clearly had unions in the code and they were in a separate section from the appliance shut off valves, the code should be the code. 40+ years of inspections there were a lot of different versions of the same code. While I was getting a generator inspected I was discussing the sediment trap built into the Generac generators that make them easy to pipe. The inspector replied that they were discussing that and may require an additional sediment trap outside the generator, the code states they are only required if they are not built into the appliance. Was that new rule another way to fail a good plumber for no reason causing them to get another inspection and redoing piping that is not necessary. Inspectors do not write codes in NYS. The code is clear on sediment traps

Also usually prohibited where the water in them could freeze.

Tim McElwain

NFPA 54 Section 404.3

404.3 Piping in concealed locations. Portions of a piping system installed in concealed locations shall not have unions, tubing fittings, right and left couplings, bushings, compression couplings and swing joints made by combinations of fittings.

CFH

Is that 404.3 the NYC fuel gas code.
Here is the NYS version

404.3 Prohibited locations. Piping shall not be installed in
or through a ducted supply, return or exhaust, or a clothes
chute, chimney or gas vent, dumbwaiter or elevator shaft.
Piping installed downstream of the point of delivery shall not
extend through any townhouse unit other than the unit served
by such piping.
404.4 Piping in solid partitions and walls. Concealed pip-
ing shall not be located in solid partitions and solid walls,
unless installed in a chase or casing.
404.5 Fittings in concealed locations. Fittings installed in
concealed locations shall be limited to the following types:
1. Threaded elbows, tees and couplings.
2. Brazed fittings.
3. Welded fittings.
4. Fittings listed to ANSI LC-1/CSA 6.26 or ANSI LC-4/
CSA 6.32


It does not state unions are prohibited.

I think the code you are looking for is

Unions are strictly prohibited. Exception when the union is located downstream from the appliance shut off
valve.

Please read below about prohibited fittings, The NYS Fuel gas code is pretty clear if it is not prohibited it is allowed

[NY] 104.2 Waivers, variances, and modifications. Noth-
ing in this code shall be construed as permitting any building
official or any authority having jurisdiction to waive, vary,
modify, or otherwise alter any provision or requirement of
this code or any other provision or requirement of the Uni-
form Code. Provisions or requirements of the Uniform Code
may be varied or modified only in accordance with proce-
dures established by Part 1205 or by such other regulations
as may hereafter be promulgated by the Secretary of State
pursuant to Section 381(1)(f) of the Executive Law
[NY] 104.3 Alternative materials, equipment, appliances,
designs, and methods of construction. The provisions of
this code are not intended to prevent the installation of any
materials, equipment, or appliances not specifically pre-
scribed by this code, or to prohibit any designs or methods of
construction not specifically prescribed by this code, pro-
vided that such alternative materials, equipment, appliances,
designs, or methods of construction (1) are not specifically
prohibited by any provision of this code, by any other provi-
sion of the Uniform Code, or by the Energy Code and (2)
shall have been approved, in writing, by the building official.
Alternative materials, equipment, appliances, designs, or
methods of construction may be approved only when the
building official shall have determined, in writing, that such
alternative is:
1. Satisfactory and complies with the intent of the provi-
sions and requirements of the Uniform Code, and
2. Not less than the equivalent of that prescribed in the
Uniform Code in quality, strength, effectiveness, fire
resistance, durability, and safety.
Nothing in this section shall be construed as permitting any
building official or any authority having jurisdiction to
waive, vary, modify or otherwise alter any provision or
requirement of this code or any other provision or require-
ment of the Uniform Code. Provisions or requirements of the
Uniform Code may be varied or modified only pursuant to
procedures established in Part 1205 or by such other regula-
tions as may hereafter be promulgated by the Secretary of
State pursuant to Section 381(1)(f) of the Executive Law

ChrisJ

CFH said:

Is that 404.3 the NYC fuel gas code.
Here is the NYS version

404.3 Prohibited locations. Piping shall not be installed in
or through a ducted supply, return or exhaust, or a clothes
chute, chimney or gas vent, dumbwaiter or elevator shaft.
Piping installed downstream of the point of delivery shall not
extend through any townhouse unit other than the unit served
by such piping.
404.4 Piping in solid partitions and walls. Concealed pip-
ing shall not be located in solid partitions and solid walls,
unless installed in a chase or casing.
404.5 Fittings in concealed locations. Fittings installed in
concealed locations shall be limited to the following types:
1. Threaded elbows, tees and couplings.
2. Brazed fittings.
3. Welded fittings.
4. Fittings listed to ANSI LC-1/CSA 6.26 or ANSI LC-4/
CSA 6.32


It does not state unions are prohibited.

I think the code you are looking for is

Unions are strictly prohibited. Exception when the union is located downstream from the appliance shut off
valve.

Under #1 I do not see unions listed there.
Do they count under #4?

pecmsg

ChrisJ said:

CFH said:

Is that 404.3 the NYC fuel gas code.
Here is the NYS version

404.3 Prohibited locations. Piping shall not be installed in
or through a ducted supply, return or exhaust, or a clothes
chute, chimney or gas vent, dumbwaiter or elevator shaft.
Piping installed downstream of the point of delivery shall not
extend through any townhouse unit other than the unit served
by such piping.
404.4 Piping in solid partitions and walls. Concealed pip-
ing shall not be located in solid partitions and solid walls,
unless installed in a chase or casing.
404.5 Fittings in concealed locations. Fittings installed in
concealed locations shall be limited to the following types:
1. Threaded elbows, tees and couplings.
2. Brazed fittings.
3. Welded fittings.
4. Fittings listed to ANSI LC-1/CSA 6.26 or ANSI LC-4/
CSA 6.32


It does not state unions are prohibited.

I think the code you are looking for is

Unions are strictly prohibited. Exception when the union is located downstream from the appliance shut off
valve.

Under #1 I do not see unions listed there.
Do they count under #4?

Thats up to the inspector!

Here NOT allowed except between the shut off and appliance.

ChrisJ

@pecmsg I didn't know you were in NYC?
I always assumed you were out west for some reason.

pecmsg

100 miles east. The north fork of the isle of long.

CFH

I look up the standards for unions and I did not find any ANSI only ASME. I did not notice that part but now I will check and see. I think the 1st one is csst and the 2nd one is press fittings

rick in Alaska

"I don't understand why it seems like so many have problems with unions leaking. Especially at such low pressures.
Keep the mating surfaces clean and undamaged and tighten it properly and it shouldn't leak. It's also not going to just start leaking or become loose all on it's own. Is it?"



Unless you buy a high dollar union, they are very hard to get to seal up. Kind of like trying to get a street 90 to seal. I usually smear a little dope on the mating surfaces and on the threads just to get a little bit of "lube" on the parts to get them to tighten easier. I have tried loose fitting, and 2 24 " wrenches to get them to seal, and it is a crap shoot if they do. When they don't seal, I take a hammer and rap the nut and it will allow it to tighten up a bit more.
Also, if you install them in an earthquake prone area, things do move.
I used them, but only as a last resort.
Come to think of it, we ordered some unions about 20 years ago and they sent the wrong ones. These were black and had rubber washers inside like a garden hose. They were really well built and worked great. Not sure if they could have been used on gas though, but most likely would.
Rick

dullknife1

Uou have the national fuel, gas code, you have the international fuel gas code, and you also have the authority of jurisdiction. Sometimes they all read like a lawyers, manuscript   They all slightly differ in slightly different procedures go with common sense, if it doesn’t seem safe, don’t do it or just question yourself, would you vent a dryer or heater flue in your crawlspace? Home runs are home runs for a reason.

CFH

What if the union manufacture specified the torque required to tighten the union so it does not come loose? An example would be the torque required for the bolts attaching a flywheel to a automobile engine. I would think the flywheel would be subject to more vibrations then a union. What about lug nuts on cars are tires falling off all over the place? If you applied locktite to the threads of the union would unions be allowed. What if you were provided with a octagon retaining ring the size of the male section of the union the had 8 bendable fingers that wrapped around the nut of the union making it impossible for the union to loosen, would unions be allowed then? The retaining ring would be of perfect design and the union could never loosen for the sake of argument.. I do not think this discussion is about personal preferences but does the code prohibit unions and are inspectors reinterpreting the appliance shut off section of the code in a way that prohibits unions. If you look at the 2006 code there are 2 sections one referring to unions that are punched to prevent loosening and the section on appliance shut off valves. They are completely different items. The earlier versions of the codes specifically stated what items were allowed. With so many new products available today they no longer do that.
In the 1980s PVC piping was allowed for underground waste piping not for underground vents. The reason was that underground waste piping listed PVC but the underground vent section did not. Any sane person would see that this was a clerical error but the inspectors would fail you. The NYS Fuel gas code does not prohibit unions.
If you hate unions have the code changed to “Unions strictly prohibited except”

ChrisJ

rick in Alaska said:

"I don't understand why it seems like so many have problems with unions leaking. Especially at such low pressures.
Keep the mating surfaces clean and undamaged and tighten it properly and it shouldn't leak. It's also not going to just start leaking or become loose all on it's own. Is it?"



Unless you buy a high dollar union, they are very hard to get to seal up. Kind of like trying to get a street 90 to seal. I usually smear a little dope on the mating surfaces and on the threads just to get a little bit of "lube" on the parts to get them to tighten easier. I have tried loose fitting, and 2 24 " wrenches to get them to seal, and it is a crap shoot if they do. When they don't seal, I take a hammer and rap the nut and it will allow it to tighten up a bit more.
Also, if you install them in an earthquake prone area, things do move.
I used them, but only as a last resort.
Come to think of it, we ordered some unions about 20 years ago and they sent the wrong ones. These were black and had rubber washers inside like a garden hose. They were really well built and worked great. Not sure if they could have been used on gas though, but most likely would.
Rick

For gas and air piping I use Ward unions.
I don't think I've ever had one leak. Though I admit I don't use near the volume many do on here.

Just a few days ago I had 1/2" brass nipples with factory threads leak at 2 joints on compressed air at 120 psi. I had to pull them completely apart, use PTFE tape + dope and tighten the hell out of them. I'm still surprised by that, I usually have very good luck with brass pipe and fittings.

But never a union, so far. Now that I opened my mouth............

CFH

The brass without the lead does not tighten like the brass with the lead. 95% of the time if i do not used dope and tape it will leak.

CFH

There is nothing wrong with unions. Some inspectors interpret the code as sayings unions are prohibited unless they are installed after an appliance shut off valve.. Some of the other members are trying to figure out why this is happening. I am stating the NYS fuel gas code does not prohibit unions and if needed should be allowed. I personally try not to use them, why spend the money on a extra fitting but they are not prohibited in the NYS fuel gas code.

[NY] 104.2 Waivers, variances, and modifications. Noth-
ing in this code shall be construed as permitting any building
official or any authority having jurisdiction to waive, vary,
modify, or otherwise alter any provision or requirement of
this code or any other provision or requirement of the Uni-
form Code. Provisions or requirements of the Uniform Code
may be varied or modified only in accordance with proce-
dures established by Part 1205 or by such other regulations
as may hereafter be promulgated by the Secretary of State
pursuant to Section 381(1)(f) of the Executive Law
[NY] 104.3 Alternative materials, equipment, appliances,
designs, and methods of construction. The provisions of
this code are not intended to prevent the installation of any
materials, equipment, or appliances not specifically pre-
scribed by this code, or to prohibit any designs or methods of
construction not specifically prescribed by this code, pro-
vided that such alternative materials, equipment, appliances,
designs, or methods of construction (1) are not specifically
prohibited by any provision of this code, by any other provi-
sion of the Uniform Code, or by the Energy Code and (2)
shall have been approved, in writing, by the building official.
Alternative materials, equipment, appliances, designs, or
methods of construction may be approved only when the
building official shall have determined, in writing, that such
alternative is:
1. Satisfactory and complies with the intent of the provi-
sions and requirements of the Uniform Code, and
2. Not less than the equivalent of that prescribed in the
Uniform Code in quality, strength, effectiveness, fire
resistance, durability, and safety.
Nothing in this section shall be construed as permitting any
building official or any authority having jurisdiction to
waive, vary, modify or otherwise alter any provision or
requirement of this code or any other provision or require-
ment of the Uniform Code. Provisions or requirements of the
Uniform Code may be varied or modified only pursuant to
procedures established in Part 1205 or by such other regula-
tions as may hereafter be promulgated by the Secretary of
State pursuant to Section 381(1)(f) of the Executive Law

CFH

Mad Dog_2 said:

You may feel good "showing up" the inspector, but trust me, your Victory will be Short-lived.  I work in The 5 Boros of NYC and Long Island 🏝..   No inspector wants to see a union ANYWHERE but downstream of a Gas cock AND at the appliance.  Their reasoning is sound: They don't want to make it so easy for a Homeowner, DIYer, or Jack Leg GC to attempt gas work. Left and Right couplings and nipples don't stand out like a big chunky ground joint union...they also  baffle the Heck out of anyone who has never put one together successfully ha ha. Gennady is 100% right.  With the news gas rules, the party is OVER with any gas repairs & installations.  The Licensed Master plumbers hands have been shackled.Once again, the pendulum swings too far one way..then they other....over the top in my opinion.  In the 1970s and 198os it was a free for all:  Plumbers would spilt up houses to make 2 family and even have a 3rd meter for the illegal basement apartment.  The gas utility loved it and would hang meters with a phone call.  Oil to gas conversion?? No problem...no permits...no gas pressure test,, Leave the oil tank in the lawn...no big deal.  Mid 1990s that started to change..  Now Licensed plumbers are being punished for all the Unlicensed guys,, GCs and Homeowners who did their own work and left leaks and in NYC a few years ago,, blew up buildings. Tightening up enforcement is great, punishing the Licensed plumber ONLY hurts the Public who will be left LONG periods without heat,, hot water and cooking gas...😠 Mad Dog 🐕 

I am not trying to feel good showing up the inspector the code should be the code.You should not have to guess if you will pass a inspection or not. There are not that many pages in the code. If every one read the code now that they are readily available to view for free online and spoke up there would be less of a Russian Roulette to inspections. You seem like a pretty knowledgeable plumber. Don't you think you should share your knowledge with the others to prevent these types of traps. We can always petition to have the code changed to "exclude unions except" in NYS but until then they are not prohibited.

Please read below and show me where unions are prohibited and if not let me know how an inspector can change the code even though the code says otherwise

[NY] 104.2 Waivers, variances, and modifications. Noth-
ing in this code shall be construed as permitting any building
official or any authority having jurisdiction to waive, vary,
modify, or otherwise alter any provision or requirement of
this code or any other provision or requirement of the Uni-
form Code. Provisions or requirements of the Uniform Code
may be varied or modified only in accordance with proce-
dures established by Part 1205 or by such other regulations
as may hereafter be promulgated by the Secretary of State
pursuant to Section 381(1)(f) of the Executive Law
[NY] 104.3 Alternative materials, equipment, appliances,
designs, and methods of construction. The provisions of
this code are not intended to prevent the installation of any
materials, equipment, or appliances not specifically pre-
scribed by this code, or to prohibit any designs or methods of
construction not specifically prescribed by this code, pro-
vided that such alternative materials, equipment, appliances,
designs, or methods of construction (1) are not specifically
prohibited by any provision of this code, by any other provi-
sion of the Uniform Code, or by the Energy Code and (2)
shall have been approved, in writing, by the building official.
Alternative materials, equipment, appliances, designs, or
methods of construction may be approved only when the
building official shall have determined, in writing, that such
alternative is:
1. Satisfactory and complies with the intent of the provi-
sions and requirements of the Uniform Code, and
2. Not less than the equivalent of that prescribed in the
Uniform Code in quality, strength, effectiveness, fire
resistance, durability, and safety.
Nothing in this section shall be construed as permitting any
building official or any authority having jurisdiction to
waive, vary, modify or otherwise alter any provision or
requirement of this code or any other provision or require-
ment of the Uniform Code. Provisions or requirements of the
Uniform Code may be varied or modified only pursuant to
procedures established in Part 1205 or by such other regula-
tions as may hereafter be promulgated by the Secretary of
State pursuant to Section 381(1)(f) of the Executive Law

dullknife1

I’m new here, so I really don’t want to upset anyone but, it has been my experience that the union is not at fault. It is the contractor who installs the union is at fault, especially the contractor who is an eighth of an inch short on his cut in the crawlspace. So he sent his apprentice out to get the pipe stretcher and that worked for a little while. And then a man like me who worked for a gas utility had to go back and repair what the contractor who’s pipe stretcher didn’t work left 
can you please if you can send me a picture of that 18 inch torque wrench for gas pipe fittings

CFH

If the code wanted to prohibit unions it would state "unions are strictly prohibited except" The NYS fuel gas code does not do that. I am not talking about personal preference or theories I am talking about the code. I am talking about being able to read the code install the piping the way it is written and passing the inspection you should pass. I am not talking about personal preferences or opinions of inspectors or plumbers. I am talking about being able to run a business and make a living. Can you please review the code NYS fuel gas code and tell me where unions are prohibited. Here is the link. https://dos.ny.gov/system/files/documents/2020/09/2020-fgcnys-november-2019.pdf. I am on you side if you are a plumber. If I am incorrect I will apologize and remove my post. If your are a inspector and I am wrong I will say my account was hacked. If you are trying to find a specific section hit ctrl f. That brings up the search. Type in unions or whatever you want to find and it will search the document for any time that term is used. Check section 103.1 and see how inspectors are allowed to interpret the code. They mention Nassau County. Show it to a lawyer friend and see if they are allowed to come up with their own versions. Inspectors do not write codes or laws legislators do. Email the section 103,1 and asked them to show you the section of the code they are referring to and see what happens. The answer we always did it that way is not valid. When I took the class for my NYC license people would say that is not how we do it in the field. The teacher would say this is the code this is the answer. If you want to pass use this answer. If you want to fail answer they way it is done in the field. The code should be the answer no personal preferences.

dullknife1

One last  bite to chew on. There is always a chance of freezing in a gas service. As we all know water runs downhill,  not if, but when we get a crack in the gas main we get water seepage into that main that’s why we put drip legs at the lower end of the mains. Sometimes they fill up before they get pumped out, when this happens, the possibility of gas flowing to a house service will pick up the moisture and freeze going through the outside, shut off cock or possibly the bottom of the regulator , and even the inlet and parts of the outside meter. This is just to clear up the comment that we don’t have to worry about freezing any more. This is for  the newcomers. 

pecmsg

dullknife1 said:

One last  bite to chew on. There is always a chance of freezing in a gas service. As we all know water runs downhill,  not if, but when we get a crack in the gas main we get water seepage into that main that’s why we put drip legs at the lower end of the mains. Sometimes they fill up before they get pumped out, when this happens, the possibility of gas flowing to a house service will pick up the moisture and freeze going through the outside, shut off cock or possibly the bottom of the regulator , and even the inlet and parts of the outside meter. This is just to clear up the comment that we don’t have to worry about freezing any more. This is for  the newcomers. 

You’ve got a better chance of hitting the lottery!

CFH

dullknife1 said:

One last  bite to chew on. There is always a chance of freezing in a gas service. As we all know water runs downhill,  not if, but when we get a crack in the gas main we get water seepage into that main that’s why we put drip legs at the lower end of the mains. Sometimes they fill up before they get pumped out, when this happens, the possibility of gas flowing to a house service will pick up the moisture and freeze going through the outside, shut off cock or possibly the bottom of the regulator , and even the inlet and parts of the outside meter. This is just to clear up the comment that we don’t have to worry about freezing any more. This is for  the newcomers. 

If that is the case all the gas generators installed on Long Island would be in peril. I hope that is not the case but I could be wrong. It would be bad because I just installed many of them. I just had a meter set today. My whole union thing started with a generator. Manufactures specify a sediment trap on some appliances. If freezing is the case we may need to heat trace lines on pool heaters generators etc. If you work for the gas company and have some knowledge I am not aware of I will definitely listen. I will listen even if you don't work for the gas company but have personal knowledge to share with us. I make it a point to listen to gas company employees they have a lot of knowledge I am not aware of especially in the commercial area the same goes with experienced plumbing inspectors. I brought up the sediment trap because a inspector decided on his own even though the fuel gas code states otherwise that they would not accept the sediment trap built into the Generac generators because it was on the inside of the unit. No where does the NYS fuel gas code state that sediment traps need to be readily accessible. If you read my post they are about what the code says not peoples or my interpretation of the code.
I am doing this so a plumber can follow the code and pass a inspection not to start a fight or put somebody down. If you can show me where the NYS fuel gas code prohibits unions or concealed sediment traps I will change my tune.

dullknife1

I have pumped, a lot of drips, and I have changed a lot of frozen outside gas meters, and I’ve poured, alcohol down an 1 1/4”  o/s shut off cock to get people heat. I would’ve rather hit the lottery.

pecmsg

My personal home I came off the main in the boiler room with a shut off and a sediment trap than ran up and outside to the BBQ. Inspector approved it. 

CFH

ok

Big_Burner

The local Gas Utility may have differences with the NFPA requirements
No Unions in my area, ...But Couplings are fine

CFH

CFH said:

Change the code to prohibit unions if they are so dangerous. Inspectors do not write the codes in NYS, Why bother having a code if someone is going to make up their own version even though there is a clearly written version. NFPA 54 2006 clearly had unions in the code and they were in a separate section from the appliance shut off valves, the code should be the code. 40+ years of inspections there were a lot of different versions of the same code. While I was getting a generator inspected I was discussing the sediment trap built into the Generac generators that make them easy to pipe. The inspector replied that they were discussing that and may require an additional sediment trap outside the generator, the code states they are only required if they are not built into the appliance. Was that new rule another way to fail a good plumber for no reason causing them to get another inspection and redoing piping that is not necessary. Inspectors do not write codes in NYS. The code is clear on sediment traps

[NY] 104.2 Waivers, variances, and modifications. Noth-
ing in this code shall be construed as permitting any building
official or any authority having jurisdiction to waive, vary,
modify, or otherwise alter any provision or requirement of
this code or any other provision or requirement of the Uni-
form Code. Provisions or requirements of the Uniform Code
may be varied or modified only in accordance with proce-
dures established by Part 1205 or by such other regulations
as may hereafter be promulgated by the Secretary of State
pursuant to Section 381(1)(f) of the Executive Law
[NY] 104.3 Alternative materials, equipment, appliances,
designs, and methods of construction. The provisions of
this code are not intended to prevent the installation of any
materials, equipment, or appliances not specifically pre-
scribed by this code, or to prohibit any designs or methods of
construction not specifically prescribed by this code, pro-
vided that such alternative materials, equipment, appliances,
designs, or methods of construction (1) are not specifically
prohibited by any provision of this code, by any other provi-
sion of the Uniform Code, or by the Energy Code and (2)
shall have been approved, in writing, by the building official.
Alternative materials, equipment, appliances, designs, or
methods of construction may be approved only when the
building official shall have determined, in writing, that such
alternative is:
1. Satisfactory and complies with the intent of the provi-
sions and requirements of the Uniform Code, and
2. Not less than the equivalent of that prescribed in the
Uniform Code in quality, strength, effectiveness, fire
resistance, durability, and safety.
Nothing in this section shall be construed as permitting any
building official or any authority having jurisdiction to
waive, vary, modify or otherwise alter any provision or
requirement of this code or any other provision or require-
ment of the Uniform Code. Provisions or requirements of the
Uniform Code may be varied or modified only pursuant to
procedures established in Part 1205 or by such other regula-
tions as may hereafter be promulgated by the Secretary of
State pursuant to Section 381(1)(f) of the Executive Law

CFH

ok

CFH

See section of code below

CFH

347 said:

Hello All, I need a little help in finding out about allowable fitting location on gas piping. I looked in the NFPA54 book and could not find what I needed.
I have a job that has a union in the middle of a gas pipe in crawl space . I know you need a union near an appliance (after the service valve) to connect it. I remember reading that a union cannot be installed in the middle of a gas pipe accessible or not. I'm looking for the wording in the Fuel gas code but I'm not having any luck. Does anyone know what chapter or section I need to look for this information?
Thanks in advance.

[NY] 104.2 Waivers, variances, and modifications. Noth-
ing in this code shall be construed as permitting any building
official or any authority having jurisdiction to waive, vary,
modify, or otherwise alter any provision or requirement of
this code or any other provision or requirement of the Uni-
form Code. Provisions or requirements of the Uniform Code
may be varied or modified only in accordance with proce-
dures established by Part 1205 or by such other regulations
as may hereafter be promulgated by the Secretary of State
pursuant to Section 381(1)(f) of the Executive Law
[NY] 104.3 Alternative materials, equipment, appliances,
designs, and methods of construction. The provisions of
this code are not intended to prevent the installation of any
materials, equipment, or appliances not specifically pre-
scribed by this code, or to prohibit any designs or methods of
construction not specifically prescribed by this code, pro-
vided that such alternative materials, equipment, appliances,
designs, or methods of construction (1) are not specifically
prohibited by any provision of this code, by any other provi-
sion of the Uniform Code, or by the Energy Code and (2)
shall have been approved, in writing, by the building official.
Alternative materials, equipment, appliances, designs, or
methods of construction may be approved only when the
building official shall have determined, in writing, that such
alternative is:
1. Satisfactory and complies with the intent of the provi-
sions and requirements of the Uniform Code, and
2. Not less than the equivalent of that prescribed in the
Uniform Code in quality, strength, effectiveness, fire
resistance, durability, and safety.
Nothing in this section shall be construed as permitting any
building official or any authority having jurisdiction to
waive, vary, modify or otherwise alter any provision or
requirement of this code or any other provision or require-
ment of the Uniform Code. Provisions or requirements of the
Uniform Code may be varied or modified only pursuant to
procedures established in Part 1205 or by such other regula-
tions as may hereafter be promulgated by the Secretary of
State pursuant to Section 381(1)(f) of the Executive Law

CFH

mattmia2 said:

Could always use right/left fittings...

This says left right coupling prohibited in concealed spaces

CFH

ratio said:

347 said:

Town of North hempstead,N Y
Spoke an inspector today. He said he would not pass any union unless it's after a valve near an appliance. He could show me in any books though.

I'm assuming you meant "couldn't".

While I'd not put a union anywhere its not needed, the inspector is supposed to enforce the Code, not his favorite practices. That generally means he's got to be able to point it out in text somewhere; can't show it in the book isn't something I'd willingly let slide.

[NY] 104.2 Waivers, variances, and modifications. Noth-
ing in this code shall be construed as permitting any building
official or any authority having jurisdiction to waive, vary,
modify, or otherwise alter any provision or requirement of
this code or any other provision or requirement of the Uni-
form Code. Provisions or requirements of the Uniform Code
may be varied or modified only in accordance with proce-
dures established by Part 1205 or by such other regulations
as may hereafter be promulgated by the Secretary of State
pursuant to Section 381(1)(f) of the Executive Law
[NY] 104.3 Alternative materials, equipment, appliances,
designs, and methods of construction. The provisions of
this code are not intended to prevent the installation of any
materials, equipment, or appliances not specifically pre-
scribed by this code, or to prohibit any designs or methods of
construction not specifically prescribed by this code, pro-
vided that such alternative materials, equipment, appliances,
designs, or methods of construction (1) are not specifically
prohibited by any provision of this code, by any other provi-
sion of the Uniform Code, or by the Energy Code and (2)
shall have been approved, in writing, by the building official.
Alternative materials, equipment, appliances, designs, or
methods of construction may be approved only when the
building official shall have determined, in writing, that such
alternative is:
1. Satisfactory and complies with the intent of the provi-
sions and requirements of the Uniform Code, and
2. Not less than the equivalent of that prescribed in the
Uniform Code in quality, strength, effectiveness, fire
resistance, durability, and safety.
Nothing in this section shall be construed as permitting any
building official or any authority having jurisdiction to
waive, vary, modify or otherwise alter any provision or
requirement of this code or any other provision or require-
ment of the Uniform Code. Provisions or requirements of the
Uniform Code may be varied or modified only pursuant to
procedures established in Part 1205 or by such other regula-
tions as may hereafter be promulgated by the Secretary of
State pursuant to Section 381(1)(f) of the Executive Law

CFH

rick in Alaska said:

Sorry. Unions are also allowed at appliance locations. They just didn't want them in the main line piping. As with all "rules", that also is totally up the inspector. I guess the golden rule is to know the inspector so you know what they look for.
Rick

Please show me where is says in the NYS fuel gas code it states "unions are strictly prohibited except"
Here is the link

https://dos.ny.gov/system/files/documents/2020/09/2020-fgcnys-november-2019.pdf

Please read below. I believe the code clearly states The provisions of
this code are not intended to prevent the installation of any
materials, equipment, or appliances not specifically pre-
scribed by this code, or to prohibit any designs or methods of
construction not specifically prescribed by this code

[NY] 104.2 Waivers, variances, and modifications. Noth-
ing in this code shall be construed as permitting any building
official or any authority having jurisdiction to waive, vary,
modify, or otherwise alter any provision or requirement of
this code or any other provision or requirement of the Uni-
form Code. Provisions or requirements of the Uniform Code
may be varied or modified only in accordance with proce-
dures established by Part 1205 or by such other regulations
as may hereafter be promulgated by the Secretary of State
pursuant to Section 381(1)(f) of the Executive Law
[NY] 104.3 Alternative materials, equipment, appliances,
designs, and methods of construction. The provisions of
this code are not intended to prevent the installation of any
materials, equipment, or appliances not specifically pre-
scribed by this code, or to prohibit any designs or methods of
construction not specifically prescribed by this code, pro-
vided that such alternative materials, equipment, appliances,
designs, or methods of construction (1) are not specifically
prohibited by any provision of this code, by any other provi-
sion of the Uniform Code, or by the Energy Code and (2)
shall have been approved, in writing, by the building official.
Alternative materials, equipment, appliances, designs, or
methods of construction may be approved only when the
building official shall have determined, in writing, that such
alternative is:
1. Satisfactory and complies with the intent of the provi-
sions and requirements of the Uniform Code, and
2. Not less than the equivalent of that prescribed in the
Uniform Code in quality, strength, effectiveness, fire
resistance, durability, and safety.
Nothing in this section shall be construed as permitting any
building official or any authority having jurisdiction to
waive, vary, modify or otherwise alter any provision or
requirement of this code or any other provision or require-
ment of the Uniform Code. Provisions or requirements of the
Uniform Code may be varied or modified only pursuant to
procedures established in Part 1205 or by such other regula-
tions as may hereafter be promulgated by the Secretary of
State pursuant to Section 381(1)(f) of the Executive Law

CFH

Ironman said:

I'm not follow some of the reasoning here. The code says not in a concealed location, and I get that.

What's the reasoning that says it's okay at an appliance, but not elsewhere? If the concern is it leaking, what's the difference if it leaks at an appliance or in the middle of a run? Again, assuming it's not concealed. A leak is a leak anywhere on the line.

Ironman please read below.
This is only for the NYS fuel gas code in section 103 they mention Nassau County

Here is the link to the code. If you type Ctrl F you can search for unions on see if they are prohibited.
https://dos.ny.gov/system/files/documents/2020/09/2020-fgcnys-november-2019.pdf

Please read below. I believe the code clearly states
The provisions of
this code are not intended to prevent the installation of any
materials, equipment, or appliances not specifically pre-
scribed by this code, or to prohibit any designs or methods of
construction not specifically prescribed by this code

[NY] 104.2 Waivers, variances, and modifications. Noth-
ing in this code shall be construed as permitting any building
official or any authority having jurisdiction to waive, vary,
modify, or otherwise alter any provision or requirement of
this code or any other provision or requirement of the Uni-
form Code. Provisions or requirements of the Uniform Code
may be varied or modified only in accordance with proce-
dures established by Part 1205 or by such other regulations
as may hereafter be promulgated by the Secretary of State
pursuant to Section 381(1)(f) of the Executive Law
[NY] 104.3 Alternative materials, equipment, appliances,
designs, and methods of construction. The provisions of
this code are not intended to prevent the installation of any
materials, equipment, or appliances not specifically pre-
scribed by this code, or to prohibit any designs or methods of
construction not specifically prescribed by this code, pro-
vided that such alternative materials, equipment, appliances,
designs, or methods of construction (1) are not specifically
prohibited by any provision of this code, by any other provi-
sion of the Uniform Code, or by the Energy Code and (2)
shall have been approved, in writing, by the building official.
Alternative materials, equipment, appliances, designs, or
methods of construction may be approved only when the
building official shall have determined, in writing, that such
alternative is:
1. Satisfactory and complies with the intent of the provi-
sions and requirements of the Uniform Code, and
2. Not less than the equivalent of that prescribed in the
Uniform Code in quality, strength, effectiveness, fire
resistance, durability, and safety.
Nothing in this section shall be construed as permitting any
building official or any authority having jurisdiction to
waive, vary, modify or otherwise alter any provision or
requirement of this code or any other provision or require-
ment of the Uniform Code. Provisions or requirements of the
Uniform Code may be varied or modified only pursuant to
procedures established in Part 1205 or by such other regula-
tions as may hereafter be promulgated by the Secretary of
State pursuant to Section 381(1)(f) of the Executive Law

CFH

347 said:

Town of North hempstead,N Y
Spoke an inspector today. He said he would not pass any union unless it's after a valve near an appliance. He could show me in any books though.

The provisions of
this code are not intended to prevent the installation of any
materials, equipment, or appliances not specifically pre-
scribed by this code, or to prohibit any designs or methods of
construction not specifically prescribed by this code,

https://dos.ny.gov/system/files/documents/2020/09/2020-fgcnys-november-2019.pdf

Please read below. I believe the code clearly states inspectors cannot change the code to prohibit things that are not clearly prohibited.

The provisions of
this code are not intended to prevent the installation of any
materials, equipment, or appliances not specifically pre-
scribed by this code, or to prohibit any designs or methods of
construction not specifically prescribed by this code

[NY] 104.2 Waivers, variances, and modifications. Noth-
ing in this code shall be construed as permitting any building
official or any authority having jurisdiction to waive, vary,
modify, or otherwise alter any provision or requirement of
this code or any other provision or requirement of the Uni-
form Code. Provisions or requirements of the Uniform Code
may be varied or modified only in accordance with proce-
dures established by Part 1205 or by such other regulations
as may hereafter be promulgated by the Secretary of State
pursuant to Section 381(1)(f) of the Executive Law
[NY] 104.3 Alternative materials, equipment, appliances,
designs, and methods of construction. The provisions of
this code are not intended to prevent the installation of any
materials, equipment, or appliances not specifically pre-
scribed by this code, or to prohibit any designs or methods of
construction not specifically prescribed by this code, pro-
vided that such alternative materials, equipment, appliances,
designs, or methods of construction (1) are not specifically
prohibited by any provision of this code, by any other provi-
sion of the Uniform Code, or by the Energy Code and (2)
shall have been approved, in writing, by the building official.
Alternative materials, equipment, appliances, designs, or
methods of construction may be approved only when the
building official shall have determined, in writing, that such
alternative is:
1. Satisfactory and complies with the intent of the provi-
sions and requirements of the Uniform Code, and
2. Not less than the equivalent of that prescribed in the
Uniform Code in quality, strength, effectiveness, fire
resistance, durability, and safety.
Nothing in this section shall be construed as permitting any
building official or any authority having jurisdiction to
waive, vary, modify or otherwise alter any provision or
requirement of this code or any other provision or require-
ment of the Uniform Code. Provisions or requirements of the
Uniform Code may be varied or modified only pursuant to
procedures established in Part 1205 or by such other regula-
tions as may hereafter be promulgated by the Secretary of
State pursuant to Section 381(1)(f) of the Executive Law

CFH

347 said:

Town of North hempstead,N Y
Spoke an inspector today. He said he would not pass any union unless it's after a valve near an appliance. He could show me in any books though.

[NY] 104.2 Waivers, variances, and modifications. Noth-
ing in this code shall be construed as permitting any building
official or any authority having jurisdiction to waive, vary,
modify, or otherwise alter any provision or requirement of
this code or any other provision or requirement of the Uni-
form Code. Provisions or requirements of the Uniform Code
may be varied or modified only in accordance with proce-
dures established by Part 1205 or by such other regulations
as may hereafter be promulgated by the Secretary of State
pursuant to Section 381(1)(f) of the Executive Law
[NY] 104.3 Alternative materials, equipment, appliances,
designs, and methods of construction. The provisions of
this code are not intended to prevent the installation of any
materials, equipment, or appliances not specifically pre-
scribed by this code, or to prohibit any designs or methods of
construction not specifically prescribed by this code, pro-
vided that such alternative materials, equipment, appliances,
designs, or methods of construction (1) are not specifically
prohibited by any provision of this code, by any other provi-
sion of the Uniform Code, or by the Energy Code and (2)
shall have been approved, in writing, by the building official.
Alternative materials, equipment, appliances, designs, or
methods of construction may be approved only when the
building official shall have determined, in writing, that such
alternative is:
1. Satisfactory and complies with the intent of the provi-
sions and requirements of the Uniform Code, and
2. Not less than the equivalent of that prescribed in the
Uniform Code in quality, strength, effectiveness, fire
resistance, durability, and safety.
Nothing in this section shall be construed as permitting any
building official or any authority having jurisdiction to
waive, vary, modify or otherwise alter any provision or
requirement of this code or any other provision or require-
ment of the Uniform Code. Provisions or requirements of the
Uniform Code may be varied or modified only pursuant to
procedures established in Part 1205 or by such other regula-
tions as may hereafter be promulgated by the Secretary of
State pursuant to Section 381(1)(f) of the Executive Law

CFH

ratio said:

347 said:

Town of North hempstead,N Y
Spoke an inspector today. He said he would not pass any union unless it's after a valve near an appliance. He could show me in any books though.

I'm assuming you meant "couldn't".

While I'd not put a union anywhere its not needed, the inspector is supposed to enforce the Code, not his favorite practices. That generally means he's got to be able to point it out in text somewhere; can't show it in the book isn't something I'd willingly let slide.